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Socinus
I was thinking about this spell and I started wondering what you could use it on that would be effective and awesome.

Shape [Bone], I'm not sure how you'd calculate the effects of this because you could, with very little effort, kill someone almost instantly.

Shape [Skin], again, awesome but it seems like you could very easily kill someone with it (it'd be...messy).
HunterHerne
Shape [Bone] would have real issues, especially since you'd have to carry bones with you everywhere, or break someone's bone hard enough to force it to the surface (you can still only affect what you can see).

With either spell, it's a tough call, though technically legal. The GM may require a specific material, however (skin is several materials, including oils, generic cells, follicular cells, and other nutrients to support the processes that occur), or the GM may rule that the spell can only affect "unliving" material (in this case, "unliving" may count as any part of a multicellular creature which is still attached to a living main body)
Christian Lafay
Though now thinking about it Shape Bone might be a good spell for your local Street Doc.
HunterHerne
QUOTE (Christian Lafay @ Nov 13 2011, 03:24 PM) *
Though now thinking about it Shape Bone might be a good spell for your local Street Doc.


Fair enough.
Falconer
I don't see an issue. The spells permanent which means it needs to be sustained for a few rounds until it is permanent.

And really at the end of the day, it's no worse than turn to goo... if you can kill someone with one... you can kill them with another. As others point out... to a magical healer it has other usefull properties (assuming the 'heal' spell doesn't already deal with broken bones and the like...).
Udoshi
I looked into this earlier for an urban mage concept.

Shape Electricty and Shape Metal (given that shadowrun apparently uses Ferrocrete to make buildings. I wish I could find that thread on here ages ago that listed a bunch of common shadowrunverse building materials). Shape plastic may also be good.
Kirk
Since
QUOTE
Most electronics in 2070 are optical-based, (SM 174, Pulse)
I thought Shape Glass - or whatever material the optics use - would be amusing.
Makki
the only limitation is Line of Sight. You have to see, what you want to shape. I learned Shape Concrete during Ghost Cartels and had lots of fun and good uses. Making a tunnel, a ramp, a barricade, etc...
Christian Lafay
QUOTE (Makki @ Nov 13 2011, 09:46 PM) *
the only limitation is Line of Sight. You have to see, what you want to shape. I learned Shape Concrete during Ghost Cartels and had lots of fun and good uses. Making a tunnel, a ramp, a barricade, etc...

New Day-Job, construction worker. Used to do the same thing in Exalted, hehe.
Dez384
QUOTE (Makki @ Nov 13 2011, 03:46 PM) *
the only limitation is Line of Sight. You have to see, what you want to shape. I learned Shape Concrete during Ghost Cartels and had lots of fun and good uses. Making a tunnel, a ramp, a barricade, etc...



LOS is the problem with Shape [Bone]. You normally can't bones, unless you want to pull teeth. I guess you could rip out ork/troll horns...
Christian Lafay
QUOTE (Dez384 @ Nov 13 2011, 11:13 PM) *
LOS is the problem with Shape [Bone]. You normally can't bones, unless you want to pull teeth. I guess you could rip out ork/troll horns...

For trolls I would say shape them to act as a blindfold.
Modular Man
QUOTE (Makki @ Nov 13 2011, 10:46 PM) *
the only limitation is Line of Sight. You have to see, what you want to shape. I learned Shape Concrete during Ghost Cartels and had lots of fun and good uses. Making a tunnel, a ramp, a barricade, etc...

Oh yes, it's definitely on my list of spells-to-learn.
QUOTE (Socinus @ Nov 13 2011, 09:00 PM) *
Shape [Bone], I'm not sure how you'd calculate the effects of this because you could, with very little effort, kill someone almost instantly.

Shape [Skin], again, awesome but it seems like you could very easily kill someone with it (it'd be...messy).

Did you ever play "Vampire: The Masquerade"? (The P&P, not the PC game, of course) I've heard that there is something similar there...

Personally, I'm using "Shape Fire" as long as my GM allows me to go all Pyro (see "X-Men 2 & 3"-movies or the comics) on my enemies.
GMs are advised to view any applications of the spell closely, though. Just imagine what "Shape Air" could do, e.g. an instant vacuum or something...
Christian Lafay
QUOTE (Modular Man @ Nov 14 2011, 12:55 AM) *
Did you ever play "Vampire: The Masquerade"? (The P&P, not the PC game, of course) I've heard that there is something similar there...

In VtM you actually have to use your hands to do it.
Dez384
QUOTE (Modular Man @ Nov 13 2011, 06:55 PM) *
GMs are advised to view any applications of the spell closely, though. Just imagine what "Shape Air" could do, e.g. an instant vacuum or something...


My resident chemist wants to use Shape [water] to create a vacuum inside a body of water, and then collapse it to create a small scale nuclear fission reaction...
Stalag
QUOTE (Modular Man @ Nov 13 2011, 07:55 PM) *
Personally, I'm using "Shape Fire" as long as my GM allows me to go all Pyro (see "X-Men 2 & 3"-movies or the comics) on my enemies.

Well.. strictly speaking, Fire isn't a "Material"... it's a chemical process resulting in the release of energy... just sayin wink.gif


Generally speaking, "Shape Fire" seems perfectly reasonable... though I'd probably call it "Manipulate Fire"
HunterHerne
QUOTE (Stalag @ Nov 13 2011, 08:49 PM) *
Well.. strictly speaking, Fire isn't a "Material"... it's a chemical process resulting in the release of energy... just sayin wink.gif


Generally speaking, "Shape Fire" seems perfectly reasonable... though I'd probably call it "Manipulate Fire"


It may be a chemical process, but it is one of the shape choices directly listed (and used for an example)
Stalag
QUOTE (HunterHerne @ Nov 13 2011, 08:59 PM) *
It may be a chemical process, but it is one of the shape choices directly listed (and used for an example)

So is that more embarrassing for me for not noticing that or the SR writers for actually including it?
HunterHerne
QUOTE (Stalag @ Nov 13 2011, 09:03 PM) *
So is that more embarrassing for me for not noticing that or the SR writers for actually including it?


Both... maybe?
Christian Lafay
If we can shape energy I think it's time to take the radiation in Glow City for a walk...
Modular Man
QUOTE (Stalag @ Nov 14 2011, 02:49 AM) *
Well.. strictly speaking, Fire isn't a "Material"... it's a chemical process resulting in the release of energy... just sayin wink.gif


Generally speaking, "Shape Fire" seems perfectly reasonable... though I'd probably call it "Manipulate Fire"

From a physical point of view, you are right. Yet, "Street Magic" varies from strict physics; it's magic, after all. P. 174 explicitly gives the example of "Fire". After all, the need to give the spell a concisive name may have blurred the exact physical look of the whole thing wink.gif

Oh, well, looks like it took me way too long to formulate an answer.

Again, look at the spell from a simple rules-mechanical point of view: It's a simple manipulation spell with a moderate to slightly high drain factor. If it comes to shatter the earth with its weight, something's off.
Ascalaphus
QUOTE (Christian Lafay @ Nov 14 2011, 02:07 AM) *
If we can shape energy I think it's time to take the radiation in Glow City for a walk...


Well, that's got a problem of its own; mana and radioactivity are known to interact weirdly, often toxically...
Ol' Scratch
Why would it matter? Spells still have limited ranges and areas of effect, nor would it intensify any existing effects. That wouldn't be any more potent a spell than Shape Air, Shape Earth, or any other Shape [Abundant Element In the Area] spell. Probably less so, really, since the OR would be extraordinarily high on top of any of the background count that's most likely in the area.
Christian Lafay
IF it is possible the question is also conversation of energy. It has to go somewhere if it can be moved. Unless we can squeeze it all into a very bad lead box.
Mercer
I don't know how useful shape concrete would be, since most important things made of concrete (floors, load-bearing walls and so on) have a lot of rebar in them. You could make firing ports through them, but you'd still have to cut (or shape) the steel to get through it.
Christian Lafay
Well the concrete is poured around the rebar so you could just place and then shape it. Or you could use a different shape spell to use better material that is usually too much a pain in the ass to use. Time to hit the junk yards and recycle like mad fiend.


Now I'm worried about the dangerous applications. Shape holes in planes for explosive decompression or shape holes in boats for a quiet sinking.
HunterHerne
QUOTE (Mercer @ Nov 13 2011, 10:02 PM) *
I don't know how useful shape concrete would be, since most important things made of concrete (floors, load-bearing walls and so on) have a lot of rebar in them. You could make firing ports through them, but you'd still have to cut (or shape) the steel to get through it.


Still makes holes that can be a pain for opposition, or walls to block opponents.
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (Christian Lafay @ Nov 13 2011, 07:46 PM) *
IF it is possible the question is also conversation of energy. It has to go somewhere if it can be moved. Unless we can squeeze it all into a very bad lead box.

The spell does nothing like that whatsoever. The exact effects are laid out in its description, just like with every other spell in the game. The material being shaped isn't improved/reduced/altered. Only its shape changes. Even if you did squeeze it all into a tiny little ball, that tiny little ball won't do any more inherent damage than it did in its original form.
Christian Lafay
QUOTE (Ol' Scratch @ Nov 14 2011, 04:05 AM) *
The spell does nothing like that whatsoever. The exact effects are laid out in its description, just like with every other spell in the game. The material being shaped isn't improved/reduced/altered. Only its shape changes. Even if you did squeeze it all into a tiny little ball, that tiny little ball won't do any more inherent damage than it did in its original form.

Looking over the spell finally (not a magic man, sorry) it says that things can be extinguished. So IF Shape Radiation is possible you could just erase it... No?
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (Christian Lafay @ Nov 13 2011, 09:25 PM) *
Looking over the spell finally (not a magic man, sorry) it says that things can be extinguished. So IF Shape Radiation is possible you could just erase it... No?

For as long as you sustain the spell, and only within the limited area of the spell.
Christian Lafay
That is odd. Not that i'm disputing it, but it is odd that a fire would burst back into existance after the spell is dropped... Damn you metahumanity! Start finding the science behind magic!
Yerameyahu
Is the principle that you can't mess with sub-parts of living wholes just gone now? I'd never let anyone Shape Bone, etc. The spells that violate this principle (like Turn to Goo) are nothing but errors.
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Nov 13 2011, 10:48 PM) *
Is the principle that you can't mess with sub-parts of living wholes just gone now? I'd never let anyone Shape Bone, etc. The spells that violate this principle (like Turn to Goo) are nothing but errors.

Except that there's plenty of spells that do that, including most Health spells. Wounds are only part of a body. Diseases, drugs, and bacteria can't be seen and exist largely within a living body, yet they can be affected by spells. Tons of spells only affect the brain, and not just that but only small parts thereof. Fashion affects the target's clothing. etc.
pbangarth
Shape [Fire] is not actually a deviation from a restriction to material things. The flames are not pure energy, but rather gasses that have a lot of energy imparted to them, making them glow. Shape [Radiation] may or may not fit this restriction depending on the type of radiation. it would be interesting to figure out just what would happen if particles travelling at or near the speed of light were contained by magic. Where would the kinetic energy go? Turn to heat? Light?
Yerameyahu
A wounded target is a whole target, as are immune responses. I don't admit that there are any 'brain-only' spells. The target's clothing is not part of the target. None of these examples are anything like killing someone by Shape Bone.
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Nov 13 2011, 11:17 PM) *
A wounded target is a whole target, as are immune responses. I don't admit that there are any 'brain-only' spells. The target's clothing is not part of the target. None of these examples are anything like killing someone by Shape Bone.

Well, by that logic then you have "target with bones," which is exactly the same as "wounded target." The target has [wounds/bones] and the spell affects their [wounds/bones]. Completely interchangeable.

There are also plenty of spells that only affect the brain or other organ/group of organs. Practically every illusion, most sensory-based detection spells, Influence, Control Thoughts ("the target has [thoughts] and the spell affects their [thoughts]"), etc.

Also, if clothing is considered separate, I guess you require magicians to cast multiple Invisibility spells when they want to go invisible? I mean, they have to cast it to cover every article of clothing, each weapons, each individual piece of gear they're carrying...

You're free to be in denial all you like (much like you did with Turn To Goo), but this has always been the case. The magical "law" about only affecting a specific part of a target has been broken on a regular basis by the design teams since the law was first introduced. It's just accepted because, frankly, the law is stupid and completely destroys many, many spells. I'm not even sure why they included that silly law to begin with other than to protect buildings and massive vehicles like aircraft carriers.
Midas
QUOTE (Udoshi @ Nov 13 2011, 07:51 PM) *
I looked into this earlier for an urban mage concept.

Shape Electricty and Shape Metal (given that shadowrun apparently uses Ferrocrete to make buildings. I wish I could find that thread on here ages ago that listed a bunch of common shadowrunverse building materials). Shape plastic may also be good.

Had a quick look for your thread, but me limited search-fu came up blank ...

Yeah, I think Shape Metal, Shape Concrete and Shape Plastic could be used to great effect in combination. Throw in Artisan with any of these and you could get a mage with a great day job as a sculptor ...

As for Shape Bone or Shape Skin, I wouldn't allow them as nasty offensive spells, although might as healing-type spells ...
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (Makki @ Nov 13 2011, 09:46 PM) *
the only limitation is Line of Sight. You have to see, what you want to shape. I learned Shape Concrete during Ghost Cartels and had lots of fun and good uses. Making a tunnel, a ramp, a barricade, etc...
Just hope that no walls are covered with paint or wallpaper.
Kirk
Actually, for shape bone and such I think I'd bring in part of the spell's restrictions:
QUOTE
Loose material can be moved and re-shaped easily,
but material that is connected or reinforced (such as walls
or other material part of a structure) must be broken apart
by reducing its Structure rating by Force points per Combat
Turn.


So you want to shape bone? great - first you've got to break it apart from the body.
Yerameyahu
There's, again, no reason to say that mental spells are affecting only the brain. Healing wounds is healing the person. Ho do you even get LOS on their bones? Nonsense. It's totally different, not 'interchangeable'. Invisibility is irrelevant, because it's affecting something *more* than the whole, not *less*. We're talking about separately targeting and affecting an integrated sub-part of a living whole. Go ahead and list the 'many, many', btw, and we'll see if they're worth it. Turn to Goo sure isn't, and could easily be fixed.
Ascalaphus
I also don't think Shape Bone should work on internal bones. That basically makes it a non-Combat spell doing rather odd damage requiring optional special injury rules to work, which is icky. I'm not sure it's going to be Drain-costed fairly for the unknown damage it deals. Also the issue of LOS.

The entire spell is written in terms of Object Resistance, Power and Structure Rating, terms which only apply to inanimate objects. I think this is one of those cases where game designers actually consider "material" to be "inanimate material".

Don't get me wrong - a Twist Bone spell could be a cool spell to scare people with, and deserves to be in the arsenal of say, Blood Mages, but it should probably be built as a Combat spell, not created by twisting around this one.
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ Nov 14 2011, 04:06 PM) *
I also don't think Shape Bone should work on internal bones. That basically makes it a non-Combat spell doing rather odd damage requiring optional special injury rules to work, which is icky. I'm not sure it's going to be Drain-costed fairly for the unknown damage it deals.
Sounds like Vicissitude in oWoD.

QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ Nov 14 2011, 04:06 PM) *
Don't get me wrong - a Twist Bone spell could be a cool spell to scare people with, and deserves to be in the arsenal of say, Blood Mages, but it should probably be built as a Combat spell, not created by twisting around this one.
Nope. Combat spells are not spells used in or for combat but those that directly deal damage to targets. This should either be an illusion (if the target only thinks that its bones are warped) or a manipulation spell (if actual warping occurs). There will still be the LOS issue. Twist limbs will be much easier to accomplish via manipulation, because limbs are usually visible.

BTW. You could just change the fluff of (mass) Agony to get a mechanical sub-par version of the illusion spell or you change the description of the orgasm/orgy spell for more power.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Christian Lafay @ Nov 13 2011, 06:46 PM) *
IF it is possible the question is also conversation of energy. It has to go somewhere if it can be moved. Unless we can squeeze it all into a very bad lead box.


Energy Talks? Who Knew? smile.gif
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Ol' Scratch @ Nov 13 2011, 08:29 PM) *
For as long as you sustain the spell, and only within the limited area of the spell.


Seeing as how Shape Spells are permanent...
Christian Lafay
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Nov 14 2011, 05:16 PM) *
Energy Talks? Who Knew? smile.gif

Fire does have that snap, crackle, and pop similar to scat music. Yeah, I know, a reach.
Paul
QUOTE (Christian Lafay @ Nov 14 2011, 11:19 AM) *
Fire does have that snap, crackle, and pop similar to scat music. Yeah, I know, a reach.


A lot of Shaodwrun is about the intent of an act.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Christian Lafay @ Nov 14 2011, 09:19 AM) *
Fire does have that snap, crackle, and pop similar to scat music. Yeah, I know, a reach.


Heh... No worries. Fire talks... Have you ever listened to the Beast?
Ascalaphus
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Nov 14 2011, 04:17 PM) *
Sounds like Vicissitude in oWoD.


Yes, and that discipline has got some serious issues with it too.

Actually, I think most game systems that use abstract damage (health levels, hit points, condition monitor) have trouble with non-abstract damage (shaping bone).


QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Nov 14 2011, 04:17 PM) *
Nope. Combat spells are not spells used in or for combat but those that directly deal damage to targets. This should either be an illusion (if the target only thinks that its bones are warped) or a manipulation spell (if actual warping occurs). There will still be the LOS issue. Twist limbs will be much easier to accomplish via manipulation, because limbs are usually visible.


I suppose there's a case to be made for a Manipulation spell, but it should be a separate, new spell, not twisting this one to work on animate matter. With explicit description of the damage it can do.
Christian Lafay
Can't say I have. Been too busy with Shape spells and thinking about building a cheap dome. It would be like a giant auto-igloo.....

And building a new office tower by using all the broken buildings in an area.
Modular Man
Use "Shape Concrete" for the construction of a secret underground lair or for reinforcing abandoned buildings smile.gif
Well, that's what I'll do aside from building ramps out of sidewalks and walls, maybe even the streets themselves, and digging through walls all the way. Just combine it with some tool to deal with other materials.
I'd say that concrete nowadays is one of the main building materials not just used in thin layers (like the metallic mesh in reinforced concrete). I may be in error, though.
stevebugge
Earth, Air, Fire, and Water would probably be allowed not so much because they are material or immaterial in a physics science sense, but because they are the traditional Elements in Hermetic Magic, and the ability to shape and manipulate them would probably (at one time) have been considered a basic magic skill.
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