We have a very regular discussion about the attention "bigger" guns may cause during our runs. I usually play mages and don´t carry guns, so i didn´t have to think about it in the past. But I just started running with a phys-ad and now these problem is starting to touch my char, too.

I have been in the german bundeswehr, so i have at least a little impression of how big different weapons are. I know that Pistols under a big jacket shouldn´t be a problem to conceal, MP´s on the other side (depends on the model) should cause a lot more attention. I know that an assault rifle is BIG, and an MG is even bigger. And here the trouble starts:

I say, that a MG is bigger than an assault rifle, but not THAT much bigger. Most people doesn´t even know the exact difference. If you run around with an Assault Rifle or with an MG makes no difference for citizens or security forces. Both are big, both are illegal, both are military weapons. Security forced don´t react differently just because you "only" carry an assault rifle instead of an MG. There is no "low-risk" SWAT for gangsters with Assault rifles and a "military armor" SWAT for the goon with the MG. If you shoot, there should also be no big difference in noise that amateurs could differ. It is automatic fire with high-calibre-rounds and the citizens head for cover and call the Star...

So what do you think about this? Does it matter if my troll carries an MMG instead of an Assault Rifle? Is there a difference between a Vindicator and a Gauscannon?

Generally, if it's bigger than an SMG, it's advisable to keep it well hidden in box/storage until you need it. Exception goes to sport rifles and shotguns, they're somewhat less intimidating and the cops may actually ask questions before shooting.

If you can break down the gun, you could carry an assault rifle discreetly, maybe a LMG if you're a troll. Rule of thumb that I give for gun breakdowns is to reduce the concealability modifier by 4. So an SMG would be about as easy to hide as a heavy pistol. A heavy pistol becomes about as easy to hide as a hold out pistol. Keep those bits in a guitar case or even under a longcoat, you can walk with them in public without the corp drones calling the cops ASAP.

Once the shooting starts, autofire and explosions pretty much means the SWAT gets called in ASAP. Anything bigger than a pistol also garners more police attention than a few squad cars for backup. Granted, this assumes you're in an area that actually HAS police protection or hired security. If it's just gang turf, then they might ignore you depending on the circumstances.

Sure, but what if you carry the weapons assembled and unhidden?

Not really much to add here. Anything openly carried in public that looks like a military weapon (Assault rifles, MGs, bigger stuff) is going to get the police's hairy eyeball. Better have a license for that thing.

Ok, so YOU would agree, that if you run around with a big gun (SMG, Assault Rifle, MG or bigger) the security agency responsible for this area is busting your nuts. There is no difference between the type of weapon if you start shooting it.

I agree on your opinions if they applied to present day Germany or even the USA, but the problem is the rules say otherwise. Most assault rifles have restricted availability, meaning everyone can get a license to own, carry and use such weapons. Even LMGs however are forbidden.
So an AR should not get you different treatment than a pistol. It draws more attention however as it is more difficult to conceal. The question is are LEOs allowed to ask for a license without any provocation on your part and what are they allowed to do if you stroll around with a visible weapon. Is this different form cars, whose operation should be restricted as well even if their acquisition is not.

Hmmm...i have to think about that. Licences....going to stuffer shack with an AR.....nobody can f*ck you up, not even the Star/Knight.....sounds good.

On the street, pistols and smaller will get little if any notice. SMGs and machine pistols will get some attention unless well hidden, carrying a license for one is a good idea. Longarms and assault rifles that are merely "restricted" CAN theoretically be carried openly but you'd better have a license if you carry it in "civilized" areas. Generally LEOs will check your PAN for a license, in fact it may be the legal requirement. No license means you get to have a nice chat with the local police and a free ride to the precinct for illegal possession (and anything else they can come up with). Assault rifles tend to generate more "concerned citizens" than a shotgun or hunting rifle.

Cars are similar. Most police vehicles will just automatically scan the vehicle for license/registration/driver info/ticket info and so on. If you aren't broadcasting a proper ID, then you get pulled over and fined at the very least.

I might add that even if you DO carry an AR legally, you WILL attract a lot of (probably) unwanted attention.

How much more attention do i get, if i replace the AR with an LMG in a "not so good" (C and lower) area?

I'm curious. How many of you have fired a machine gun? How many of have seen or heard one fired? And finally what would you do if you saw someone carrying a machine gun?

An M60 weighs around 23 pounds, and is 43 or so inches in length. By way of comparison the M16A2 is about 7 and a half pounds and 39 inches long. It doesn't sound like much of a difference until you start adding ammunition, and factor in that an M16 is designed to be pretty easily carried and fired by an individual. An M60 is typically a crew served weapon. This means in order to effectively operate it most people need more than one person to operate it.

Having fired both of these weapons I can say that the noise level is significantly different between the two.

Now that said the rest kind of depends on the game you run. I think that the logical reaction of any one who's unarmed encountering someone carrying a weapon is basically fear. (Some people will have better training, a friendlier disposition with the PC's, etc....) I think they'd initially try to avoid a PC openly carrying. Some, may be civically responsible type who call the local version of the cops. (Knight Errant, their street gang, the corp cops, etc...) Obviously your mileage will vary-especially depending on the style at your table.

Frankly, its a MACHINE GUN. Its going to draw some significant concern.

Think about this: You own a Pagani Zonda. No matter where you go, its going to attract attention. I feel its the same deal as a LMG.

A rare car will attract attention, but it won't get you thrown in a cell or shot (not from the LEOs at least).

First: blame on you, making me google for the Pagani Zonda^^.

Second: I read all the SR novels and i think that i basically know what can be done and what should be left. AR in a crisis-zone or a Z-area - no problem. Bit better surrounding: maximum an MP that can be concealed at least a bit. Pistols for everything else. Big weaponry was usually for securitiy forces with the corresponding licenses and in the approbriate area. Going ANYWHERE with something bigger and unconcealed causes unwanted attention. Therefore it will not go into my head, that there should be a significant difference between an app. 1000 mm military weapon and a 1200 mm military weapon.

I always chuckle when I have a player who thinks living in a Z zone or operating in one means they're safe. Sure they're likely to not see a cop anytime soon. But that homeless guy and his buddies? The ones who live in conditions that's make a devil rat cringe, yeah they see you and your stuff. It's not a constant concern because that'd bog the game down and be no fun. But every once in a while it's good to remind people that other people want what you have.

Yeah, but I imagine having some obvious military/security hardware will tend to discourage casual "involuntary transfer of possession".
Doesn't mean a desperate bastard won't try once in a while though.

Eh. Slap Chameleon Coat on an MG and you can probably carry it slung over your shoulder in the streets of some areas without attracting too much attention. It won't look like a weapon even if people do notice a blur there, so the likely reaction from passerby would be at most "Huh, that's weird" rather than "OMG a gun!"

This generally won't work in security zones or at checkpoints. Might make hiding the weapon easier if you are also taking other steps to conceal them, though - a cloaked MG amongst a bunch of mops and brooms in a janitor's cart might not get noticed, for example.



-k

Depends on location. Some areas it wouldn't do more than bat an eye, others might have 5 Knight's Errant cars show up with weapons drawn. For most runners I don't think it matters much if LEOs are allowed to ask for a license, if they want to in many places in UCAS they will, and in some areas at the point of their own gun. Runners in (non Philly) Pennsylvania might be ok and not get asked much for their licenses, but its not going to work like that in NYC. Even in UCAS many areas probably woudn't bat an eye at a browning max-power in a hip holster.

The difference in a machinegun and assault rifle is somewhat significant, usually about 10 pounds (for the difference between a LMG and AR) dry. Assault rifles are select fire rifles of intermediate cartridge size with a barrel usually 20" or less. A machine gun uses a full size cartridge (though the distinction is blurred of late in the light machinegun type) is usually belt fed and is designed to fire for long durations; they are usually 15 pounds or more in weight (most AR's are about 4-8 lbs) and include a mount of some sort, usually a bipod for LMG and tripod for MMG or HMG. The easy way to see the difference is an AR looks like a rifle, a MG looks like something you wouldn't want to fire from the shoulder, or couldn't fire from the shoulder because there is no shoulder stock.

I think i go with the "big matchbag" and if the things turn bad.....surprise^^

I have fired everything from SMG's to Heavy Machine Guns on Active Duty. I have actively carried in the field (Former US Marine) my M16, a M240 SAW, and an M60 MG. All CAN be fired independantly. The M60 works best, however, if you have an A-GUnner to help lug that ammunition. If I witnessed someone actively carrying any of the above, I would check to see if they are "Police/Military" first. If not, I would call the "Police" to inform them that some whacked out Crazy is carrying serious amounts of firepower openly.



Yes, the sound signature is vastly different between the two weapons. The Sound signature between the M16A2 and the M249 is also significantly different, even though the weapons use the same ammunition.



Pretty much how we run it too.

Ummmmm.... Every Machine Gun I have ever fired, with the exception of HMG's like the M2 Browning, all have shoulder stocks. And yes, I have fired them extensively using the Shoulder Stock, in multiple positions (Standing, Sitting, Kneeling, Prone). The recoil is not all that significant if you know how to control the weapon properly (at least for me anyways). In the prone position, I could fire Full Auto all day long (and have actually done so) with no real physical discomfort at all. It is not as difficult as you would think.

Heck, even MGs that don't normally have shoulder stocks often have crazy people making and selling third-party modification accessories available to attach one.

I mean, it'd still be a bad idea on some models, but if you wanted to do it you could.




-k

I was referring to standing position, sorry, I should have been more specific. MMGs many times don't have shoulder stocks such as the browning 1919. And I don't want to shoot 20+lb MG from the shoulder while standing, my arms would wear out

not to mention, setting. In SR the troll can consider a m-60 sized weapon a rifle, and a stocked M2 to be a squad support weapon due to size and strength

I hear the sweds did that with their brownings.

I agree that the average citizen isn't going to make a distinction: they're going to hear shots, or see big ugly death staring them in the face, and they're going to run screaming or freeze or call the cops or whatever: it doesn't matter if it's an SMG or an HMG, they're going to have approximately the same response, because they're not familiar with the individual weapons [and because they spell equal amounts of death for the average citizen, anyway].

The response of a security force, in my game, would depend on the level of security force. An arcology lobby rent-a-cop might not respond any differently than a civilian,* but a member of a high-threat response team is going to treat a situation with LMGs very differently than one with assault rifles. Assault rifles are really just hunting rifles with bigger clips and automatic fire, after all: if I wanted an "assault rifle," I could have one with $50 and a bread tie. But if I'm carrying - and using - a light machine gun, that HTR commander is going to know that I have access to military weaponry, highly restricted and dangerous material that can do serious life and property damage, all out of proportion with what an assault rifle can do.


Absolutely, but if were a SWAT commander, my actions would be much more swift, and much more decisive, if the shadowrunning team had military weaponry. [I would also be more likely to bring my own military weaponry.] Because the risk to civilians and property is so much higher, I would be justified in taking more risky actions myself.

It's like the calculation a police officer makes when you're speeding: if he has to turn around in heavy traffic and pull you over on a street with no shoulder, and you're only going a little over the speed limit, he won't pull you over, because the danger he would present in pulling you over is greater than the danger you represent speeding. But if you're going twice the speed limit and driving erratically, the danger you present is greater, so he can and should take more risks.

The SWAT team is also going to bring radically different equipment, depending on what the opposition is fielding. I'm not going to break out my chopper and my riot control vehicle for three guys with M-16s, but if you've got military weaponry, I'm going to need to field a military response. That means the manpower and material required to counteract what you've brought.

If your shadowrunning team shows up with a mortar and a heavy machine gun and anti-tank weapons, the police response is going to be tactically very different, and strategically very different, than if you were the same guys with AK-47s. The civilians can't tell the difference, and the bullets the cops will shoot at you can't tell the difference, but the cops themselves sure can.

*Although he might be a veteran, and know exactly what he's dealing with. I like to keep players guessing.

Gotcha. And yes, it can get tiring. And honestly, I much porefer the under the arm "Rambo" method for the standing position, but when you absolutely have to have accuracy (and general spraying is not good enough), and you don't have time to change positions, you can shoot the M60 from the shoulder standing.

bigger clips? like this: http://www.google.com/imgres?q=assault+cli...94&hovw=259

"Sir, that Troll has a Panther Assault Cannon just slung over his shoulder!" "Let him go." "WHAT?" "Check his SIN info. He's got a permit for that, and works for the IRS. Poor bugger needs more than that. A lot more, but that's the best they'll give him."

"Beware of Strong Drink – it can make you shoot at tax collectors – and miss!" ?

And now they shoot back.

I remember The Chrome Accountant saying he was with the IRS and got into Shadowrunning as the pay was better and it was less dangerous.

Heavy Weapons have their place. But you have to try and be subtle about it.

Putting the Panther Assault Cannon over your shoulder, and then grabbing the Elf Face suddenly and draping him over it, over his cries of help and surprise, doesn't work. As one group of demo players found out.

This is absolutely understandable and logical, but one thing (which is the main argue we have at the moment) doesn´t change: no matter if you run around with an MG or ar AR, you get a SWAT (or similar) if you don´t hide them or if you are insane enough to fire with one. And if the SWAT arrives, the run usually is over.

"SWAT Helicopter is coming in!" "I got something just for this occasion." *Fires Surface-To-Air Missile, Helicopter Falls* "OK, we got at least a few more minutes before the Guard Tanks start arriving now."

Out of the frying pan, into the fire.

Arms escalation never ends well for a Shadowrunner.

Only if you are slow. The trick is to complete the run before the GM realizes what you're doing.

That's why its best to start big and move fast.

Plenty of time to cheese it.

Well, unless you need it quiet.

Generally, you want to avoid contact as much as possible, then use the best stuff you have when shit hits the fan. Ideally, you are LEAVING the building when you open up your can of whoopass. Shooting your way into a secure zone is a great way to waste bullets and end the run as quickly as possible.

Not if you color you mohawk pink.

One should always assume the caveat: Except for those pink mohawk days, then all bets are off.

Pink Mohawks for the distraction, Ice Cold for the Op.

How is an Submachinegun or automatic pistol any different from Assault Rifles and Machine Guns? All three are Military Weapons (or would "weapons of war" be a better translation for Kriegswaffen?) according to present German law. AFAIK they are all restricted in the USA as well since the assault weapons ban.

The thing is in SR legally there is no difference between the first three and a semiautomatic pistol or a hunting rifle, with the exception of weapons with attached grenade launchers and other wierdness (P93). So what right do cops in SR have to behave differently if they spot you sporting M23 instead of a Remington 990? Should they have such rights I think it should be mentioned in one of the source book. Or you could go with any firearm is trouble.

Um. none are restricted(edit: in the USA by the feds). The illegal assault weapons ban sunseted back in 2004. Of course that law never had any impact on actual assault rifles, submachineguns, or MGs. Those are covered by NFA and an illegal amendment to an 86 law. Automatics are legal in the US, just expensive and were made before 86'.

As to the trouble it can bring, that's up to the area you're running in, whether you have a SIN and any required permits, and what you are doing. If you're going to a meet with the johnson at starbucks in Cali with a Cali legal Remington 990 then Lonestar might check to see you're abiding the law and go on his way; of course the Johnson might decide you are too overt for his needs or just perfect...

And if you aren't carrying a permit, you might get somewhere between a fine and jail time, depending on how nice you are to the friendly local 'star and how illegal/dangerous your gun is. So a pistol and a nice smile might let you skate by with a fine or confiscation.

Yeah, if you have an illegal Colt Asp, you might even talk your way with a bribe, too. "Honestly, Officer, the Paperwork is held up somewhere, but there's been threats on my life. Here, see, it's even loaded with Gel Rounds so I won't even really hurt anyone." *The EX-EX Rounds in the skinpocket, OTOH*

You'd be surprised how many places have that as a legal way to carry concealed without a permit. The excuse that is, not the bribe...

What Do you mean by the illegal amendment and "made before 86"? Can't you own automatics that were manufactured after 1986?

I didn't want to say that it was a good idea, I just wanted top know if there is a law in SR that allows different treatment for similarly dangerous items.

In 86' a law was passed with an attachement that made it against the law to make, buy or sell automatics to citizens other than those that were made and had their tax paid before the law was passed. The law is illegal because it goes against the highest set of laws of the land the Constitution.

In Seattle in SR3 there are legality codes that deal with different items. For instance AK-97 is 2G meaning possession is ok but, transport, use and intent will be punished. Uzi III is 4G so transport is even ok, but use is illegal. and the Ingram Valiant is 1H meaning possession is illegal; which is strange because the larger machineguns are legal for possession...

For me, this would depend on the jurisdiction. Some areas wouldn't have SWAT teams at all; in others, "guys with assault rifles" happens too often to bother sending the SWAT team they do have. But better neighborhoods, absolutely, automatic weapons fire of any kind at all is going to get a SWAT team; in some places, shots fired at all would get SWAT out.

This isn't any different today. If I take an AR-15 and walk out my door, shooting at anyone who drives by, I'm not going to get a SWAT team. I'm going to get five local cops with squad cars and shotguns and that's it; they'll have backup on the way, but they're not waiting. If I took hostages, and there was an hour to get SWAT here, yeah, maybe they'd bring in SWAT from the city, but it's probably going to be over by then. But if I were downtown, in an office building, with a team of guys in masks? Well, yeah: the SWAT team is three minutes away, and not doing something else, of course they'll be there.


When I think about it, this depends on the locality, too: in some places, shadowrunners are the best-equipped people for miles, and arms escalation works out great for them then. But in a primarily A-C-neighborhood urban setting, yeah, it's a good way to get shot up a whole lot.

Just remember some gangs/outfits in the Z zones will take runners walking around with hardware as threats and react accordingly

To some it's you possibly bringing down a lot of heat, showing disrespect to them, or being seen as not caring about their authority.

Sure they may be under-gunned, but most gangs can field a mage/shaman or two. Plus a team of runners is still going to get burned down by a gang with smgs/pistols and the random shotgun due to numbers. Plus there is always the guy with the sport rifle and some training that can pick off a heavy hitter before he can react (remember the go to sniper rifle irl is basically what the average joe uses to hunt deer)

This is something that's always bothered me in Shadowrun. I mean they still have the history channel right? So I mean almost everyone is going to know what chameleon coating is? And really as I see it just because it's "difficult to see correctly" doesn't equate to stupid. *Shrugs* Obviously things like distance from target being observed, ambient light conditions, time of exposure, etc...I'm not saying it's impossible just that this sort of thing seems less likely than the rules as written might suggest it to be.

Of course if all you need is a few seconds-and well people see what they want to see as often as not. Again, I'm divided. Too many conditional factors here for me to give a coherent answer.