Full Version: Elite Watchers ...
Did anyone else feel a bad vibe, when they read Serrin Shamander's description in Street Legends? Who in thair right mind will call a a secret bloodmage's elite watchers (dressed in black no less) SS watchers?! Maybe I am oversensetized to this issue, like the ppl complaining about the fleshfinder crap in WAR (don't mention it further, this is not another WAR thread), then again, maybe I am not..
QUOTE (MK Ultra @ Oct 4 2011, 09:19 AM) 
Did anyone else feel a bad vibe, when they read Serrin Shamander's description in Street Legends? Who in thair right mind will call a a secret bloodmage's elite watchers (dressed in black no less) SS watchers?! Maybe I am oversensetized to this issue, like the ppl complaining about the fleshfinder crap in WAR (don't mention it further, this is not another WAR thread), then again, maybe I am not..
They are called SS watchers because they are Serrin Shamander's watchers.
Word association is silly sometimes. Not even all actual Nazi SS Units were killing civilians in camps. Some were just elite military units.
I don't have War, so I'm not sure what this fleshfinder crap is.
I don't have War, so I'm not sure what this fleshfinder crap is.
QUOTE (Bigity @ Oct 4 2011, 10:07 AM)
I don't have War, so I'm not sure what this fleshfinder crap is.
It's a magic, cursed scalpel.
The nice thing about games like RPG's is you don't have to use the story ideas and NPC's the writer's present. I can honestly say not a single major printed player in Shadowrun has ever shown their face in one of my games, and I've played near continually since 1989.
Don't like it? Don't use it.
Don't like it? Don't use it.
QUOTE (Paul @ Oct 4 2011, 10:36 AM)
The nice thing about games like RPG's is you don't have to use the story ideas and NPC's the writer's present. I can honestly say not a single major printed player in Shadowrun has ever shown their face in one of my games, and I've played near continually since 1989.
Don't like it? Don't use it.
Don't like it? Don't use it.
This is true, as well.
If we weren't offended by the humanis members in KKK costumes in SR1, I don't think we're going to be offended by SS anything in the same game. This is a game where metahumans were rounded up, put in warehouses "for their own protection" and then the warehouses were set on fire while the Metroplex Guard watched.
I can understand you being offended, and if you can't keep real life and imaginary life truly separate, then this might not be the best game for you.
I can understand you being offended, and if you can't keep real life and imaginary life truly separate, then this might not be the best game for you.
QUOTE (Bigity @ Oct 4 2011, 02:07 PM)
Some were just elite military units.
One word: Bullshit. The prime criterion for recruitment and advancement in the SS was phrenology and reciting the party line, with lots of brawling experience being a bonus and not a sign of lacking discipline. None of them were "just soldiers" and their military performance was just what one would expect from a unit which values political reliability more than military expertise: Abysmal
But anyway, the "SS Watchers" are obviously named after Serrin Shamander and not some uniformed thugs.
QUOTE (MK Ultra @ Oct 4 2011, 07:19 AM)
Did anyone else feel a bad vibe, when they read Serrin Shamander's description in Street Legends? Who in thair right mind will call a a secret bloodmage's elite watchers (dressed in black no less) SS watchers?! Maybe I am oversensetized to this issue, like the ppl complaining about the fleshfinder crap in WAR (don't mention it further, this is not another WAR thread), then again, maybe I am not..
If you didn't want War! coming up you likely shouldn't have mentioned it, but yea you are being pretty oversensitive. I mean you yoruself chose the name of highly controversial CIA human testing program carried out against it's own citizens.
I am not really offended, itīs more that it strikes me as odd and I was wondering if anyone had the same association. I donīt mind when such a conection is intended either (Humanis or Alamos, i.e.), but when it is unintended, it just looks slopy.
QUOTE (MK Ultra @ Oct 4 2011, 11:59 AM)
I am not really offended, itīs more that it strikes me as odd and I was wondering if anyone had the same association. I donīt mind when such a conection is intended either (Humanis or Alamos, i.e.), but when it is unintended, it just looks slopy.
Well, he does burn people who get him angry, mage-Hulk style.
Well I mean we are discussing a roleplaying game not scientific method bud. There's going to be some sloppy and loose ends. I've yet to read the section you're discussing, as of now. But I'll try to come back and offer some more coherent input once I do.
Well, you just gotta love those Boss suits.
The United States has an SS IRL.
It's called the Secret Service. Which, ironically, isn't so secret.
EDIT: BTW, go ahead and ask them about Steve Jackson Games.
It's called the Secret Service. Which, ironically, isn't so secret.
EDIT: BTW, go ahead and ask them about Steve Jackson Games.
QUOTE (HunterHerne @ Oct 4 2011, 04:02 PM)
Well, he does burn people who get him angry, mage-Hulk style.
Great, now I will imagine Ire looking like Lou Ferrigno on top of that
QUOTE (MK Ultra @ Oct 4 2011, 10:22 AM)
Great, now I will imagine Ire looking like Lou Ferrigno on top of that
Don't forget the limp.
QUOTE (CanRay @ Oct 4 2011, 04:21 PM)
The United States has an SS IRL.
It's called the Secret Service. Which, ironically, isn't so secret.
EDIT: BTW, go ahead and ask them about Steve Jackson Games.
It's called the Secret Service. Which, ironically, isn't so secret.
EDIT: BTW, go ahead and ask them about Steve Jackson Games.
Funny that, of course I know about those dudes, but they never pop up in my mind in response to the abbreviation. Are they really abbreviated SS though?
Depends on what crowd you're in. The professional interactions I've had with the Secret Service has always seen them use the full title.
I think sometimes folks just find unfortunate coincidences and turn them into things to be offended over.
Not universally, however. There were occasionally times their rabid fanaticism let them pull off the nearly-impossible, which actually only increased the scorn regular Wehrmacht felt towards them. Crazed thugs that completely believed in Hitler and Himmler's nonsense had a tendency to follow orders (as long as that order was "attack") without the slightest regard to their own casualties. Their (small? brainwashed?) minds only really had room for obedience and hatred, and when the battle lined up just right, that gave them the chance to do some crazy shit without paying any attention to how many of their own guys were getting shot to pieces in the process. I remember Hoepner dismissing their attitude with "That is the mentality of a butcher," which only helped to increase the rivalries between Wehrmacht and SS. At any rate, they stand as a chilling example of what unchecked fanaticism can do.
QUOTE (Sengir @ Oct 4 2011, 09:21 AM)
None of them were "just soldiers" and their military performance was just what one would expect from a unit which values political reliability more than military expertise: Abysmal
Not universally, however. There were occasionally times their rabid fanaticism let them pull off the nearly-impossible, which actually only increased the scorn regular Wehrmacht felt towards them. Crazed thugs that completely believed in Hitler and Himmler's nonsense had a tendency to follow orders (as long as that order was "attack") without the slightest regard to their own casualties. Their (small? brainwashed?) minds only really had room for obedience and hatred, and when the battle lined up just right, that gave them the chance to do some crazy shit without paying any attention to how many of their own guys were getting shot to pieces in the process. I remember Hoepner dismissing their attitude with "That is the mentality of a butcher," which only helped to increase the rivalries between Wehrmacht and SS. At any rate, they stand as a chilling example of what unchecked fanaticism can do.
QUOTE (Critias @ Oct 4 2011, 03:44 PM)
Not universally, however. There were occasionally times their rabid fanaticism let them pull off the nearly-impossible
And there were even more times their bravado and lack of military competence got them into impossible situations. Even if the W-SS got the job done, it often was at a tremendous cost -- not because they heroically sacrificed themselves to achieve the impossible, but mostly because of poor training especially among officers and NCOs.
QUOTE (Sengir @ Oct 4 2011, 08:21 AM)
One word: Bullshit. The prime criterion for recruitment and advancement in the SS was phrenology and reciting the party line, with lots of brawling experience being a bonus and not a sign of lacking discipline. None of them were "just soldiers" and their military performance was just what one would expect from a unit which values political reliability more than military expertise: Abysmal
But anyway, the "SS Watchers" are obviously named after Serrin Shamander and not some uniformed thugs.
But anyway, the "SS Watchers" are obviously named after Serrin Shamander and not some uniformed thugs.
I'm wondering if you are confusing the Universal SS and Death's Heads Units with the Waffen SS. Waffen SS units were often non-Germans, some were even conscripts as the war progressed. Granted, this was after the war began, it was indeed formed from party supporters. The performance sucked at first, but markedly improved.
You'd be hard pressed to find any German officers at least not verbally touting the Nazi party line during the war (the bulk of it anyway).
Anyways, to get past all that stuff, I don't think using a couple of S's together is an issue. SR is a game that routinely talks about selling people to ghouls, or benraku parlors, etc.
As much as I could keep going, I think we're getting a bit off topic (inasmuch as we're veering into political territory, I think, or at least tap-dancing close to it). Suffice it to say (a) the SS obviously remain a controversial organization even all these decades later, but (b) it's likely just an unfortunate coincidence, given Shamander's initials, rather than a purposeful glorification attempt.
Still, might want to think of a different name for the German edition of Street Legends. They have laws against that sort of thing, IIRC.
Which makes FPSes really, really hard to sell over there, considering the number of Nazis you end up shooting. Honestly, I figure I've (virtual) killed more than my Grandfather did IRL. (Of course, that was because he was a truck driver and diesel engine mechanic...).
Which makes FPSes really, really hard to sell over there, considering the number of Nazis you end up shooting. Honestly, I figure I've (virtual) killed more than my Grandfather did IRL. (Of course, that was because he was a truck driver and diesel engine mechanic...).
QUOTE (CanRay @ Oct 4 2011, 08:46 PM)
Still, might want to think of a different name for the German edition of Street Legends. They have laws against that sort of thing, IIRC.
Actually using the Letters SS is not restricted at all, only using the rune-style SS-emblem is, IIRC.
On Topic:
I didnt suspect anyone put this in on purpose to allude to the historical organisation. Thats not really my point. It is not rocketscience, but a little care dosnīt hurt either.
Can it be rocketsurgery?
Well, if I can be a brainscientist, you sure can be a rocketsurgeon 
QUOTE (CanRay @ Oct 4 2011, 08:21 AM)
EDIT: BTW, go ahead and ask them about Steve Jackson Games.
Man I -have- that game sitting in a drawer. It even has a note to all secret service personell in the manual. Something about not being able to hack computers by rolling dice.
QUOTE (MK Ultra @ Oct 4 2011, 01:09 PM)
Well, if I can be a brainscientist, you sure can be a rocketsurgeon
For you guys: Rocket Surgeon
[ Spoiler ]
I don't know how to spoiler tag things, so I apologize. Also, The character's on Omae.
QUOTE (ggodo @ Oct 5 2011, 12:05 AM)
I don't know how to spoiler tag things, so I apologize.
[/spoiler]
QUOTE (MK Ultra @ Oct 4 2011, 02:00 PM)
a little care doesnīt hurt either.
I'm still lost on where this line is that you're drawing, given your name, the previous existing content of Shadowrun, etc.
QUOTE (Udoshi @ Oct 4 2011, 03:59 PM)
Man I -have- that game sitting in a drawer. It even has a note to all secret service personell in the manual. Something about not being able to hack computers by rolling dice.
I still have the T-Shirt they gave me after the trial.
"Don't tell me no lies and keep your hands to yourself"
QUOTE (MK Ultra @ Oct 4 2011, 09:59 AM)
I am not really offended, itīs more that it strikes me as odd and I was wondering if anyone had the same association. I donīt mind when such a conection is intended either (Humanis or Alamos, i.e.), but when it is unintended, it just looks slopy.
Why? Again you show a complete and utter lack of common sense, irony, or just a over abundance of hypocrisy.
But lets put it this way, given a large enough audience you will never be able to produce a work of fiction that doesn't offend someone. Hell half the time your work of non-fiction will offend someone. Your beef is that two letters entirely appropriate to be used in English context as a characters initials shouldn't be used because they were the initials of a group using a completely different language. My two bits? RPG's might not be for you, they'll occasionally cross into territories that make you uncomfortable.
QUOTE (Udoshi @ Oct 4 2011, 04:59 PM)
Man I -have- that game sitting in a drawer. It even has a note to all secret service personell in the manual. Something about not being able to hack computers by rolling dice.
Been looking for it for years...
QUOTE (LurkerOutThere @ Oct 5 2011, 01:18 AM)
My two bits? RPG's might not be for you, they'll occasionally cross into territories that make you uncomfortable.
Dude, I am very relaxed about it. Just struck me as odd, as posted before, thatīs all.
QUOTE (MK Ultra @ Oct 5 2011, 09:13 AM)
Dude, I am very relaxed about it.
QUOTE (MK Ultra @ Oct 4 2011, 07:19 AM)
Who in thair right mind...
Now I can't figure out where you draw the line at relaxed, offensive, or irony.
QUOTE (suoq @ Oct 5 2011, 09:29 AM)
Now I can't figure out where you draw the line at relaxed, offensive, or irony.
Hipster?
Well, ok, what ever. certainly didnīt mean to be offensive
So I cracked open Street Legends, after I finished vomiting up the stench of Mary Sue, recycled plots and reprints I came across the section in question. In the context my initial impression of "classic Man in Black" is Johnny Cash.
QUOTE (Bigity @ Oct 4 2011, 06:03 PM)
Waffen SS units were often non-Germans, some were even conscripts as the war progressed
So? In case you didn't get that memo, the NS world view was about races, not what you passport said about nationality. Therefore German Jews = bad, Croatian Ustaa = Good.
QUOTE
The performance sucked at first, but markedly improved.
Right, after many of the officers with some semblance of throughout training had gotten themselves killed and had to be replaced by those who made up their lack of tactical thinking with even more bravado, performance obviously improved...
Or do you mean behind the front, where they obviously got more effective?
QUOTE
You'd be hard pressed to find any German officers at least not verbally touting the Nazi party line during the war (the bulk of it anyway).
There is a difference between toeing the party line and being a member of the ideological elite cadre. The (W) SS was at all times planned and implemented as the latter and never just a military unit.
PS: You might also want to think about the supposed difference between the Division Totenkopf of the Waffen-SS and the Waffen-SS again...
IIRC: The German SS units were considered elite units and very dependable. But that was typical of the units raised from the 1930's to somewhere in 1943. It was not so much their training, but the fact that they typically had a high ratio of veterens, party loyalists and got first dibbs on new tanks and equipment. At the end of the war though, they tried recruiting just about anyone they thought could fight. Training for these units was non-existant, and equipment consisted of mostly small arms and panzerfausts.
Back OT--No I don't think it has any reference to the SS.
Back OT--No I don't think it has any reference to the SS.
Sheesh - we use it at work to donate a Stainless Steel surface - in terms of SR's timeline, it's like calling a group of protagonists "Roundheads". Only historians would get the gist.
-Tir
-Tir
QUOTE (MK Ultra @ Oct 4 2011, 02:19 PM)
Did anyone else feel a bad vibe, when they read Serrin Shamander's description in Street Legends? Who in thair right mind will call a a secret bloodmage's elite watchers (dressed in black no less) SS watchers?! Maybe I am oversensetized to this issue, like the ppl complaining about the fleshfinder crap in WAR (don't mention it further, this is not another WAR thread), then again, maybe I am not..
Serrin Shamandar is a blood mage?!?
You know I totally missed that.
Me too, I didn't get blood magic from his thing, insane, yes. Blood Mage, no.
When did he get insane? Last I recall he was off with his reincarnated girlfriend from Cape Town.
Well, The blurb in Street Legends implied some Multiple Personality issues, with the other being the sadistic magical equivalent to the hulk. Also, he's a sorta father figure to Netcat.
QUOTE (Bigity @ Oct 6 2011, 09:05 PM)
When did he get insane? Last I recall he was off with his reincarnated girlfriend from Cape Town.
When her plane went down during Crash 2.0 with no survivors. Damned souls just can't catch a break!QUOTE (ggodo @ Oct 6 2011, 09:19 PM)
Well, The blurb in Street Legends implied some Multiple Personality issues, with the other being the sadistic magical equivalent to the hulk. Also, he's a sorta father figure to Netcat.
Wonder how far that's going to go. She should be getting some Shadowy Father Figure stuff from Slamm-0!s Dad, after all.And Slamm-0! is probably still getting the, "WHY THE FRAG DIDN'T YOU WRAP IT UP???" whenever Grandpa has to change a diaper.
QUOTE (ggodo @ Oct 7 2011, 04:19 AM)
Well, The blurb in Street Legends implied some Multiple Personality issues, with the other being the sadistic magical equivalent to the hulk. Also, he's a sorta father figure to Netcat.
Well, those make sense.
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