I currently play a street sammy in my weekly game that is using wired reflexes (rating 2). Along with the adrenaline surge quality, I go first in combat, & have 3 initiative passes. However, with all the 'ware & such, my character really isn't subtle & doesn't do well in covert/tactical/urban areas.

So I'm thinking if I get to chance to swap out or play a new character, my next street sam will be more essence friendly & not be packing a ton of cyberware. To retain the "edge" on my opponents, I should get the cultured bioware Synaptic Booster (which is the bioware version of wired reflexes). However, the cost of synaptic boosters is extreme. Should I shell out the 160,000 for a Rating 2 (& keep having 3 IP's), or should I just get the Rating 1 (& only get 2 IP's)? With aderenaline surge, I can keep going first in combat, but then I only get an additional IP to act. For a combat character like myself, is having that 3rd extra IP worth it?

The combat in our games have taken longer than 2 to 3 combat turns, so having extra IP's in those turns have helped. However, the times we have had long fights, it's due to being unable to hurt the opposition due to their high armor or being magical & having ItNW.

I'm unsure of how to go about things... spending an extra 80,000 to go again is costly & cutting back on some gear I could badly use.

The general rule I follows is that if you want to be useful in combat, you need 2 IP, and if you want to be good in combat, you need 3 IP.

Personally, I think Synaptic boosters are a waste at creation. That's 16 BP per init pass that could be spent making you're character better. Wired Reflexes are essence expensive, yes, but they work, and they don't cost such a huge part of you're character. In the long run I think Move-by-Wire systems are the best option for sami's, unless you're so wealthy that the 240,000 nuyen for rating 3 synaptic boosters is possible.

I'm a firm believer in everybody combat having at least 2, preferably 3 IPs. The face and the medic can probably get away with less, but there are definitely midhigh power enemies that'll have 3 IPs. It seems like anyone high threat is going to be three and Gangers will be popping pills to get 2. I don't know how your GM plays it, but that's what I do.

I've seen good arguments on both sides of the synaptic booster vs. Wired Reflexes, and I gotta say, unless you're adept, Wired's the better choice at chargen, and depending on concept getting Move-by-Wire as the end goal is great MBW 2 is just a bit more expensive than Synaptic, and has SO MANY BENEFITS! Of course, you are constantly having mini seizures and may spontaneously kill a room full of people if startled.

Doesn't MBW & WR get caught by cyberware scanners, & SB doesn't? If you get scanned, & the 'ware shows up, better have a good rated fake license for them or else. With the number of AAA neighborhoods my group has been visiting, the threat of getting caught without the right SIN, RFID, & tags have been on the increase. This is why I'm looking to ease up on the 'ware & have easy/legal cyberware & use the bioware as the combat gear I have.

I think the biggest factor is how your home game plays.

4 IP's is just annoying to everyone else, and 3 can be that way as well.

Lately my group has kinda made an agreement to keep it to 2 mostly. It opens up a lot of room for other ware and really is just right to us. Nobody gets left behind and annoyed much, even if they have 1 IP.

From reading your posts I'd say buy a level one synaptic, if security is an issue in your games.

I'll wait & see how more sessions go. If it seems we're not getting run-over in combat anymore due to having more players (as well as we're TRYING to be smarter in combat), I will cut myself down to 2 IP's & see if the playability is still there.

Yeah, you definitely want Synaptic if you spend a lot of time getting scanned. Like I said, it depends a lot. If you're just the muscle, or in a campaign that's in less classy neghborhoods, MBW is king.

Actually, the more I look at it, the more I find Synaptic Boosters is a trap for adepts. With SR4A, and the (admittedly optional) rule from street magic allowing an adept to gain a power point for initiation in place of a metamagic, I don't thing Synaptic Boosters are worth it. Bascially, with karma, powers points are pretty cheap early on. It costs 16 BP to get the booster, plus half a point of magic you're losing(we'll say 5BP for the purposes of argument) for 21 BP total, roughly equal to 42 karma. A point and a half of magic at creation is only 15 BP, and you can make back you're first point spent with only 12 karma(5 for joining a magical group, 7 for a group initiation with an ordeal).

Luckily, I am not an adept. So magic means nothing to me, other than how I can make sure I don't become it's victim/biatch (enter obvious rule #2. Geek/kill the mage first).

The thing I really find that you're paying for with synaptic boosters is that they can't be taken away from you, ever.

Mana static or background won't get rid of adept powers or sustained, because your passes aren't based on magic. They can't be hacked because they're not cyberware - even if your opponent is a skinlink techno, or a mage using control electricity to turn electronics off. And it doesn't show up on a cyberware scanner either.

I think the most cheapest/breakable ways to get extra passes is with drugs, though. Its a temporary boost, but I've found that combat stims aren't too bad on the money. Just make sure you can pass a low threshold addiction test - or take natural immunity.

Heavy Weapons Troll is the only one at my table with 3 IP. He's the main bruiser in combat, but our gun adept makes do well enough with 2 passes. Rigger and Face only have 1 IP (Rigger because drones/VR get him more passes easily enough, Face because he plainly isn't a combat character).

Face has also been known to carry around a Jazz inhaler for when things go pear-shaped. He hasn't had to use it yet though.

I've really thought that way, but I think it is for Synaptic 2 that it becomes profitable. You save 1.5 PP and, and without that optional rule that's a ton. I haven't done the math, but that's the argument I've heard here. Also, maybe not at chargen but later? That'd be something.

Yeah adepts tend to accumulate lots of cash (at least in my experience) so the price isn't that important - s-boosters all the way.

With the way scanners are currently (read: imbalanced), if there's even a remote chance that you'll operate in a better area (let's say B+) at least once per session, then go synaptic. Yes, it's a lot more expensive, but it gets to ignore those scanners outright.

Personally I just *like* SB. WR is useful to start out with, but not for later when you "graduate" to better equipment.

MBW is powerful, but it gives me the creeps. Do I want to spend all my time in a controlled epileptic seizure? Hell no!

SB is best if you're either starved for essence, or if subtlety is really important. In the long run, SB is also cheaper than beta/delta WR in Essence/Nuyen terms.

If you want the subtlety, make sure you review the rest of your implants; bioware is hard to detect, and if you can avoid all the scary-looking cyber, you might pass for a high-energy career wageslave trying to get the edge.

So, SB1 vs. SB2? Does your GM make you buy a whole new SB if you want to upgrade to 2, or can you patch on another SB to your SB1? If you can patch on, SB1 could be good enough to start with, otherwise you should definitely go SB2 and stick with it.

Heh, Adepts need the essence for Toner 4...




Better just remove the scanners from the rules (or gimp them in some way, for instance by making them really big like security walk-through portals. Now the cybered guy can't get on a plane, but that's what you have T-birders for . They make half the game not make sense.


As to the IP thing: It's a group issue. In my group, if anyone has less than 3IPs he'll be bored to hell in fights, since most people have 4. However, that may not be a standard worth aspiring to for many groups. So it's important the players talk it over and make sure that there aren't huge disparities.

Oh yeah. The first item on my wishlist if I ever start playing Kestrel is 160k nuyen for SB2 (even that I took Biocompatibility for Cyberware) and either some handy cyberjunk or Essence-regeneration therapy. Because it's cool to be a speed-demon Street Sam with almost 3 Essence. Heck, upgrading arms to A-ware will put me over 3 after regeneration, so there's a reason for overcoming her dislike towards implants .

Has there ever been an official reason for why the cost of wired reflexes dropped so drastically but the essence cost has remained static?

I have an Infiltrator who avoids combat at any cost. He has only 1IP as a logical consequence. (But a ini boost drug in a breakable tooth, just in case)

I suspect it's cos manufacturing costs always drop over time, but the impact on your meat/mana balance isn't any less.



-k

That you can can't get 1 million nuyen in chargen anymore.

My initial instinct to just agree. And in part I do-the manufacturing costs would indeed drop. I'm just not so sure I agree that the essence loss, or invasiveness would remain the same? I mean look at TV's? Each year they get smaller and better.




Which is what i think the real answer is. Game balance. And I'll be a good soldier and march, and all that...

Actually I meant to say 'That AND you can't get blah blah', but yea

Yeah I figured as much.

Everything above AND they removed Boosted Reflexes from the game.

Also for Adepts without 'ware for extra IPs, Warrior's Way is a very good investment. For 10BP Improved Reflexes I/II/III cost only 1.12/1.88/3 PP and you get all sorts of other discounts. Unfortunately for high physical stats the adept still has to go to 'ware.

And with a Geas (in tandem with the Warriors Way) those numbers become .75/1.25/2...

.75 for up to racial max, 1.5 past...

With geas and way of the warrior (or athlete) its actually half that. In the end you are paying only .37 up to racial max, and .75 after. Sure, its a slight bit more than you pay essence for toner, but no nuyen cost, and initation with a group is cheap, then get power points instead of metamagics...

Not to mention that wares are cutting your magic rating, so dropping your max rating on all your powers. Do you really wanna give up those 6 points of combat sense?

I was sceptical at first about the Ways being worth-while mathematically, but I have to say that at least Warrior's Way can make a quite competent pure adept.
- You can keep 6 magic
- take attribute boost at 1 for still 7 dice (0.25)
- take Ref3 with geas (2)
- take improve combat ability with geas (0.75 for +3)
- take improved other abilities (whatever)
- still have points left, maybe, to pan out, or take improved attribute, which I STILL think is overpiced

Now with just one magic loss that will become one SCARY adept.

Initiation with a group is not cheaper before the third initiation, with an ordeal as well the second and later initiation becomes less expensive. And geasa are their own can of worms. With them the adept cannot only loose his powers because of Background count but also because he does or fails to do something - potentially that loss can even become permanent.

To me Combat Sense 5 is not much worse than 6. While you don't compromise your Magic Attribute you use a very limited resource (Power Points) to get results that can also be achieved otherwise. You will then have less resources for powers that you cannot get through other means (Traceless walk, missile mastery etc.)

@Brainpiercing7.62mm: Has it been confirmed that you are supposed to use the weird math from The Other Game? Using normal calculation Improved Combat Ability 3 costs 3*0.5*0,75*0,75=0,84375

That's another thing... upgrading bioware. I asked before on where I could find rules, but all I found was healing rules regarding hospitalization. I'm thinking my GM won't allow me to "simply" upgrade my bioware. If I got SB: 1, & wanted to go up to SB:2, I would have to buy it for the 160,000 + additional IG expenses. No just paying an additional 80,000 for the next level.

That's the way. You could sell the removed SB 1 though.

But I would only get 30% of the value of SB:1 if I sold it IG to offset my SB:2.

SB is cultured, so it can't be used second-hand.

Woops I forgot about that.

@DamienKnight

Might not be that obvious starting but you will see the differance after 100 Karma.
A adept with 2-3 Points of ware is just kicking the crap out of an adept with none.
Simply because the rules for "rebuying" that point are so damn cheap. In the end each point of ware just costs you 15-25 Karma!
It still depends a bit if you use BP or karma.
But even one point for 25 Karma can pay you out tribble. Just take muscle toner 4 in the game later. To get this effect with magic and buying up will cost you way more than 25 Karma...

Yea, assuming they take max possible magic, an Adept can dump 4PP into getting maxed out Improved Reflexes and then only have 2 PP to get other abilities with.... or they could take Synaptic Boosters 3 leaving them with 4PP to get other abilities with and enough Essence over 4 to squeeze in a few more augs on top of it (especially if you toss on Biocompatability)

The point isn't really "should PC's be running around with 3-4 IP" the point is "with it so easy and cheap to get at chargen, how do you resist it?"

Well, it's part "should PC's be running around with 3-4 IP's". It's more of figuring out who should have 3-4 IP's & who doesn't need it in combat. Usually having more IP's means you can do more in combat & have a pretty high Initiative score. As a street samurai, my role is a combat person who lends fire support & close combat role. So it seems I should have a lot of IP's & a decent Initiative, so I can shoot/blow things up.

@Stalag
Taking Synaptic booster at chargen, is a big hit on cash. Think of what you would be able to get instead of it!
80k are 20BP or 40 Karma, that not a small amount. And thats level 1.

Taking Synaptic Booster 3 leaves you with 60BP or 120 Karma and the costs for restricted gear...
Yes, you do not need to replace it ever, but it is kind of expensive... (If you have maxed out magic, it gets even worse)

16 BP actually, which of course doesn't change the fact that you could spend it on either 4 ranks in a skill, or 1 attribute rank, 1 skill rank and 1 specialization. If, by any chance, that attribute rank would be in Reaction, if you don't play a Mage/Adept/TM, you get 1 Reaction for 10 BP and 1 IP for 6 BP, while not taking a very large hit on your Essence (c'mon, it's .5 Ess vs 2 Ess from a Wired Reflexes 1!). This gets less cost-effective with higher-rank Synboosts, though, especially considering that you'll be left with max. 90k nuyen for "other important gear".

If you spend that 240K (and Restricted Gear) on SB, you have a maximum of 10K left to buy other gear (including lifestyle). Which is tight, but not impossible for an adept, since your adept powers don't cost any money, so you just need a gun, a month of low lifestyle, a paranoid-luddite commlink (you know, the kind you turn off to prevent hacking) and an armored suit. That barely fits into 10K.

However, taking SB2 or some quality to increase starting cash is preferable, because 10K is really tight.

I have never really been able to justify SB3 + restricted gear in character background, but it seems pretty powergamerful to me, even though it takes all your resources it is pretty light on the essence, allowing you to pack in a lot more cyber/bio later on.

Most of the sammie builds I have played with take SB2 for the 3IP/low essence/leaving resources for other cyber/bioware, and on my table that would probably be enough. Recently, a lot of my builds use WR1 'cos it is cheap (2.2BP), gives you a reasonable IP boost and can be taken out later when (if) you can afford that SB2/3 and fill the essence hole with other neat cyber.

MBW I find is best for riggers (specifically MBW2 + restricted gear at CG). The Dodge bonus is great for vehicular Dodge, and the skillwires are useful for those Pilot skills you didn't have the BP/karma to invest in, although with the new costs the skillsofts should usually come later.

For what it's worth, on my table the rule of thumb is:
3/4 IP - main combatants (sammies, phys ads)
2 IP - secondary combatants
1 IP + drugs as necessary - all others

I'm not sure MBW provides any bonuses if you're jumped into a drone...

Heh, haven't started playing/GMing seriously yet, but for me, it looks more like:
1 IP - mooks
2 IP - enough
3 IP - powerful
4 IP - ridiculous
Barely anything you can toss at your players wholesale without the intention of gruesomely murdering the whole team in two-three rounds has 3 IP. Tir Ghosts and Hellhounds mean "you're fucked, guys", unless the PCs are well-advanced, and nothing forbids the GM from "tweaking" the opposition (Tir Ghosts wearing FFBA only? Let's toss some light plate carriers and buckets on them for good measure, not like it's going to hinder them at Bod 4...) when they are. Of course, I see what the IPs are for and I wouldn't make too much fuss if any of my players decided to start with Wired Reflexes - if shit hits the fan, the mooks can have Jazz or Cram at their disposal or just set up ambushes to do anything before the WRs/Adept powers kick in and main hitters in the PC team start dishing out the whoopass. And that can work the other way as well - the Face can have a dose of Jazz to pop in a critical moment.

Well, the cost of additional IPs rises with each IP. +1 is cheap, +2 is expensive-ish, +3 is very expensive. On the other hand, the marginal benefit increases with each increase; +1 is +100% over 1IP; +2 is only +50% over 2IP, and +3 is only +33% over 3IP.

So unless you have unlimited money, +2IP is probably the sweet spot for fighting characters, and +1IP for characters who want to be able to hold their own in a fight.

If money is tight, you could use Genetic Heritage to save some nuyen (though no discount on essence, even though it has become integrated into your basal genome).

yea - don't get me wrong... I'm not advocating 4IP, I'm just saying it's not that hard to get at Chargen and is silly powerful so it's not surprising a lot of players go for it.

Personally I find the whole concept of the "IP" system to be a bit broken....

What did boosted reflexes do? Color me curious about previous editions.

It was a cheaper, less powerful version of Wires (more or less). It made it easy for people to get to the 'okay' range (but then they were kinda stuck there).