QUOTE (LurkerOutThere @ Oct 9 2011, 04:07 PM)
With due respect Grinder this is a more productive and interesting thread then half the ones we have on here. I for one am enjoyign the back and forth. We could start another NAN thread I suppose if everyone likes.
Interesting, aggravating maybe. Productive... I don't know.
So basically I'm going to close this issue now. It's obvious that I can't sway anyone here. So I'm mainly going to add some related chit-chat.
Just once more about the responsibility thing, because there were so many jarring comments again:
In a GM-choice game I don't have any influence other than through my character, really. If the GM takes input then, maybe. In a consensus game every player can actually actively change, or work to change, the outlook of the game. For instance if something is going less well than envisioned, any player can suggest a change. Since I have never even experienced a GM-choice game that ran well, or even had a good GM in a game like that, I can't say how that is supposed to work there. And with my character my main responsibility should be not ruining the fun for the other players, but that's not a thing that affects the core of the game itself.
And just so that you can see where I'm coming from with all this:
In my roleplaying career I've gamed with a few groups of people, mainly one at university, about 10 people, give or take, who generally eventually switched through all the games we played, up to four games a person in a bi-weekly alternating cycle. We did this for years. Do note that there was a good deal of underlying neediness in this: It was just the thing that everyone wanted to join every new game. Still, there was not ONE, no, I correct myself, there was exactly one, person there whom I would trust to run a GM-choice game now. But they all did. That one game by the one good GM excluded (and he ran an informal consensus, too, in that he was usually swayed, eventually), the high points were dick GMs running at least engaging campaigns, but there was just so much of banging my head on the table that it was really hard to take. It obviously went down to lacklustre GMs running lacklustre campaigns. These were not bad people, they just couldn't fathom that I might not quite subscribe to their idea of fun, and they couldn't give me the freedom to have mine, too. And then it was mostly ineptitude: They started out nice, and then suddenly found they couldn't take what the characters could do anymore. And then they started disallowing stuff. In the end, they went right ahead and disallowed all kinds of stuff in the beginning (which is generally fine, at least I know then that I don't even need to join), because they couldn't take it. BUT they always had their favourite friends who could get everything, or at least more. And you could keep telling them exactly how they could improve their games, but they wouldn't listen.
The most common problem in D&D for instance was the "single monster issue". Any single monster either is so strong to tpk the party or quickly dies, because it has half the HP and 1/4 of the turns of the party. And then they began thinking that abilities that quickly killed their single monsters - oh, the terror, SAVE OR DIES! - were inherently broken. So the next step in the evolution was putting three-four identical monsters on the field. Now, again, a single tactic was enough either completely invalidate them, or the multiplied potency of the critter was enough to kill PCs. So again they start disallowing stuff, instead of actually looking at the core of the problem.
The other, more general, problem was that of the whiners: They somehow usually got their way, so basically, if you wanted something - even just a shiny new toy for the character - you had to start whining. And that was the only thing that worked. Sickening, really.
On another note:
Who was the guy that said he disallowed Mind Probe? While I believe that doing that per se is fine, how do you deal with clueless PCs? I even specifically recommended my team mage to take it, because it's just one of those convenient ways of giving information to the PCs without actually having to drop hints, clues and evidence everywhere. Or rather, to take some focus off the matrix for information gathering. As it is, he took Control Thoughts and we can now at least roleplay conversations where I have to answer every question (I do sometimes play the victims as obtuse). This is admittedly more fun than Mind Probe. So you see, I don't think it's wrong to disallow stuff if those things don't fit your campaign, and even in any consensus game the players couldn't just go ahead and re-allow it. Or else the scenario breaks down, and I turn over the GMing hat to someone else. Personally I'm a big friend of thinking around those issues, but I can see that there is a lot of work involved in that, and not everyone might be willing to do it.
As final thought, this is the paragraph I have on the role of the rules and the GM in the gaming system I am writing on at the moment - it's a work in progress, mind you. This was written long before this thread, but I've never actually proof-read it, now I've made minor changes. The full state of this system is... umm... still in infancy. There is definitely stuff missing those two paragraphs...
QUOTE
Rules
Game rules determine what the game world looks like. The rules approximate a certain image of a game world, but this image is in no way rooted in reality. Other factors – drama, ease of play, balance – usually take precedence. Therefore one should not assume that the game world works in any way like the real world. At least it should be clear that in conflicting cases, the rules take precedence over what should be the case when applying real-world principles. Game rules are like laws: They don’t have to make sense, but they are still mostly used as written – unless they turn out so bad in a given situation that they are unusable that way. Like laws, rules can be changed by a legislative body, that is, any group of players and a GM. Changing the rules should require a simple majority vote. In the case of an even number of players and a parity of votes, the GM’s vote counts double, because he likely has the most work with making the rules work. Whenever there is a conflict of opinion on how the rules should be changed, the discussion should be moved to after the gaming session. An interim ruling by the GM takes the place of the rules change.
The GM
As in most other roleplaying games, the GM is the person who builds and designs the game world, plays other characters occupying the world, and provides opposition and conflict for the players. Unlike a lot of other games, the players can have a large influence on the world when using the IRS, because factions are open to player control.
During a gaming session, the GM can make judgements on disputes, when there are no rules available (or known) to cover a certain instance. He is then obliged to look up the problem again after the session, and either provide a rules quote for (or against) his ruling, or request implementation of a house rule to support his ruling. Of course he can also apologize and admit a mistake. Players are free to disagree and offer their own suggestions, as discussed above.
It will be attempted to design the rules for the IRS in such a manner as to provide automatic game balance between the GM and the players, especially between GM controlled factions and player controlled factions, or just the PCs. However, this is not easily achieved, and as such, there might be problems. These should be solved by the group as a whole.
The GM is a sort of moderator, he is not a master, despite the title. He should also not presume to be able to write a plot which the players then follow – in the IRS, there is no plot, there is only story. The key difference being that plot is pre-determined, while story is a dynamic development of events, which is comprised of the engaging exploits of the player characters and their opposition, all resolved using the rules of the game.
So, yeah, this is some of what I envision how things should be.