Way back in the dark days of the CGL/freelancer debacle (and I can think of no better word, I'm afraid, for what went down), there was a whole lot of yapping by a whole lot of people about freelancers getting paid. I wouldn't write for them for a while, and I knew some other freelancers that also held off writing for them. When I mentioned that I had started freelancing for them again, it was after a good bit of discussion with other freelancers and CGL themselves; I didn't re-enter that madhouse willy-nilly.

While the public outcry has long since subsided, I've received several emails and PMs from people since making that decision, asking me, "What the hell are you thinking?! They're just going to screw you again! Have you lost your damn mind?"

So here's a little bit of transparency for some of you people to chew on: I get paid for proofreading, and I get paid for writing. Since my return, I've proofed five products (that I recall; I'd need to double-check my records, but I believe five is correct) and written for one. I have been paid for all five products I've proofed, and while I've not been paid for my writing on Street Legends, that payment is also not contractually due for a few more weeks. I'd love it early, especially my author's copies, but patience has never been my strong suit.

All back payments from the Great Unpleasantness of last year have long since been made good.

Now, this is all connected to me, because I don't know the details of the other freelancers' situations, but the fact is we do talk and no one has, to my recollection, bitched about not getting paid. So what this tells me is that CGL has turned things around fairly successfully. We've put out a great deal of product recently, and I think the quality has been steadily increasing. I think some of the stuff coming down the pipe, my involvement (or lack thereof) notwithstanding, is some pretty good stuff.

So I'm not saying that you have to like what CGL is doing with the line, you don't have to like any of the new products, and you don't have to like the company. But for those of you concerned that they're just going to rip off their freelancers again, I have to say that, from my perspective at the moment, at least...that's not an issue any longer. I sure wouldn't be working on some of the projects I'm preparing to pitch if I thought they were still going to rip me off.

Far as I'm concerned, everything's cool. I don't know that I need shades at the moment, but the future looks bright to me.

Its nice to see some positive info. And love or leave it if your here or the official forums your a fan of Shadowrun and wish it well.

I've proofed two products, and haven't gotten paid. Then again, I kinda refuse to take payment; I agreed to proof out of Love of the Game, not for repayment. That really doesn't bother me.

What is positive is to see that the editors are taking a stronger hand in things, and are more willing to be involved. In my opinion, the past shoddy product was a lack of editorial oversight. I write as well, and a good editor really can bring the best out of good talent.

To be fair, I get paid for proofing in store credit, and wasn't really expecting that. When I received it, though, it was a pleasant surprise.

Okay, first the preemptive color text:

Please review the terms of service before posting in this thread, specifically the bits about trolling, flaming, thread crapping, etc. Patrick has clearly stated the purpose of this thread and it is not to rehash the whole CGL debacle. Please respect that and keep things moving forward.

Now then...

Patrick: I think its great that you are willing to provide this little window into the current state of things. I myself have some concerns about the current state of the play testing process, but I don't think those are appropriate for this thread or even for public discussion, since I don't have all the relevant facts I'm sure. I will say that I do appreciate your effort to bring some transparency.

And I am actually quite pleased to learn that people like Cain are now involved in proofreading (Cain: is this a recent development?). I've known Cain for a long time and as we all know/love/hate he's not one to let things slide if he finds something that bothers him. I think he's exactly the kind of guy we want in that type of role (proofreading, editing, play testing); not the brainless fanboys you find on some sites, or the disgruntled malcontents you find on others. Someone who, like me, loves the game and wants to see it improve, even if we don't necessarily like the creative direction its going. Other people can draw their own conclusions, but as far as I'm concerned if Cain has good things to say, thats saying something.

Thanks for the heads up, Patrick! Good to hear things are back on track again. I was worried when I came back to DumpShock and heard all the misery that was going on.

As for Brainless Fanboy... Was that directed at me?

Not directed at anyone in particular, CanRay.

I just think that after the Late Unpleasantness SR's online community kind of segregated itself and Dumpshock wound up in the middle of a spectrum. I happen to think its a good place to be.

Of course, I'm totally biased...

Thus the smiley, Method. 'Sall good, just poking fun at myself actually.

Wait a minute, DumpShock is the middle of the spectrum? I'd hate the see the dark side of it.

Method: Just a note, consider doing a quick edit to your first post. Patrick has a a... quirk... in that he really, really hates his name being shortened.

And, while I'll echo everything Patrick said, I'm also widely considered a corp shill (Not without some merit, I'll admit), so... *shrug*



Bull

@CanRay: Look for The Gaming Den if you want to see the dark side. It's mostly about (hating) D&D and praising the creations or ideas of a few forum members, but there's also some (hate of) SR4 over there.

Several months old, now. I actually have the literary power to do proofing (was an English major in college) and I do believe in the power of a good editor. The editors have been more than willing to accept even slightly more than significant changes the proofers have suggested, we're slightly more than breathing grammar checkers. I don't receive pay or credit because I refuse to; I threw down a gauntlet and pride (plus obsessive privacy concerns) mean I'll do it because I want to, not because I get rewarded.

To be fair, I probably do have store credit somewhere (as Patrick commented, the proofreaders get paid in store credit) but I honestly don't know how to access it.

Doah! Fixed.

I knew that too and was consciously aware of it the first time I used his name in my post. Sorry Patrick.

I just want to say that I know that I've been one of the more vocal critics of CGL this last year and I know that people are probably sick of me going on about it.

I've always said that my issue has been with management and never the creative folks, because really, where was their fault in this? But Patrick being very transparent about this - Critias being one of the most patient folks on this board - Cain of all people being a proofer (dude, I've watched you go toe to toe, multi-page, with Synner; that's the kind of passion I want to see in a proofer!) and have had quite a few good chats with David Hill, it's starting to make me feel a little bit better about the company.

Don't think I need to mention that Bull has always been good people, right?

I still wish something could be done regarding the management, but that's not really a discussion for this topic, I think.

Thanks for being open and honest with us Patrick and Cain. Let's try to build Dumpshock back up, y'know?

This good stuff coming down the pipe - not asking for specifics but are we talking fluff, crunch or the whole salad?

Yes

Sigh. I'm sure someone will take this the wrong way-but this is honestly my personal opinion, and we all know what the old ditty about opinions is right?

I've played Shadowrun since shortly after it was introduced in 89. I love the game, and for the most part my interactions with the people writing the game material has been positive. (We all have people we like and get along with, and we all have people we don't like or don't get along with right? And since I don't have to have people I don't like at my table, I try to take the view that I can agree to disagree; because as I've said elsewhere it's not like the Gaming Police are showing up at my door step when I botch a rule, or use a concept that isn't canon.) I've played nearly continuously since 89. (Some short breaks due to various real life concerns, as I'm sure we can all relate to.) I've run a biweekly game with a core group of players, who've stuck with me these 20 some odd years. (Some new people added here, some old people dropped there-but a few people have always been there.)

Now my views about the content of the game aside-because ask 50 posters what they want from Shadowrun, or any RPG, and you'll get 65 answers, a kick to the face and venomous duck for your troubles-I have been pretty sad at how poorly it seems to me, as a outsider looking in, the Company producing my game has been. Some of this is the various pay issues I've seen over the years, and have refrained from commenting on; some of it's their choices in how the game is marketed; some of it is their choices in who writes, edits and produces the game. (They may be great people, but we just happen to have differing visions-this is not me vilifying them, or saying their bad people, rather just a simple expression that not everyone is going to approach it the same way I'd like. And that's okay because I get I'm not the only paying customer out there.) And finally some of it it has been how they've approached their on line presence, which for a game that heavily involves an online presence in it's setting and actual game play-I mean it was the inspiration for several movies that made lot's of money-has been lackluster and scattered at best.

I hope the good people at Shadowrun get it together, and continue to publish product. I hope for quality product that I'll be interested in, and that will keep the Game World a vivid, and exciting place to spend my hobby time on. (And hard earned dollars.) I'll support their efforts, and hope that maybe they can build a culture that not only lasts but doesn't end up with a half dozen or so free lancer's venting on Dumpshock every few years about what sort of professional problems they've encountered. We'll see.

Just for the record, but my eyes were wide open when I decided to write a few things for SR, myself. I came in on the tail end of the Great Debacle ™, personally, I wasn't even on the roller coaster for the whole ride, I just showed up in the horrible aftermath. I knew their reputation had taken a hit, but I also had a flexible enough schedule (for the first time in my life) that I had a chance to write for Shadowrun, my first RPG. I weighed the benefit to the risk, decided the worst that could happen was I'd write stuff (once), not get paid (once), and get my name in a Shadowrun book (once), and I went for it.

My rule, the entire time, has been "I'll give 'em a shot until they screw me over."

So far, so good. I've gotten to publish some stuff that I think has been pretty fun, I've gotten to add some fiction in a few places, I've gotten to wedge a couple popular fiction characters of mine into canon, and the response to my contributions has been fairly positive. What's more, I've gotten paid on time, I got my comps without hassle, and -- if anything -- CGL's been more careful/anal/meticulous about contracts and other business-side paperwork than previous companies I've freelanced for (one of which is a pretty big name).

The working arrangement ain't perfect, I've butted heads a few times (because that's what writers do with editors, it's just the natural cycle), etc, etc...but if it was that awesome, it wouldn't count as a job.

I've seen nothing from my own admittedly brief time with CGL that makes me question my next paycheck arriving on time.

I've seen enough dark side in the mirror every morning... Thanks.

Hostile Extractions and Placements? This is Shadowrun we're talking about here.

I just got a couple emails with some backlog proofing credits and instructions in how to use them, so I imagine you'll probably be getting something similar soon, if you haven't already. Check your spam filters, just in case,

(And I was very surprised to get them, since I was helping out to, you know, help out, and hadn't asked for any kind of credit, so... Hey, cool )

I think I can say this without getting yelled at... I hope.

Artifacts Unbound should be hitting PDF very soon (Jason noted on Facebook that it was sent to the printers and that the PDF was approaching the launch bay yesterday). It contains a LOT of fiction and fluff, but it also contains a bunch of crunch (A lot of NPC stats, but also a few rules), and more story and adventure seeds and hooks than you can shake a stick at.

There's some really, really cool stuff in there, IMO. Plus the stuff I wrote, but it's short, you can ignore that

Bull

Yeah, but does it have the stuff we're asking for on The Other Forum?

Hi Patrick, thanks for the update, its good to hear that things seem to have settled down and you are now getting paid.

Ummm. I think we're saving that for a web supplement

<grin>

(BTW, when I said "Available Soon"? Yeah. I meant within a couple hours. It's up. Enjoy. )

Bull

It's just full of adventure hooks, npcs, and similar random stuff? Hmmm...

Don't get me started. The state of playtesting for Shadowrun is deplorable, from everything I've seen.


Really? I hadn't noticed. [Hey, buddy!]

Linkage? I don't know what other forum we're discussing here.

There's a lot of story and plot stuff too. Hopefully some of it's fun, hopefully some is interesting, and hopefully a lot of it's useful. Since the book is out (barely), I can probably talk about it a bit more.

The book has 20 sections to it. Each section takes a plotline or a subject and opens with an "in Character " piece. Care was taken to make sure that the IC stuff was more obvious than it's been in past books (We remember this being a major complaint with War!). So you'll find that the layout is a bit different for the IC stuff, making it stand out more. The IC stuff is done up a lot like some of the old books such as "Threats", and they're presented in a variety of styles, from office memos to interviews to stories being told by the Jackpointers. And of course you get the Jackpoint commentary on it as well.

Then there's a Gamemaster section which gives background on the topic, in some cases extra rules and summaries, sometimes some NPC stats, and a bunch of story hooks and ideas to let GMs drop trhe info from that section into their game.

Then at the back there's a big "Character Trove", which is a big list of general NPCs that GMs can use as well. Anyone who's been asking for more misc. generic NPC stats will like this section, I think. There's also a few "named" characters that make an appearance in both the main sections and the Character Trove.

I'll let someone else actually review it, since obviously I'm biased, having worked on it (I wrote three sections. I'll let you guys figure out which three ). It was a lot of fun, and I really, really hope you guys like it.

Bull

http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?topic=5164.0

The official SR4 forums. Things got a little... Silly.

Bull

I don't know for sure, but I'm guessing we have different perspectives on this.

Of course it did. I was involved.

Not gonna lie - if we could get some more stuff that was similar in style and flavor to late 2e / 3e fluff (IE, dossiers and profiles loaded and sent out over ShadowSEA) I'd be a happy raven.

Doubly not going to lie - I am now tempted by Artifacts Unbound. But you've woo'd me before, Catalyst...

Hey, 32!

I haven't bothered with the official forums for a bit, not since before the silliness. And I'm not a playtester, so I can't comment there. I can say that what we do is in a vacuum: we're just given chapters to read over and proof, with no comment on where in the process the document is at (e.g., pre- or post- playtesting). I can say that the editors have been very gracious in listening to proofreader feedback, even when it involves some more extensive changes than simple proofreading.

I've mellowed slightly, and I have had to modify my stance for people I've known since high school who actually knew me as Pat. That said, I still prefer not to have it shortened.


It's all good. Wasn't done out of malice, just an accident.


The whole salad. Bull's already talked about Artifacts Unbound, which I didn't have much to do with, but looks pretty awesome from the initial skim-through. There's another Horizon adventure in the pipeline, we're still yammering about a possible Street Legends Part Deux (almost pure fluff, but with stat blocks, and which I would love to participate in), a couple of plot/place books (which will have some crunch, but mostly working on fluff), more fiction (enhanced and otherwise, some of which I'm working on in another window as I type this). Like I said, things are looking up.

Novels are a part of that "Otherwise"???

*Bounces up and down excitedly*

Not sure, though I know that several of us have expressed an interest in writing novels. I, for one, would fare better with longer fiction, since I tend to ramble (if they hadn't told me to stop at 3K words, Martin de Vries could easily have been twice as long as he was in SL).

Another anthology, a la Spells & Chrome, has been talked about, though no one's carved anything in stone about it to my knowledge. The enhanced fiction is the big thing right now; I've got a couple of enhanced pieces that I'm working on at the moment which will end up being something around 5K words or so of fiction each (as planned), followed by a couple or three stat blocks for the major characters in those stories. Hmmm, okay...just looked, and "Another Rainy Night" is currently sitting at 2700 words and I'm just getting started, so probably more than 5K plus characters, specialty gear, and other crunch.

But novels probably aren't in play yet, and I'm not just being coy. I honestly know nothing about novels at this time. But I'd love some.

I don't doubt this would be an enjoyable project for the freelancers, and might make an interesting read, but honestly I don't see how it would add anything to the game. I already have more Street Legends than I will ever use in my games in the first book (not to mention ye olde Primer Runners). Maybe its just me tho- I don't tend to make use of cannon NPCs all that much.

More generic stats (which is partially why I'm tempted by Unbound!) and a quick n' easy system to make non-Prime Runner NPCs would be a god send.

Just sayin'

So far as I'm concerned, the new leaf is turning over when any new, high quality errata gets released, and turned over when the errata finally gets caught up to, say, products published at least 3 months ago.

Aye some errata would be nice.

Gotta agree with this too...

If this is becoming a wish list I'll pass on pregenerated NPC's-I can do that on my own much better than anyone else can-and while I guess errata is okay frankly that could be done online, so I'd like to see more stuff (Drones, equipment, and gear.), we'd love a guide to North America that dealt with with some of the border cities between the NAN, UCAS, CAS, the Tir, etc...and I'd like the hacking and rigging rules simplified so that I don't spend five minutes flipping from page to page, book to book looking for a set of rules that should all be on one page.

They are looking for errata pdf's to be posted on the CGL website not for bought books.

Edit: Also +1 on the low priority for Pre-gen NPC's.

Yeah my comment was mostly directed at where I'd like the focus to be, sorry if it came across as I want errata hard copied.

They do playtesting?

Oh yeah.

I agree, even when Cain and I get on opposite sides of a horrible internet flame war... at the end of the day hes good people.



Yes but I think the RPG industry as a whole doesn't understand that you need folks from all styles of play to do playtesting. Optimizers and Thespians get ignored.

We all have our own opinions.

Signs point to yes... despite my group never getting back to that after The Great Debacle...

So are you, Tete. So are you.


This is where the Evil Empire, a la WOTC, actually does things right. They do serious destruction-testing on a lot of their stuff, and release betas to the public for even more testing before making an official release. Most of the playtesting I've done (for indie game developers) has amounted to: "Did you have fun?" "Were there any major issues?" "No, ok, thank you." There wasn't much room for detailed feedback, and nobody seemed willing to go back to start from scratch even if things were completely borked. Admittedly, this was just one or two sessions for indie designers, usually single-author projects. I can't understand how a corporate environment might alter that.