I'm wondering if there is a way, maybe developing a new kind of magic focus, maybe altering a Sustaining Focus, that would allow the adept power Living Focus to sustain a spell without causing the -2 detraction to actions the way regular sustaining does. Clearly the adept would have to bond to the focus and link his ability to sustain a spell to it the way a regular magician does her own sustaining.

Any thoughts?

Just take some Psyche. Heightened concentration/adept centering will help too.

Depending on how you interpret the Heightened Concentration power, you might be able to use it to ignore the sustaining penalty long term.

Yes, I have an adept who has the Heightened Concentration power as well as Living Focus. I'm just toying with the concept, and seeing what barriers there might be to developing such a magical aid. It would seem to be a pretty useful focus for an adept, as Heightened Concentration is a costly power and adept centering and Heightened Concentration both can be used for more distracting dice pool modifiers.

This is true. Unfortunitely for my players, I rule it as working for one test, which will take no more then a day to perform. Not much use for extended fights, but if they are using it in the first place, why is the fight extended?

It's a really dumb power all around. I don't even know why people would want to try to make it work. It's way too expensive for what it does, it penalizes you (by either giving you a dice pool penalty, an addiction to drugs, or a waste of even more points), and it's just flat out redundant. Get a Anchoring Focus or Quickened Tattoo or something instead.

The reason I chose it for my PC is twofold. First, he is an academic forced into the shadows. He had Heightened Concentration before entering the shadows to aid him in his archaeological work. Most of his adept powers were first and foremost to be used in his original life: memory enhancements, perception enhancements, analysis enhancements and Heightened Concentration. Entering the shadows for his own reasons, he found he needed to be able to find a way to 'catch up' quickly to those who had tailored themselves for such work, or else. He Boosted AGI and REA, and picked Living focus to be adaptable to situations, one kind of spell for this run, another time something else.

Second is the nature of foci. He himself, with Magic 6, is a Force 6 focus, able to maintain some pretty powerful spells. Neither Anchoring nor Quickening was available to him, and each would provide a limited range of support, and be vulnerable to disruption. So of course would the sustained spell in Living Focus, but the reapplication of the spell would be far less expensive.

So, with flexibility, adaptability, high power and easy, cheap recharging, I don't think it's a dumb power at all.

So you're saying you're fine with trading the -2 to have a universal rating 6 sustaining focus… why the thread?

Also, he was apparently the world's most magically powerful archaeologist ever? Hehe.

Well, yeah, he is in deed one boffo archaeologist! This game is fantasy, you know. An if I'm going to Mary Sue myself into my role playing (being an archaeologist myself), why not go over the top? Hell, he has a fedora that is a Force 4 Power Focus, inherited from his great, great grandfather, and his last name before entering the shadows was Jones.

The purpose of the thread is to explore possibilities. Are there other ways than Heightened Concentration to overcome the -2 problem? This is, well... an academic exercise.

That argument basically applies to adepts in general. Their powers are either overbalanced to the point of worthless, just fluff, or hilariously overpriced. There's a few worthwhile powers but most of those are just extra dice so you just splash adept and call it a day.

Living Focus could have been an interesting power if it had been some of combination of being cheaper, not having a sustaining penalty, and allowing for multiple spells.

As for the OP, it's basically a standard attempt to see how close to a silk purse you can make out the sow's ear that is Living Focus. It's good practice for rules understanding / optimization and can lead into interesting builds that at least don't cry themselves to sleep every night.

You truly have issues with Adepts? Hmmmmm....
I find adepts to be quite uesable and versatile. After all, there are ways to make Adept Abilities cost less.

Cheesy ways.

Maybe. If they geas their abilties in my game, the geas better be able to be used to restrict them.

It also needs to be a geas that makes sense for the concept.

Although this does bring up a question I recently had:

Is there anything specific about a Talisman geas on the astral? Its not a foci, so it wouldn't shine like one I'd think. But it is linked to magic. My first take is that when the power(s)/magic it was linked to was active, then the talisman would somehow also display as connected or active. I may have missed something on them, so I'd love to get feedback.

I would agree with that. Though, for Magicians, it would glow anytime they did anything. There are no specific rules for it, but since people have indicated that Talisman Geas are broken, it seems reasonable there be a way to find out it is linked to the character's belief, in order to do something about it.

No Doubt. But then again, I tend to choose very appropriate Geasa for my Adepts.

Why woud a Talisman Geas be broken?

Precisely my point.

Heh...

And the Talisman geas does restrict the magician in exactly the same way fetishes restrict spells. Or even worse if it's a truly unique talisman which can't be replaced and must instead be regained.

NM

As people have suggested, Heightened Concentration is designed for just this purpose:
He even provides an example:

Nevermind.

Except, that as pointed out in another thread, it's usually a dick GM move to target a specific object/character like that. Sure, if it is valuable, someone might steal it, but by the RAW, there is no way to tell if the character has a talisman geas, unless he/she (truthfully) tells you he does.

Well, a Geasa is a personal thing, ansd should not be something that others work to the character's detriment. A Geas should be something that the CHARACTER has to struggle with to maintain. A Talisman Geas is the easiest to of the Geasa to maintain. Not broken, it is definitely something that CAN have the potential to cause issues if the caster is in the proper circumstances, but not something that will come up very often. The simple truth is that the only way to break a Talisman Geas is to lose (through hook or crook) the Talisman. It is still somewhat flavorful. Like the Catholic Spirit Hunter with a Talisman Geas, who uses his somehwat hard to replicate (though not impossible, of course) Rosary as his Talisman. Flavorful. He will not likely lose it, but it could happen, and could be the beginnings of a great story.

For me, a Talisman Geas is generally one of the last that I will consider. There are just so many other better, more flavorful, options for the characters that I create. *shrug*

And as Yerameyahu mentioned above. Heightened Concentration is tailor-made for Living Focus. Supported by one of the developers who actually worked on the document that it was created in.

And, again, all it does is make a bad power more expensive. Especially since Heightened Concentration can do much more for you in a fight. (Reducing a -5 dice pool penalty is quite a bit better than reducing a -2 penalty.)

Mages -- the good ones, anyway -- don't have much issue when it comes to sustaining spells anyway. For short duration spells, it shouldn't be a bother. If it's a long term thing, there are much better alternatives that not only do the same basic thing, but let you use your much more precious Power Points to buy powers that actually have value. Besides, perpetually sustained spells are never perpetually sustained courtesy of astral barriers and background counts.

So, yeah, giving up 2 Power Points (nearly half of what most adepts will begin the game with) just so they can mimic a Sustaining Focus? It's pretty dumb both conceptually and mechanically. Hell, I'd rather just ask the GM if I could give some of my Resources/BPs to the mage so he can buy and bind a Sustaining Focus on my behalf or, more likely, ask him for a price on getting a spell Quickened -- which is something that should already have a pricetag in the damn game.

This is why I asked about being able to astrally perceive the connection of the talisman to the user's magic. If there is, and I think there should be, then it makes perfect sense for anyone that can perceive that to target the talisman. What that does is it means that Talisman has the potential to be easily maintained, but the onus is on the GM; whereas most other geas put the onus on the player.

Most players I know, or at least all the ones that play with me, are too paranoid about letting the GM have the potential to affect them that much.

What it does is give you options as an Adept. Yes, it will be expensive, and yes, it is likely a better expenditure of resources to get a quickened tattoo or anchored spell.

Would I buy Living Focus, as an Adept? Maybe, but not at character creation. It would be something for advancement, if I deemed it necessary. Heightened Concentration, on the other hand, is very useful, as you pointed out. And as a note, and not to ignite any flameing posts (for those that do not agree that Sustainment is a sinlge penalty that scales by number of spells), but Heightened concentration could cover more than a single spell sustained, dependant upon the magic rating of the Adept. An Adept with a Magic of 6, and both HC and LF, could sustain 3 spells with no penalty. Not to shabby.

For what it is worth, I would also establish a connection to the Character's Magic/Abilities through a Talisman Geas.

Yes, I responded to that example immediately below it. In my original post, I wasn't clear enough. I knew about Heightened Concentration and already use it. Given that HC is universally applicable, I was looking for something that could take over the -2 so that a larger negative could be handled by HC.

Living Focus doesn't mimic a sustaining focus. It mimics all sustaining foci, up to a Force equal to the Magic of the adept. It is therefore more versatile, more functional, and more valuable than any single focus. For an adept of Magic 5 at chargen, a single sustaining focus at the same level, if she could find it, much less bind it, would cost 5 BP for the binding and 5 BP for the buying. together 10 BP, equal to 1 Magic point. Living Focus can do the job of all 5 types of Sustaining Foci, admittedly not all at once.


I've always applied it to a single modifier, not the sum modifier of multiple spells being sustained.

So? It still sucks unless you want your entire purpose for existing to be a mage's sustaining focus. Which, in my experience anyway, pretty much means Increased Reflexes for the mage and maybe the occasional Heal spell in dire situations (using the same focus, since they're both Health spells), since that's the only thing I really ever use one for as a mage, even one who "buffs" the other runners in the party as needed. Psyche and huge dice pools means you can sustain a bunch of spells without it really dampening your ability to hurl spells anyway.

There's a reason most mages run around with only one Sustaining Focus, and that's pretty much why.

Besides, the only thing I can see you trying to do is come up with a cheesy way of getting Increased Reflexes without having to pay the power points for the real power. If you have something else in mind (and no, the Firewater Aura thing is just as silly, especially since few mages if any ever waste points on that stupid, Drain-intensive spell that no one's going to be walking around with perpetually active), try detailing that rather than just trying to awe the world with "OMG, I'm a universal Sustaining Focus!" Oh, and explain how wasting 2 Power Points to do it is better than a -1 dice pool penalty for the caster. Because as it stands, that's not awe-inspiring in the least.

(Also, did you really just try to make 10 BP -- 2.5% of your starting allotment -- for a rating 5 Sustaining Focus sound expensive compared to 2 Power Points -- 40% of your Power Points if you have Magic 5?)

Fact is, they don't need to cost that much. Although the lowest they can cost together is 1.5 powerpoints, baring a homebrew way. Regardless, it is flexible, especialy when you consider the fact you can pay a talismonger/mage for hire to cast a spell on you (say, Trid Phantasm, invisibility, the aforemention increaed Reflexes, or maybe Detect Enemies (extended)), and sustain it yourself, possibly getting a discount if the GM is nice. Don't look at the powers in the vaccuum of "your team", try to look at them with the best situation for your build, and find a way to do it.

What a limited bunch you run with.

Gimme a break. Cheesy?
What?? You want a list!? Go through Street Magic's table at the back of the book and look at how many sustainable spells are good. Combat is not the only spell group in which such spells exist, but there are several options that make a PC tougher. Of those mages who might have that one and only one Sustaining Focus (Health) in your group, how many have it at Force 4 to be as fast as possible (as fast as 4 Power Points would be needed to make you using the 'real power')? None, unless she spent yet another 5 BP to have the Restricted Gear Quality. How many have a Sustaining Focus at Force 6 for things like Armor, Increase Attribute, Combat Sense, Detect Enemies, Improved Invisibility, Stealth, Resist Pain, Spatial Sense, Analyze Device, Deflection, etc., etc. None, because they can't at chargen, and won't find one easily even in long-term play. And in long-term play, if the adept increases his Magic, then the Force sustainable increases, too.

Any mage with any spread of spells will almost surely have something he can cast on this guy. My PC wants to be toughened, he can be. He wants to be sneakier, he can be. He wants to see things better, he can. And it doesn't require any teammate to be worse at what he does, or take drugs, or whatever. Holy shit, why is it so hard to see that as being useful?

My guy (the archaeologist with MAG 6) is in the Post or Die thread here on DS, and that game cycles through players like a meat grinder. The current mix includes a mage who has Increase Attribute(INT), so my guy who is strong in Perception, Assensing, and a bunch of other Skills related to that Attribute is currently really good at them. he chose this Power option (ie. I chose it) to make him adaptable to whatever opportunities come his way. It makes sense in his back story, it makes sense in that campaign, and it makes sense as a PC in any long-running campaign in which PCs will cooperate with each other to make the team stronger.

It's not 2 Power points, it's 1. The discussion has already established that Heightened Concentration is good on its own. We're talking, now, about Living Focus. 1 Power Point.

No, I succeeded in demonstrating that the 1 Power Point for Living Focus costs no more BP than a single, equivalent Force, Sustaining Focus pertaining to only one of 5 spell categories, and unusable by adepts as far as I can see according to RAW (hence the question of the thread), which had been suggested earlier as being a better option.

I'm guessing by that response I pretty much nailed it then. And yes, that's cheesy.


Because it's not. It's that simple.

How often do you hear players lamenting, "Oh man, I wish we had an adept with Living Focus! I just can't do my job without one. So no spells to make you tougher or sneakier. Sorry!" The answer is: Never. Because it's not a big hindrance to sustain spells on your teammates, especially if you chose your spells to do that. It's something you fully expect, it isn't a big deal, and in the end at most you're saving 2 dice pool for the mage, and more likely just 1. That's a horrible investment all around especially -- and I can't stress this enough no matter how much you want to dismiss it -- considering all the alternative solutions available.

It's even worse because, in the end, you're wasting all those power points for a net gain of only 1 or 2 dice for another character.

Also, just because this is a ridiculously awful power, I've never once said you can't take it if you really feel it's an integral aspect of your character, only that it's a really awful power with better alternatives. But trying to make it sound like it's the best thing EVER is completely and utterly foolish because it truly is one of the worst adept powers in the game. And keep in mind that this is coming from someone who's built a character around the Empathic Healing power, which is another pretty awful one compared to the other options.

It's not "the best thing ever", and I don't characterize it as such. I believe flexibility is a useful characteristic. That's all. OK, look, I still am asking the original question, even though some feel the power is not much use.

I have one of those, too.

Where in SR4A do you find a rule excluding Adepts from binding any type of focus? "..an Awakened character can bond any type of focus..." (The Precious p. 199, Foci), and even bound by an adept, the focus would still empower a magicians spell.

As a GM I would let you develop a custom focus based on ancient knowledge you´d have to work for - Mary Sue in true style. Say 3 karma and support for one spell category per rating point, with a user-specific focus formula.

As a player I tend to bind multiple Sustaining Foci; Living Focus as the only adept power on a mystic adept could be interesting.

there's a 73% chance you posted it on your facebook profile

Hey pbangarth & Ol'Scratch: keep it civil.

I think we're over it. Thanks.

Was there any point to either of these posts other than raising your post count? I don't see their value but you've got me really curious now.

Yeah, and TJ said "Heh ", get him!

The thing I really don't like about Living Focus is that it can only sustain stuff cast on the adept.

If it operated more like Spirit spell sustaining, then it might actually be worth a power point, just because it can take a load(any load) off of the group's mage.

Well, if that's the way you feel, why not put it up as a suggestion in your group? After all, ultimately everything is a suggestion, and it is fairly well known a few adept powers are over priced.

Hey, it was mildly amusing...

Sorry, nothing exciting on my end. I had a question about Heightened Concentration, but reading thru the other thread linked earlier I found my answer and therefore removed the question. However, I couldn't delete the post, so I just edited the content out with a "Nevermind".