What, no Shape [Heart]?

You go sit in the corner. Right now.

But I don't need to rock back and forth and cry for once.

Magic does NOT work on PARTS of the whole.
You either form the complete body, or nothing at all.

Magic doesn't. Ingenuity does. That's why you don't Fix a car. You remove the broken piece, fix it, and then put it back.

Except in SR4A, where you *do* Fix [Car], right? You also have the separate option of Fix [Part], AFAIK.

As far as I can tell, and I may be wrong with my lack of using magic in games, Fix seems to be near universal... Atleast in the book I have. Did they change it in 4A? 4 just says non-living material.

Let's not forget every players favorite Break [Rules System]

Not *EVERY* player.

Oh, wait, I've never had a chance to play, maybe it is! BASTARDS THE LOT OF YOU!

Except for all of the exceptions where it does. As previously mentioned.

Also, that's a law for sorcery, not magic.

No, Christian, I'm not saying it's a specified spell (though you could presumably do so for reduced Drain?). I was just focusing on the fact that you target the whole thing, not a part. You can target a part, if (and only if) you remove it first.

Oh, sorry. And that is what I was thinking actually. You still have to dismantle the car and then rebuild it, but you have parts that are arguably as good as new. Pop out the windshield, wave your fingers, no more chips and cracks or spiderwebs from bullet holes, if you can find all the glass that is. Big if.

That is what Shape [Glass] is for. Why remove it from the vehicle to Fix it when you can just Shape it in place?

AFAIK, you *don't* remove it from the vehicle to fix it. You just Fix the vehicle. Is this not the case?

You CAN fix the car as a whole but the limitation deals with the weight of the object. That being force X hits in kilograms. Easier to do it part by part. It comes down to can you Fix parts if you aim at a part or do you need to remove the part first. The way the argument seems to be going I assumed one would need to remove the windshield to fix it.

What you can't reliably get to a combination totaling 1600 hits to repair your car?

I would be lucky if I could fix a BMX.

That's true, Christian. I thought the car was just a metaphor for any 'integrated' inanimate object.

Nope, actually thinking of clean-up and repair after a run. My group has a problem with most of our pay going to replenishing our equipment or repairing it so I'm always on the lookout for ways to alleviate that. Be it Fixing the side panel on the armored van, Shaping the confiscated rounds we have no use for into calibers we need, and the like.

Calibers?

It seems like that's a problem for many runners: no one would take the jobs if they cost more to do than they pay. :/ And yet, we do.

It doesn't help we do a lot of vigilante freelance.

"This spell implants a single suggestion in the victim’s mind."
"The caster seizes control of the target’s mind."
"This spell allows the caster to add, alter, or erase a single memory."


In exactly the same way you target their wounds. Or their thoughts. Or anything else that's only a part of the whole.

Want an example of another spell that already does this very thing? Oxygenate. Know why? Here's why. "This spell [oxygenates] the [blood] of a voluntary subject" vs. "This spell [shapes] the [bones] of a voluntary subject." It is no different. At all. Because spells have always operated like this in the game, from the very beginning, despite that one alleged (but constantly broken) law of sorcery.


Except for the small detail of it simply being the other side of the coin. You're looking at it from one side doesn't mean the other side isn't there. If that spell affects "the whole," then any spell that doesn't is only affecting part of the whole. Whether it's Fashion, which only affects their outfit, or Heal, which only affects their wounds. Be they internal injuries, including broken bones, or external and easily visible wounds.

More examples? "Petrify transforms living tissue into stone-like calcium carbonate." Not clothes, not gear, not dead tissue, not implants; only living tissue. Just like Turn to Goo.

How about Makeover? "This spell creates a complete makeover for a voluntary subject, including cosmetics, hair, and nails. It even polishes teeth and eliminates plaque."


I have listed them. Repeatedly. Ignoring or dismissing them doesn't really mean much of anything. And Turn to Goo is, without a doubt, completely and utterly, only affecting part of the subject. It is a canon spell. It's not "broken." It's exactly as it was designed to be. And it's not unique in that regard.

Thoughts are not 'a part' of a person, and neither is their mind 'a part'. The spell is targeting and affecting 'the person'.

The other side of a coin is still a different side, one we're not talking about. We're talking about targeting a sub-part of a living whole, not about targeting a non-living super-part. You're healing the whole. You are not targeting their broken bones.

If you listed them before, it wasn't to me. Makeover is affecting the whole, not targeting their plaque. Oxygenate isn't targeting blood, it's targeting the person. You can't even get LOS on their blood.

Turn to Goo is an awful anomaly, which no one ever said wasn't targeting part of the whole. That's *why* it's broken. Petrify is the same spell as Goo, just a variation. Things can certainly be designed broken in SR, as we know only too well. 'Canon' doesn't mean 'good' or 'right'. There is no reason those (weird, unnecessary) spells couldn't be fixed by making them affect the whole person (and clothes, though that is—again—not what we're talking about).

You are misunderstanding the way magic works. Ol' Scratch. Yerameyahu kind of already said it but to make it clear: While magic can produce effects that seem to affect only part of a target (healing wounds, only altering physical appearance etc.). You cannot target a part of a whole: There is no way to choose a particular set of wounds or only use Fashion on the buttons of a jacket or only oxygenate a person's foot.

I never said there was. I said a spell could be made to affect someone's bones; the spell is targeting the subject, not their bones directly. In exactly the same way all of those other spells operate. Including, again, spells like Oxygenate which only affects their blood, or Petrify which only affects their living tissue.

The "law" doesn't make any sense because of that. Any spell that you describe as only affecting part of the subject can be worded so that it affects the subject themselves. And there's no "seeming" about it. They are only affecting part of the subject, such as Heal, even though you're targeting the subject as a whole.

The entire point of the law is two-fold anyway. 1) to prevent players from destroying buildings or massive vehicles by targeting strategic parts of it, and 2) to prevent having to come up with detailed called shot rules and hit locations. Existing spells break it all the time because they're worded in such a way that neither of those things are possible.

Luckily, most walls have AR paint, so just take off your AR glasses and you should be able to see them just fine

*shrug* What you just described isn't Shape [Bone]. It's "Mess With Someone's Bones". Such a spell would be fine, though totally different. Bones barely exist in the rules anyway, so it would actually be applying a penalty/DV to the whole person in the end. Fluff is just fluff; 'Sleep' just applies Stun damage to the whole person, for example. Petrify/Goo, however, would rightly be impossible to create if they didn't already exist in the game, because of grandfathering and error; they also have no reason to exist in their current form. Petrifying/Gooing Essence-paid implants wouldn't change the spells, except to remove stupid tricks, and make them obey the targeting rules.

Which really does beg the unasked question: Why the hell did Turn to Goo return after a 2 edition hiatus? (Not implying that Yerameyahu has the answer in any way here, just a good time to ask)

I never said it was the Shape [Material] spell. I said a spell can affect the target's bones.


And yet there they are, working 100% as described despite the laws of sorcery.

Heh. Actually, on a hunch, I just referenced the actual laws. Guess what; it's not one of 4th edition's limits to sorcery. Street Magic, "The Limits of Sorcery" sidebars on pages 159-160. Even better, those same rules specifically tell you that you can say "fuck it" to any of them if you want.

Shape [Bone] is what we were talking about. Sorry if you were talking about something different.

We've been over this: being RAW doesn't make it right. There are hundreds of examples of this.

I never called it a law. It's a principle.

*All* the rules in the whole book have the 'change this' caveat, so that's irrelevant.

No, that's what sparked it. People were saying that spells can't affect a subject's bones because they're not in line of sight, amongst other weird arguments. Which is all patently untrue.


Call it what you will, it's not a part of 4th Edition's rules for sorcery. And, again, there's several spells that demonstrate it. No matter how much you want to stick your head in the sand about them. It's not like its only one spell that's an outlier.


Very few emphasize it.

It's true: you can't cast a spell on someone's bones per LOS, even if it were otherwise allowed. You can cast a 'My Bones Are Screwed Up' spell on a person, which is different.

There's basically (one) spell: Petrify/Goo. Your other examples are not targeting parts.

I've been saying affecting. Targeting != affecting. Turn to Goo, Petrify, Control Thoughts, etc. all affect specific parts of the target. You don't target them, you target the subject who has the parts you want to affect.

*shrug* I also/alternatively deny that your other examples are *affecting* parts, then. Heal, Oxygenate, and mental controls are abstractly affecting the whole, in a way that Goo fundamentally is not.

The issue is the weird fluff, as I said. A fire spell could conceivably burn a person to ashes, without turning their (cyber) implants to ashes. You wouldn't say, though, that the spell 'turns the person to ashes; cyber is not affected'.

Going back to the original premise of what could Shape [Insert Material here] be creatively used for.

Going more subtle Shape Paperboard, ever wanted to create a window in a box to see what's in it? Need a quick distraction add a hole to someones SoyKaf cup and watch as piping hot embarrassment ensues, turn an old box in to a makeshift one shot club.

Just wondering...
Would any of you allow "Shape Water" to condense the water out of the air to make drinkable water in an area that doesn't have a normal water source? Of course I'm assuming enough humidity available in the air.

-D

Yes. If nothing else because anyone creative enough to think of that deserves at least a shot of pulling it off.

That, and it's a meaningless impossible-to-abuse effect.

The crew around here can find a way to abuse anything.

They thought they were safe. They never noticed the fine coating of cesium they stood upon. And never would, thanks to pulling that one drop of water out of thin air.....

I would not. You can only shape water you can see. Water in the air you can't, unless the air is oversaturated. In mist or fog this would work IMHO.

Why mot just pool the water over the vicims' mouths and noses? You wouldn't need Cesium for that.

The problem I have with the whole "shape" spell concept is in the descriptions - how *exact* do you have to be in the description?

Shape "stone" covers everything from loose sand to rock.

Should shape "fire" then mean anything from Lava to campfire? Or do i need shape stone+fire?

For convenience I tried to compile a few spells that included most of it.

Name: Shape (Object/Item)
Class: Manipulation (Enviromental, Area)
Type: P • Range: LOS • Duration: S • DV: (F ÷ 2) + 3

Shape spells can manipulate a specific object or item and mould it like it was made out of soft clay.

This spell allows the caster to shape a specific object chosen when creating/obtaining the spell (Wall, Ceiling, Vehicle, Door) or item (commlink, pistol, element or material (air, earth, water, fire, mud, lava, plasteel, concrete, tar, etc.) within range.

The caster must beat the material’s Object Resistance threshold (p. 174, SR4). The material can be reshaped in any way the caster desires, at a maximum Movement Rate of (net hits) meters per turn but not actually moved.

Loose material can be moved and re-shaped easily, but material that is connected or reinforced (such as walls or other material part of a structure) must be broken apart by reducing its Structure rating by Force points per Combat Turn.

This spell allows the caster to rapidly dig holes or create a doorway where one didn’t exist before. Each object/item requires a separate spell (Shape Walls, Guns, Armour, Doors, and so on). Items or Objects reshaped by the caster remain in that form for as long as it is sustained and then it returns to its normal form.

Name: Shape (Material)
Class: Manipulation (Enviromental, Area)
Type: P • Range: LOS • Duration: S • DV: (F ÷ 2) + 3

Shape Material is a modified version of the “Shape Element” – You will need a specific spell for each type of material. Below are a few examples.

Metal
All kinds of refined metal from Iron to Gold

Ceramics
Due to the diversity of this material a spell is needed for each sub-category - See Below

-Structural
Including bricks, pipes, floor and roof tiles Refractories, such as kiln linings, gas fire radiants, steel and glass making crucibles

-Whitewares
Including tableware, wall tiles, decorative art objects and sanitary wares

-Technical
Such items include tiles used in the Space Shuttle program, gas burner nozzles, ballistic protection, nuclear fuel uranium oxide pellets, bio-medical implants, jet engine turbine blades, and missile nose cones.

-Fused
Plascrete, Concrete, Plaster, Mortar, Tarmac

-Plastics
Rubber, soft and hard plastic materials (bags, model kits etc) and silicone.

The caster must beat the material’s Object Resistance threshold (p. 174, SR4). The material can be reshaped in any way the caster desires, at a maximum Movement Rate of (net hits) meters per turn but not actually moved.

Loose material can be moved and re-shaped easily, but material that is connected or reinforced (such as walls or other material part of a structure) must be broken apart by reducing its Structure rating by Force points per Combat Turn.

This spell allows the caster to rapidly dig holes or create a doorway where one didn’t exist before. Each object/item requires a separate spell (Shape Walls, Guns, Armour, Doors, and so on). Items or Objects reshaped by the caster remain in that form for as long as it is sustained and then it returns to its normal form.

This is seriously overpowered. "OK I make the diameter of the barrels of all guns within the area 3mm smaller." 4 hits should be doable for most mages and all guns are worthless.

You can only target something you have a LOS on it. Not somethink you can see. Water in the air, is just like air or like water when i'm underwater : i can have a LOS on it even if i don't really see it.

That's what the GM is for. To facilitate cool story telling, and ruthlessly squash game stopping abuse.

How is that different from "shape metal"

Not to mention that highly processed materials (guns) would require a MINIMUM 5+ hits. So at minimum you need F6. Also, remember that it needs to be sustained for 15 minutes to be permanent.

And how is that different/more overpowered from shape earth where I can shape the rock someone stands on to act as a spear and impale him from ass to mouth?

Everything is overpowered in someone elses eyes. I can make a gun overpowered with very little effort wit´hout breaking any game rules. It's all about what level of play you go for.

Not to mention that it is MAGIC - its supposed to be bloody powerful as you break the laws of physics.

Your sustaining of Permanent Spells is WAY off. Here, let me help you with that...



So, assuming Force 6 (Though Force 5 WOULD work, you only have to meet the threshold of OR), you have 6 Drain. Which is 12 Combat Turns. 12 Combat Turns is equal to 36 Seconds. A FAR Cry from 15 Minutes.

Just Saying.

And I would put Guns at OR 3, not OR 5. They are Manufactured 'High Tech' Obects. I would not place them at 'Highly Processed.'

Generally you are right how threshold tests work, but spells always require a net hit by RAW. Strange but true. I'd much rather use a uniform system for threshold tests. I guess one of the writers did not pay attention.

I just want to point this section out and then beat my face into a table.



Say, for instance, one has Shape [Stone] and is digging a tunnel underground and hits bedrock.

What's the Structure Rating of the North American Plate?

How is Shape [Walls] "rapid", if one has to spend rounds breaking the wall out of the overall structure of the building?

How is Shape [Walls] not just better than Shape [Concrete]?

Its "rapid" cause it would take much longer with a jackhammer (/powerdrill etc) and its silenced

Shape [Walls] is better if you only want to gain access or seal a room, but if you also want to create obstacles (zb panzerigel) or cover it would be pretty useless.