So why is it that there are so many more traditions for Logic and Charisma than there are for Intuition? What does it mean that Buddhism is Intuition-linked but Hindu is Logic-linked and Christianity is Charisma-linked?

Am I crazy?

Don't they present rules for designing your own tradition?

I don't know why there's fewer Intuition-linked Traditions, but they all mean that when resisting Drain from spellcasting or summoning or whatever, they use their Willpower attribute plus their "linked" attribute as their base dice pool.

So someone with Willpower 4 and Charisma 4 and a Charisma-linked Tradition has a base dice pool of 8 to resist Drain.



-k

I'm aware of how attributes help to resist drain; my question is more fluff-related. What exactly is the difference, idealogically, mentally, whatever-ly, between a Logic-using Mage and a Charisma-using mage. Why are certain attributes linked to certain belief systems?

Well since SR1 Shaman'shave been linked to Charisma, I think because the tradition is commonly perceived (Correctly or not) as being one where social interactions between man and nature are more important than the ritualistic portions of the tradition.

I assume since the days of D&D Mages have been perceived as being the prototypical Gandalf/Archmage type. Books, and more concerned about the power than a congenial relationship with nature. (Obviously this is a super huge simplification.)

So what about an intuition-based tradition? Magic is linked to the strength of your belief? Magical ability derived not from exchanges with others, nor book learnin', but inherent power of the individual?

Design one, and post it up and I'm sure you'll have no shortage of knuckleheads...I mean well meaning posters offering commentary...whether you want it or not!

Where the dart landed on the dartboard? I'm not a big fan of the magical traditions as presented, most of them are a randomly selected attribute, some often odd spirit choices, and research that suggests someone skimmed the wikipedia article.

There's nothing stopping you from swapping out Drain stats, if your GM allows it and your character makes sense. Want to play a Shamanic magician that handles things through gut instinct better than he does through pure force of personality? Sure, pop in Intuition instead of Charisma, if you want. Want to play a ruthless, manipulative, Black Mage who actually bullies spirits into working for him and bends physics with his forceful personality, instead of manipulating reality through cold logic? Some GMs would let you trade in Cha instead of Logic for your Drain stat.

Etc, etc. Make it make sense, don't do so just to abuse the system with some jinky little loophole (and a stat you can pump up silly high), and I imagine most GMs would let you do so, if you wanted.

So many of the assigned Drain stats really do seem to be "where the dart hit" as much as anything else, I don't think the game world will break down if you swap in one mental attribute for another.

The simple answer is because Intuition is a major attribute, while Logic and to a much lesser degree Charisma aren't. Intuition is used for Perception Tests and determining Initiative, it gives you bonus Knowledge Skill points, and it's used to resist many Illusion spells. These are things every character benefits from, and that's just off the top of my head. Sure, Charisma is nice for social types, of course, but that's a mere niche compared to everything Intuition does for you. Logic is even more niche and neglected, to the point where it should be more valuable than it is, but isn't because of idiotic design choices (particularly in the way of hacking).

But, yeah, it really is that simple; they didn't want to inflate the value of Intuition more than it already is.

Fluff wise there's absolutely no reason for there to be so many traditions that lack Intuition as their linked attribute. It deals with insight, contemplation, and inspiration; traits valued in many religious and magical philosophies. Luckily, since all the traditions in the game are simply examples, you're free to modify them or come up with one from scratch so it's really not that big of an issue.

Maybe they were making a commentary about what they thought about various world religions?

• If it's Logic based they're saying your religion is is based on critical thinking and some sort of systematic approach (don't worry about what you feel - believe because 1+1 = 2)
• If it's Charisma based they're saying your religion is based on influential people who determine the tenets and convince others to follow (believe because I tell you to and I'm pretty convincing)
• If it's Intuition based then they're saying your religion is based on guess-work and what "feel's right" (lets just make this shit up as we go)

What people have said matches my understanding: Intuition is already good enough for *all* characters, and it used to be Charisma-Shamans and Logic-Mages.

I'm all for being able to build your own traditions but I think they should mean something as opposed to just being a fluff "set of beliefs" that your character isn't likely to follow anyway.

Of course I also believe spells (and summoning abilities) should have some sort of pre-requisites... seems kind of silly that any entry level mage of any tradition should be able to learn something as powerful as Mob Mind... hell it's only 8R, not even that hard to get your hands on.

there are 3 more Intuition traditions in Digital Grimoire.

Yeah, that's definitely F in my world. I find it really hard to believe that they would allow any of the Mental spells at all.

It's kind of a causality of how the magic traditions are made.

As a general rule, logic traditions are those who rely on intense study and exacting rituals, charisma traditions are those that focus on the interaction between the magicians and the spirits, and intuition traditions are those that focus on personal power and enlightenment.

Traditions are mostly based off of old real world religions, and in order for a tradition to work it needs not only to explain how magic works, but also what the spirits are. Most old world traditions that have the type of spirits that make sense for shadowrun are strongly tied to said spirits, and are fairly shamanistic by modern standards, hence charisma.

There actually are not a lot of logic based traditions, but it happens that one of them is perhaps the most common western tradition, based on the real world order of hermes.

The problem arises that most real world traditions that focus on personal power and enlightenment are more philosophy than religion, and usually don't care a great deal about spirits and magic and what not, and thus are hard to fit into the shadowrun rules system, thus there are not many intuition based traditions.

You'd almost think so, but that's totally inconsistent. Intuition materialization traditions universally have weak spirit selections... but Intuition possession traditions don't. And there's plenty of logic and charisma traditions with weak spirit selections too (ex: Wicca has a Logic branch and an Intuition branch). Not that I buy that whoever wrote Street Magic had the faintest clue about which spirit types were better than others.

Skim wikipedia article, type some stuff, randomly select drain attribute, randomly select 5 spirit types explains the traditions better than anything else, although a few of them appear to have been edited afterwards.

That's not what I said. I said they're examples of traditions, not that traditions themselves should be ignored. Black Magic, for example, is really just a darker variation of Hermetic Magic. The existence of Black Magic does not, however, negate Hermetic Magic, nor does it render Hermetic Magicians "fluff." It's simply a different viewpoint with different beliefs and capabilities.


A house rule that often came up in the past was that you had to take the "lesser" versions of spells first. Stunbolt to get Stunball, Influence to get Control Thoughts, Control Thoughts to get Mob Mind, and so on and so forth.

I'm a big proponent of making your own traditions. It's in the books for a reason. Tabletop RPGs and their GM's should encourage creative thinking way more than encyclopedic knowledge and book ownership. In this case, Shadowrun does.

I've always wanted to play a Scientology mage. An OT-8 who really CAN do all the cool magical stuff LRH claimed he could do. What do you think; Charisma based?

How did spirit selection get involved in this? We all know those are totally random.

Heh, that's a tricky one. I'd say Charisma. Oh, and watch out for the litigators.

There's a real-world Order of Hermes?

I'd explain the current division as some developer thinking "well, Drain will be Willpower and some mental attribute... " and then having some legacy traditions with Charisma and Logic from past editions. And then divvying up the remaining traditions based on what feels right.

I'm also not so convinced Intuition traditions are all that sweet; Elves get a juicy Charisma bonus, and Logic traditions can benefit from Cerebral Booster bioware. I don't see a clear winner, there's something to be said for each of the three.

You get to be an ork and troll without a reduction to your Drain value stat. The increased Body makes it worth it to some.

My version was funnier

My version was funnier

Which isn't what I said - all I was saying was that I'd like them to have some actual meaning to the game. I didn't say they should just be ignored because they don't have more of a mechanical impact. If you want to take the Buddhist tradition at my table you need to play your character as a Buddhist

Well, technically, without more mechanics around them they're all mostly "fluff" but I would never say that one tradition negates the existence of another. I see Hermetic as an almost scientific approach to magic that has little or no religious connotations (I cast Manabolt... for SCIENCE!). I see Chaos as a darker and edgier version of Hermetic and I see Black Magic as a darker more spirit based version of Chaos (though that's just my personal view and is not really supported by RAW - fluff or otherwise)

If the character is not following the beliefs of their Tradition, they should suffer a Crisis of Faith/Confidence (Optional Rule: Acquiring Geasa in Play, Page 29, Street Magic, Applied because the Magician refuses to follow the tenets of his Tradition), with the resolution of such requiring a Geas. It is the Simplest way to correct the errant magician. My question is why a player would select a Tradition that they did not intend to follow in the first place. I would never allow that.

Spells and Summoning abilities DO have a set of prerequisites. They are called a Tradition. And a Magical Attribute. If the Player's character chooses not to follow the Tradition and its philosophies, their character's should be punished for it. Crisis of Faith/Confidence is the perfect resolution. One that can have a permanent, and deliterious, effect on the magician.

See the Geas Negative Quality (Street Magic) for the effects of Broken Geasa.

I see them all as total meaningless fluff.

Well that doesn't follow their recommendation for when a Geas would be gained during play but since it's established you and I generally read things differently and I don't disagree that a penalty should be imposed so I won't argue the point.
Not quite as simple as treating the Traditions themselves as pre-existing Geas for all casters. Doing something not in line with your tradition.. -1 to Magic until you stop and, possibly, atone (depending on the tradition). (not that -1 Magic is, by itself, that devastating). Of course this leads to big debates about when a particular action is or isn't following a particular tradition. Would a mage of the Christian tradition not be allowed to kill an opponent? It violates one of the 10 commandments... but if you look at Christian history it's full of Christians killing people "in the name of God"

And even if those answers were clear, how much does your average player know about most of the listed traditions beyond what's in SM? The player or GM would have to learn enough about the RL equivalent of the tradition (or just make up if crafting a custom one) to create a set of tenets the character shouldn't violate.
Which is what I also say a few comments farther down the thread
Very nit-picky and obviously not what I meant at all. I don't disagree with imposing a tradition based penalty but I still find spell and spirit accessibility a bit too "open ended" for my tastes. (skills and warez too for that matter)

I kind of dislike the ideas of Traditions. One of the things that originally attracted me to SR1 was the idea that Magic wasn't bound by musty books, or storied traditions. I get we need to have some rules that govern Magic, but...I don't know. Sometimes when we flesh things out we lose the mystery of it, which can suck sometimes. That said it can also be fun! (I know what kind of frickin' help am I? Right?)

You're right, it doesn't. But it is something that I would apply, and I would use those rules to do so. It is purely an extrapolation of the rule, applied to a Break of Tradition. Sorry if that was not clear.



Sure, That would work as well. But since the Traditions are not currently set up that way, my previous suggestion would work. If you wanted to go to the effort to update all the Traditions with hard code limits, well, that works to.



Sure. I make it a point to do the research on any tradition that I choose to play. My GM trusts me to roleplay the Tradition. However, My GM is also intuitive enough to know when a Tradition is not being followed (for example, the Buddhist PRIEST that casually kills; Pretty blatant break from the Tradition, no research even required). If there are questions, I provide the research (Not just a Wiki Entry) to back up my roleplaying, if necessary. This has not been required of me yet. *Shrug*



I think that the design process should be shared between the Player and the GM, and any bugs ironed out before play starts. That tends to prevent any issues from cropping up later. As for the nit-picky, I apologize. Should there be other prerequisites? Sure. But those should be part and parcel of the Tradition, as designed.

Hope I made a bit more sense.

Hermeticism has been around for quite some time, and the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn was perhaps the most well known order that practiced it. The Hermetic mages in Shadowrun are based on those beliefs, but with the Abrahamic undertones muted. Chaos magic is basically hermetic magic with none of the religious stuff, and black magic takes the old testament flair of Hermetic magic up to 11, drawing power from dark spirits and demons instead of the angels and whatnot.

Honestly, I see no reason that an Intuition tradition should be any more or less powerful than a logic or charisma based one. Intuition is one of the more important combat stats, and is used for assensing, but otherwise isn't magically useful. Logic affects bound foci and is the only attribute boostable by 'ware, and charisma affects bound spirit limits.

My general rule when creating traditions is I try to have at least two of the elemental spirits, because honestly, spirits of man and beast, as well as the street magic spirits out class the elemental spirits by quite a bit.

Ah, right, the Golden Dawn and such. Because AFAIK, the "Order of Hermes" exists only in Ars Magica and White Wolf

Yeah, I think Intuition, Charisma and Logic are all valid choices. Each has its own advantages, none outclass the other two completely. Charisma lets you be a Face. Logic is easiest to boost really high, and if you use the popular Attribute+Skill for hacking optional rule, it lets you do a Mage/Face quite nicely. And Intuition is good in combat and perception. So they all have something nice to them. I think it's a bit of game design gone well

Just tossing this out there... has anybody considered a Tradition with drain stats being WIL + WIL? Focusing on mental discipline, rather than acuity, insight or personality.

I agree with you on the drain stats, actually. Also, note Elves get +2 Charisma, but nobody gets an Intuition bonus.

I disagree about spirits. Man spirits are super awesome, Air are only slightly less awesome, Fire is at least good at killing people. Water is only good for weather control, and Earth is shit. Beast is also total shit though, they aren't useful for anything and they certainly don't outclass Air spirits.

Plant spirits are kinda niche and are not really better than air or fire spirits, just different. Guidance spirits are also kinda niche, albeit a very useful niche, but that really puts them more on par with Water. Task and Guardian are both really awesome though.

Seems a bit easy, don't you think? Only one Drain Attribute you need to spend points on?

Half price drain dice? Yes please! Fluff-wise, that's just a Logic tradition in my world.

I think basically all magic demands mental discipline, that's why they all have Will.

Yeah, I see the cost issue, just thought someone might have found a way to work it fairly.

There's no good way to balance that. One of the balancing factors of magicians is how expensive it is to be good at magic, and by doing that you are saving 20+ BP. Besides, Willpower is a really good attribute, I don't think we need more reason to encourage people to buy it.

My biggest problem with the elemental spirits is how much overlap they have in powers(in particular, water spirits are like crappy air spirits for the most part). Beast spirits can be monsters in combat(natural weapon+venom), and having access to the animal control power is a real nice bonus. Plant spirits honestly feel like earth spirits done right, and guidance, guardian, task, and man spirits are all amazing(thought I'll admit that guidance spirits are kinda niche.)

The biggest annoyance I have is that the Street Magic spirits are just basically so much better/more versatile than others.

What I'd really like to see is the core book traditions redone to take into account some of the street magic powers. You know, having at last -ONE- spirit with magical guard, or something, right?

Uh, what? Beast spirits are terrible at fighting and Venom is pathetic. Fire and Air spirits can both rock a beast spirit's socks off in a melee fight.

Just give all core book Spirits Counterspelling/Magical Guard. Done.

I'd give magical guard to Earth, Water, and Beast Spirits, I don't think the others need it.

That works, but I would provide some parity. Maybe the others (Air and Man) get it as an Optional Power.

I personally think that Air and Man spirits don't need the boost, but I don't think it would make them over powered either. I think making magical guard a more common power will help in making magical security easier.

This seems entirely reasonable - I wasn't sure who would get what by default, and which could choose to take it.

Street Magic has some Intuition based.

The Buddhist Tradition
The Druidic Tradition(I think i'm using this idea for my Elf-shifting bear shifter, since I can see it fitting him)
Traditional/Hedge Witchcraft
Wiccan(If it's Goddess Wiccan, Gardnerian Wiccan uses Logic)

That's only four out of the bunch, but it's a few to start with at the very least for some ideas. I'm sure you could also create some of your own, it's pretty open ended. But yeah, it's likely due to the fact, if I had to guess, that Charisma and Logic don't work quite as hard; but I too was happy to see a few Intuition based traditions, since I like the general idea of them.

But then you should be asking yourself... do you want the Intuition based tradition because you want to make a character that follows a tradition in the Intuition style or is it really just an excuse to save some points by pumping up a stat you'll already be raising for perception and Initiative anyway?