Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Bioware Mage - Opinions
Dumpshock Forums > Discussion > Shadowrun
The Wrestling Troll
Hi everyone!

I'm trying to make a new Character and wanted to make a Mage with some Bioware Upgrades. Making him Viable in Spellcasting but also in Combat and other Skills. Our GM gives us 50'000 Nuyen + 50 Karma as startboost for our Campaign So I had a little bit more of free space with higher Stats and Skills.

Concept is that my Mage mainly uses Manipulation Magic but also got a Monofilament Whip Weapon Focus 4 to battle Spirits. I tried my Best to min/max his Attributes and Skills upon what costs more BP/Karma during creating and areer phase. And yes I know, he's a total social cripple without any manners ... but I needed those points for other stuff

I would love if someone could give me some good Feedback about him!
If you like my Character feel free to use him for your Campaign or whatever. As long as you don't repost him somewhere without giving me some credit for it smile.gif

[ Spoiler ]
Ryu
Hey!

MinMaxed threw me off a bit. Yes, you minmaxed your added karma by only buying BP:karma 1:1 stuff.

As for the rest:
- your weapon focus is currently worthless on the astral plane. 8P damage is nice but available from mana bolt AND unlikely to connect without Astral Combat skill.

- on the physical plane you get a very expensive close combat weapon with the ability to slice anything without exceptional close combat defense pool. Good if you dont like the standard manabolt.

- Is that magic 6(5) or magic 5(4)? (Id prefer the latter for cost reasons, and handle it as Magic 4(3) bought up with 20 karma to Magic 4.)

- Your qualities seem off:
-- Genetic Heritage on a Minotaur, please explain. Besides that Restricted Gear(Cerebral Booster 3) (ressources -10k) on top of Logic 4 is cheaper and ends at the same pool and essence.
-- Wanted + distinctive style + being a manic spellcaster... be very afraid.

- Some of those karma points should buy a Magic Group. 5 Karma for a bunch of friends and cheaper Initiations. Speaking of those, Grade 2 should be the minimum with a 50 karma headstart.

- I suspect the whole concept would be easier to build with karma-gen.
The Wrestling Troll
thanks fot pointing some flaws out for me!
what would be a better option to fight spirits with a weapon focus?
drop monowhip skill to 2 and raise astral combat to 3 instead?

Ryu
That would be better, yes. Your physical attacks would still work at dp 12 / 8P-4. You will still be in danger of counterattack from any spirit of force 5+ since you defend with Intuition+Astral Combat.
The Wrestling Troll
well.seems like i cant have only the best smile.gif
seems good.enough fot me sincr our gm rarely uses bad ass spirits
Ryu
QUOTE (The Wrestling Troll @ Nov 29 2011, 01:39 PM) *
well.seems like i cant have only the best smile.gif
seems good.enough fot me sincr our gm rarely uses bad ass spirits

Heh. You didnt hope for the best when choosing a Weapon Focus requiring extra skills over a simple manabolt. So the primary goal should be "making it work". Force 5 will be about your equal in astral combat - less damage output, but better defense pool, about the same initiative.

What is your reason for choosing a minotaur?

Are you allowed to use karmagen?
The Wrestling Troll
My reason to choose a minotaur is, because they're freaking awesome and I love to play a big angry cow/troll smile.gif
Also it gave me a bonus to Body hehe

I reworked the whole thing a bit and I think I got now a more suitable Character for facing Spirits. I wanted to play a Mage that could also fight People and Spirits without the need for casting spells. I know that a manabolt would be a much more "efficient" way but I just like the idea of a monowhip swinging big angry cow for fluff reasons wink.gif

No, sadly we are not allowed to use Karmagen. Our Gm doesn't have any experience with it and all the other guys at our table used BP to create their characters.


As soon as I arrive home, I will post you the newest version of my character.
Hope you can give me some more quality advice! Since I'm experienced with Shadowrun but never played a min/max/optimized Mage before. So I often overlook some fine (and important) details during Character generation!

Thanks a lot that you took your time to help me !


The Wrestling Troll
I'm at home now finally, so here's the "new character". The new Character has only Magic 4, but I can raise that after some SR sessions with my Team.
Got any idea how to improve it? If this doesn't work out well I might be considering making a bad-ass summoner instead. But the idea of a Whip swinging mad cow still is just awesome biggrin.gif

[ Spoiler ]
Ryu
Body 7 is at this point not worth 10 BP IMO. Body 6 should be plenty. Reaction 5 is so-and-so. Not enough to fully dodge attacks, you will still act after the properly augmented group. Consider Bod 6 / Rea 3 / Edg 4. You are also making little use of the troll strength currently.


QUOTE (Actual Active Skills)
Assensing : 4 Pool: 10
Astral Combat : 5 [Weapon Focus] Pool: 10 (12)
Banishing : 1 Pool: 5
Binding : 1 Pool: 5
Counterspelling : 4 [Combat Spells] Pool: 8 (10)
Dodge : 1 [Ranged Combat] Pool: 6 [8]
Escape Artist : 1 [Mage Cuffs] Pool: 7 (9)
Exotic Melee Weapon : 4 [Monofilament Whip] Pool: 10
Infiltration : 1 [Urban] Pool: 7 (9)
Perception : 1 [Visual] Pool: 7 (9)
Pistols : 2 [Semi-Automatics] Pool: 10 (12)
Spellcasting : 5 [Manipulation Spells] Pool: 9 (11)
Summoning : 1 Pool: 5


I would work on that list next. You buy two of your best skills for melee. Your other skills are suffering for that. I liked the 2+3 without specs combo better.

Since Banishing is not useful, less at low ratings, get Summoning 2 (favourite type +2) instead. 6 dice for Binding is not enough anyway.

Escape artist is another gimmick skill. Must you?

No social skills is not a good idea.
The Wrestling Troll
Thanks for the reply!

I didn't use the Trolls strenght, since the mono whip doesn't do any strenght based damage.
Is summoning at "low level" any good? I know that a Force 8 spirit is a pain in the ass but is it viable to summon only force 3 spirits if I just could fling a manabolt or use my whip instead?
Seems like my character idea is harder to do than I thought at the beginning. Well I like a good challenge wink.gif

Wouldn't it be statwise better if I'd make a dwarf? I could have willpower 6, logic 5 (+3 cerebral Booster) that would give me a drain attribute of 14. And drop the Astral Combat and Monowhip for Spirits and buy a spellcasting/binding/summoning focus? That way I would fight Spirits with Spirits and could overcast summoning and spellcasting better?

The thing with Edge is, our GM rarely refreshes the Edge pool and that's why almost nobody in our group has an Edge attribute higher then 2 ... which is kinda sad nyahnyah.gif

Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (The Wrestling Troll @ Nov 30 2011, 10:25 AM) *
Thanks for the reply!

I didn't use the Trolls strenght, since the mono whip doesn't do any strenght based damage.
Is summoning at "low level" any good? I know that a Force 8 spirit is a pain in the ass but is it viable to summon only force 3 spirits if I just could fling a manabolt or use my whip instead?
Forget about the monowhip weapon focus. It is expensive, needs an additional skill and is less effective than a mana/stun bolt, even against spirits. Against the weapon focus spirits or other astral roll INT+Astral Combat/Dodge to avoid it and WIL to soak, if the creature has more than 4 points of astral armor this is even added. Against the Spell they get to roll WIL. Period. 8S base damage is doable at MAG 4. So its the same damage but less resistance form the target.

Spirits at Force 3 or 4 will still be helpful. They won't go through a bunch of rentacops like a hot knife through butter, but they can still be useful.

QUOTE (The Wrestling Troll @ Nov 30 2011, 10:25 AM) *
Wouldn't it be statwise better if I'd make a dwarf? I could have willpower 6, logic 5 (+3 cerebral Booster) that would give me a drain attribute of 14. And drop the Astral Combat and Monowhip for Spirits and buy a spellcasting/binding/summoning focus? That way I would fight Spirits with Spirits and could overcast summoning and spellcasting better?
Yes.
The Wrestling Troll
Well the monofilament Whip weapon focus would have been just plain awesome as a fluff and style element, but since we have already a Sam/Tank and no other Mage in our group I think i should stick to being a full time mage smile.gif

I'll work on a dwarf concept and will post it here. Since I won't try to confront people in combat directly without a meatshield I won't need those 6 body an 5 strenght. But I still wish I could play a minotaur, just love those damn angry cows biggrin.gif

Any tips before I start constructing my mage?
Should I focus more on Spellcasting? Resisting Drain to the max? Summoning and Binding?
Haven't played a mage before so I need some of that huge dumpshock knowledge you guys got stuck up in your brains smile.gif
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (The Wrestling Troll @ Nov 30 2011, 06:13 PM) *
Well the monofilament Whip weapon focus would have been just plain awesome as a fluff and style element, but since we have already a Sam/Tank and no other Mage in our group I think i should stick to being a full time mage smile.gif
Good choice. Capable mages rarely have enough points to do much else.

QUOTE (The Wrestling Troll @ Nov 30 2011, 06:13 PM) *
Any tips before I start constructing my mage?
Should I focus more on Spellcasting? Resisting Drain to the max? Summoning and Binding?
Haven't played a mage before so I need some of that huge dumpshock knowledge you guys got stuck up in your brains smile.gif
Spells are good, Spirits are great but require more preparation. A spell is in effect after a complex action. The spirit can take action after 3 Action Phases (Summoning, Ordering, Materializing)

I'd probably go Spellcasting 5, Summoning 5, and up to four in Counterspelling and Binding.

A few other tips:
- Get a Power Focus at CharGen (maybe even Force 4 with restricted Gear). You will never get it that cheap again.
- Mentor Spirits are cool.
- Unless you want to portray someone with a broad magical education, do not take Ritual Spellcasting and Banishing at CharGen.
- Look at the spells you want to cast and decide how high your drain pool needs to be. Usually softmaxing the two stats is enough, especially if you use a race that gets a bonus to one stat (Dwarf, Elf)
- Stay away form indirect combat spells.
- General tip: Specializations are cheaper with Karma than BP.
UmaroVI
Take a look at the mages in my sig for some examples of how to build magicians.
Jhaiisiin
One suggestion: If you were really set on playing a Minotaur, don't let people dissuade you. If you follow every suggestion on DS, you'll end up with the same, cookie-cutter character we consistently see put together here. Make it yours. During play, you're not going to miss a couple of dice here and there. Play what you *want* to play first and foremost. If you want a monowhip wielding hell-cow, play that, and make it work as well as you can.
Ryu
QUOTE (Jhaiisiin @ Nov 30 2011, 07:52 PM) *
One suggestion: If you were really set on playing a Minotaur, don't let people dissuade you. If you follow every suggestion on DS, you'll end up with the same, cookie-cutter character we consistently see put together here. Make it yours. During play, you're not going to miss a couple of dice here and there. Play what you *want* to play first and foremost. If you want a monowhip wielding hell-cow, play that, and make it work as well as you can.

Agreed. Minotaur / Whip was specified. We build that.

It is tempting to invest even more BP than necessary to build a stronger fighter, but you cant really afford that luxury (IMO). You can make use of Strength by adding the Athletics group in place of Dodge(Ranged).

Low summoning is workable since the spirit only rolls force to resist Summoning. At 8 dice you can get force 4 spirits, which can provide mobile counterspelling, the fear power, Movement 4 or Concealment 4. And even more.

You will be weaker than a cookie-cutter mage, but a worthy member of many groups anyway.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Jhaiisiin @ Nov 30 2011, 11:52 AM) *
One suggestion: If you were really set on playing a Minotaur, don't let people dissuade you. If you follow every suggestion on DS, you'll end up with the same, cookie-cutter character we consistently see put together here. Make it yours. During play, you're not going to miss a couple of dice here and there. Play what you *want* to play first and foremost. If you want a monowhip wielding hell-cow, play that, and make it work as well as you can.


Agreed... Play what you Want, and mold around that.
The Wrestling Troll
Well I made now a Dwarfen Mage. Didn't read all your comments about sticking with my hell cow wink.gif

I will post him anyway! I love to play characters that are "special" and have their own kind of style and background story instead of being a mindless killing machine with maxed stats without any fluff ...
But since I never made a mage before, I thought I ask you guys so that I get the most out of char while still have something special smile.gif

I think my mage now is the standard "cookie-cutter" build you were talking about hehe

[ Spoiler ]
Ryu
You are the mage of the team. If you establish a "Summon Force 4" balance with your GM your spirit-fighting capabilities will be quite sufficient and your samurai will not be dominated by super-spirits. Consequentially the need for min-maxing magic will be much lower. You already said that your GM is not into bad-ass spirits, so this should be easy.
Dakka Dakka
I would raise BOD and lower CHA. 3 bound spirits are more than enough. More BOD will mean that you can wear more armor.
I doubt many GMs will allow the specialization for Drain on First Aid.
3 Addictions???
Armor is the worst damage mitigating spell in the grimoire. It paints a huge bullseye on you. Better take Increase BOD, Combat Sense or Deflection.
While a Force 5 Binding focus is nice, getting more dice on summoning is preferable to more dice on binding. Summoning is resisted by the spirit's Force, Binding by Force*2. You will get more net hits on the summoning roll than on the binding roll. Since all net hits transfer to the bound spirit it does not matter which roll generates the services. rebinding is a poor option compared to releasing the spirit and summoning a new one. A high Power focus is dreadfully expensive, but, in addition to aiding you in Summoning and Binding, it also aids you in Spellcasting, Ritual spellcasting and dispelling sustained spells.
The Wrestling Troll
Yeah the 3 Addictions are placeholders for the -35bp smile.gif

I thought that a Powerfocus doesn't help you with summoning and binding. At least that's what i've read in the rulebook (sorry if I'm wrong)

Anyone got experience with ally spirits? Since i got 50 free karma at charcreation after spending all the BP, I could have an ally spirit. Would be almost cooler then a monowhip smile.gif
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (The Wrestling Troll @ Nov 30 2011, 11:21 PM) *
I thought that a Powerfocus doesn't help you with summoning and binding. At least that's what i've read in the rulebook (sorry if I'm wrong)
A Power focus helps every time you roll MAG. For Summoning and Bindung, you roll MAG+Summoning/Binding.

QUOTE (The Wrestling Troll @ Nov 30 2011, 11:21 PM) *
Anyone got experience with ally spirits? Since i got 50 free karma at charcreation after spending all the BP, I could have an ally spirit. Would be almost cooler then a monowhip smile.gif
Huge pointsink. You'd want at least Force 4. That's 32 Karma already. Not to mention the cost for initiating.
Udoshi
QUOTE (The Wrestling Troll @ Nov 30 2011, 03:21 PM) *
Yeah the 3 Addictions are placeholders for the -35bp smile.gif

I thought that a Powerfocus doesn't help you with summoning and binding. At least that's what i've read in the rulebook (sorry if I'm wrong)

Anyone got experience with ally spirits? Since i got 50 free karma at charcreation after spending all the BP, I could have an ally spirit. Would be almost cooler then a monowhip smile.gif


Powerfocus helps with everything your roll Magic. on. Everything.
What do you roll for summoning?
MAGIC + summoning.
What do you roll for binding?
MAGIC + binding.
what do you roll to roll spellcasting?
MAGIC + spellcasting.
It doesn't help with Spell defense, because you do not roll magic+counterspelling for that, only to dispel active spells.

Ally spirits, however, are kind of awesome. There is, in fact, an initiatory ordeal made specifically for them, and its special because it lets you take the metamagic for that initiation, instead of requiring you have it ahead of time. It would cost you 11 karma to initiate, take the familiar ordeal, leaving you with 39 to spend elsewhere. That is enough for a force 6 spirit(30 karma), which might actaully be pretty awesome.
It might be a better idea to sign up for an initiatory group as well, which will set you up for a discount in all your further initiations. With an Ordeal, this would cost 14 points in total. (5 for the group, and 8 for the discounted initiation). If you do this, you will almost certainly want to take your initiatory group as a group contact with BP, in case your GM decides that at loyalty 0, they don't really care to help you at all.
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (Udoshi @ Dec 1 2011, 12:26 AM) *
That is enough for a force 6 spirit(30 karma), which might actaully be pretty awesome.
QUOTE ('Street Magic p. 103')
An ally spirits base cost equals 8
Karma times its desired Force rating.
So it is enough for Force 4 (32 Karma).
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Nov 30 2011, 06:08 PM) *
So it is enough for Force 4 (32 Karma).


I put together a Force 3 Ally Spirit that is not too bad. Costs exactly 50 Karma.

Force: 3 (24 Karma)
Forms: Materialization, Tempter/Deceiver Spirit (Spirit Of Man) (0 Karma)
1. Human Woman of Inordinate Beauty (Name to be given)
Powers: (5 Karma)
Astral Form*
Banishing Resistance* (3 Services Refreshed every Sunrise and Sunset; Based upon Mage Edge at time of Creation)
Realistic Form*
Sapience*
Sense Link*
Influence*
Movement*
Search*
Weather Control
Skills: (15 Karma)
Assensing 3*
Astral Combat 3*
Dodge 3*
Perception 3*
Unarmed Combat 3*
Spellcasting 3
Ritual Spellcasting 3
Arcana 3
Spells: (6 Karma)
Control Emotions
Enabler


Is not all that bad. Goes to 53 Karma if you raise the Force to 4 (the Weather Control Power is Free at that point), and All Skills become a 4, instead of 3.
Udoshi
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Nov 30 2011, 06:08 PM) *
So it is enough for Force 4 (32 Karma).


I thought it was force x 5, force x 8 to update it after creating the ally.
Or does it jump to x 16?
Dakka Dakka
Each point costs 16 karma afterwards.
The Wrestling Troll
From Streetmagic p. 103

"Step 1: Choose Force—An ally spirit’s base cost equals 8
Karma times its desired Force rating."

Is it possible to not spend BP points and receive them as Karma after Chargen or are unspent BP points lost?
That way I could have a higher Ally Spirit smile.gif
Ryu
QUOTE (The Wrestling Troll @ Nov 30 2011, 09:18 PM) *
Well I made now a Dwarfen Mage. Didn't read all your comments about sticking with my hell cow wink.gif

I will post him anyway! I love to play characters that are "special" and have their own kind of style and background story instead of being a mindless killing machine with maxed stats without any fluff ...
But since I never made a mage before, I thought I ask you guys so that I get the most out of char while still have something special smile.gif

I think my mage now is the standard "cookie-cutter" build you were talking about hehe

You are now into binding spirits it seems, playing a non-minotaur without whip and no bioware.

== Attributes ==
[ Spoiler ]

Dont buy that last point of magic, its expensive. Willpower helps with drain but little else. Dont waste precious BP onon a 3 statline - that trick is for karmagen. Have a Body that permits you to wear armor.



== Active Skills ==
(Request: Remove those misleading "0" skill entries please.)
[ Spoiler ]

Binding has a pool of Magic 6 + Binding 4 + Binding Focus 5 (Air Spirits +2), or 15(17). Youll get tons of services out of force 4 spirits, but going higher than that will cause drain at 11 resistance dice.

You cant handle social situations, you cant climb or run, in combat you will be killed (You are not spending an IP on Dodge for having 4 dice TOTAL.) You will not hit combatants except under the best circumstances. Despite having Perception you will miss many details.


== Qualities ==
[ Spoiler ]

If this is about a real char, Id like to see the final list.

== Spells ==
[ Spoiler ]

Better bought with BP, but ok.

== Gear ==
Binding Focus (bonded) Rating 5

It will be a long time before you see a dividend. If you go for that expensive ally, this has to go. Im neither into Binding foci nor into allies, YMMV.


Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (Ryu @ Dec 1 2011, 12:21 PM) *
Willpower helps with drain but little else. Dont waste precious BP onon a 3 statline - that trick is for karmagen. Have a Body that permits you to wear armor.
It is a dwarf so at least on willpower it is not the last point. Willpower actually is one of the more powerful stats in SR. Not only does it increase the drain pool. it also gives you Stun boxes on the condition monitor. Additionally it functions as resistance against many spells, most offensive critter powers and some social skills.

QUOTE (Ryu @ Dec 1 2011, 12:21 PM) *
Binding has a pool of Magic 6 + Binding 4 + Binding Focus 5 (Air Spirits +2), or 15(17). Youll get tons of services out of force 4 spirits, but going higher than that will cause drain at 11 resistance dice.
It is still easier to get services on the summoning roll, which are transferred to bound spirits anyway.

QUOTE (Ryu @ Dec 1 2011, 12:21 PM) *
You cant handle social situations, you cant climb or run, in combat you will be killed (You are not spending an IP on Dodge for having 4 dice TOTAL.) You will not hit combatants except under the best circumstances. Despite having Perception you will miss many details.
At least in combat he is far from helpless. I'm pretty sure he will be invisible, so not much fire will be directed at him.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
Also, Please Remember that a Binding Focus (or Spellcastin, Summoning, etc) are specific to a type of spell/spirit. So, a Binding Focus 5 will only apply to one of your 5 spirit types. For example: Binding (Air Spirits) 5.

The ONLY Focus that covers all categories is the Power Focus.

And Dakka Dakka, never forget that it is MUCH harder to Bind than it is to Summon, since the Spirit rolls 2x Force to resist the Binding (and can spend Edge as well). The character may well actually NEED the Binding focus to have a chance of binding a higher level spirit, where the summoning is not too bad.

Also, it is not all that difficult to negate the Invisibility Spell by mundanes. A simple UWB Sensor will do so automatically (as it does not work against that type of Sensor), as will a Ultrasound Sensor.
Ryu
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Dec 1 2011, 03:55 PM) *
It is a dwarf so at least on willpower it is not the last point. Willpower actually is one of the more powerful stats in SR. Not only does it increase the drain pool. it also gives you Stun boxes on the condition monitor. Additionally it functions as resistance against many spells, most offensive critter powers and some social skills.

I`m aware, as in that case he would have had two hardmaxed attributes, which is IMO so inefficient that it does not have to be forbidden. That last point does not increase Stun boxes, and mages can handle counterspelling via skill+initiate bonus+a few dice from attribute.

QUOTE
It is still easier to get services on the summoning roll, which are transferred to bound spirits anyway.

Im all for a solid summoning pool; binding the same spirit over and over again is IMO inferior to "saving lucky summoning rolls for later". So I agree. Binding high-force spirits is a dangerous business. Thanks for the "one type only" reminder, that is indeed important.

QUOTE
At least in combat he is far from helpless. I'm pretty sure he will be invisible, so not much fire will be directed at him.

My current mage is on about that level of combat effectiveness - we are playing a low-power campaign - and I have to be careful. Ok, I forgot that the OP is generally an experienced SR player, it can work. But Dodge pool 4 can be ignored and firing SA Pistols with 8 (+smart 2) dice will rarely allow for a fast takedown. Overcasting stunball/bolt will usually be safer.
Modular Man
See, this build-as-is might lead to problems: You're heading straight into glass cannon territory. You character is likely screwed if he ever has to get out of his nich in the team: Almost no Dodge, not so much Perception, no social skills, not too much armor. I've been there, done that. Getting hit for nine of your ten physical damage boxes and knowing that, unlike yourself, the other guy will act two more times this round is nasty, really nasty. dead.gif
You'd have to stay away from combat as much as you can and play it smart. Maybe you're a faster learner than I was at that silly.gif
Spirits sure pack a punch and are very, very versatile. Be sure to make use of their capabilities other than plain close combat fighting.
Being a damn good caster and a badass summoner at the same time eats a lot of your BP. Bound spirits can aid your Spellcasting in times of need, so you could spare some points there...
As said before, "Combat Sense" may be better than "Armor": You're not a big "Shoot the mage first!"-beacon and dodging fire is always better than being hit. It's a Detection spell, though, so not in your special corner.
The Wrestling Troll
Hi everyone and thanks for all the great tips and ideas you gave me!
I tried my best to create a rather balanced mage that isn't specialized in either spellcasting or summoning. I tried to find a middleway so that I also could get some other skills and not be a one trick pony mage.

I know I switch character concepts a lot, but I still try to find the balance between something that is somehow unique to play and something that works for the group im in.

Here's my new Char, hope I did it right this time wink.gif
(Didn't buy a powerfocus ... that stuff is sooooo expensive sarcastic.gif )
@Ryu I've read your comment about only posting skills i've spend BP on, so I did!

[ Spoiler ]
Ryu
This is IMO the most solid build so far. And thanks for the clean skill list!

Some unfinished suggestions (youll change the build on us again anyway nyahnyah.gif):

- Shift one point from AGI to LOG, gain 2 more spells bought from BP.

- The first initiation costs 13 karma base. Get a group for 5 karma, choose an ordeal, and you spend 5 karma (group) plus 7 karma (initation). 12 karma.

- I would suggest rebranding the build: Satyr (25 BP, gain Saytr Legs, forego Running 1). As a Druid adapted to Greek Culture your Beast spirits could look like Minotaurs. Ask for a Touch-modified (-2 drain) Flamethrower spell with a Fire-Whip visual. As Satyr you can close in real fast, and Drain+1 is workable. Mechanically this uses Unarmed Combat to connect and Spellcasting for Damage.

- Shift to Assensing 2 / Summoning 5.

- It is a slightly weaker start, but I prefer to get some bioware straight on. Magic 5->4 allows for some basic Augmentations. Muscle Toner 2, Cybereyes, Trauma Dampener ?
Machiavelli
Cool, i think you can play this char.
The Wrestling Troll
What is the benefit of shifting one point from agi to logic? Since my drain stat is now Intuition. Only Arcana gets a boost from that from the mage skills. With agi I have a slight boost on Pistols and Infiltration.
I could also just skip Initiation at the beginning, since getting 12 karma later won't be a big deal and buy either 3 low skills +1 or buy 2 spells and a specialization?

The Idea with the greek culture seems pretty cool wink.gif
I thought now with the Egyptian mythology I would summon Sand Spirits (Earth) similar to a mummy. Or a guardian Spirit in Form of an eagle headed Warrior like you see on many hyroglyphs in the pyramids.

The Satyr wouldn't be such a bad Idea since it gives me +2 on gymnastics (even for doge with gymnastics) and that would benefit from the Muscle Toner.

And now for the cool "touch" firewhip, wouldn't it be wiser if I just cast a plain manabolt nyahnyah.gif ? Using Unarmed Combat to connect a spell can be a huge difficulty in some Situations. Specially if our enemys follow the rule "kill the mage first". Using that spell would be only viable in my opinion if I would use a possession based Tradition and let a bad ass spirit into my body boosting my physical stats to oblivion... That togehter with initiation "channeling" for still having control over the body.

Do you think decreasing Assensing is a good idea? Our GM said we're going to play the campaign "ghost cartels" (don't spoiler it PLEASE!! biggrin.gif haven't played it before) and he said that it would help a lot for investigating during the campaign.

I wanted to take Bioware to make a drain heavy character, since cerebral booster 3 gives a huge bonus to Log. But is it still a viable option to cripple my Magic Attribute like that? Sure I would get +2 Agi (+20BP or a lot of karma later) and I could have Cybereyes (Goggles also have almost the same benefits for vision enhancement and smartlink, imagelink etc.) and a Trauma Damper gives me the ability to shift 1 phys. damage to stun or negate 1 stun damage and also negate the negative modifiers, is it still worth losing 1 point of magic?

Ryu
QUOTE
What is the benefit of shifting one point from agi to logic? Since my drain stat is now Intuition. Only Arcana gets a boost from that from the mage skills. With agi I have a slight boost on Pistols and Infiltration.
I could also just skip Initiation at the beginning, since getting 12 karma later won't be a big deal and buy either 3 low skills +1 or buy 2 spells and a specialization?

Being allowed to have more spells after chargenbuy more spells during chargen. You have few Agi-based skills. Initiation is a top priority for Masking and Shielding and Centering and whatever you want in metamagics. As possession-based mage you should start with chanelling.

QUOTE
And now for the cool "touch" firewhip, wouldn't it be wiser if I just cast a plain manabolt nyahnyah.gif ? Using Unarmed Combat to connect a spell can be a huge difficulty in some Situations. Specially if our enemys follow the rule "kill the mage first". Using that spell would be only viable in my opinion if I would use a possession based Tradition and let a bad ass spirit into my body boosting my physical stats to oblivion... That togehter with initiation "channeling" for still having control over the body.

Yes, manabolt is better. You wanted something unique, and nobody in their right minds will allow you to improve manabolt. What do you want from Pistols skill?

QUOTE
Do you think decreasing Assensing is a good idea? Our GM said we're going to play the campaign "ghost cartels" (don't spoiler it PLEASE!! biggrin.gif haven't played it before) and he said that it would help a lot for investigating during the campaign.

Without spoilering you you have my blessing to powergame the hell out of this char. Assensing can be a great tool, but Force 6+ spirits definitly are. If you keep your tradition, being possessed will come with a nice Assensing rating.
Udoshi
QUOTE (Ryu @ Dec 2 2011, 04:31 AM) *
Being allowed to have more spells after chargen.


You know the limit on spells only applies DURING character creation, right?
The Wrestling Troll
Well then let's start an make a monster Powergame character biggrin.gif
So if you say i need to powergame like hell ... should I be a one trick pony? Your indication that I need something "overpowered" tells me I need a lot of bang for my bucks and I'm guessing "Spirits" when the campaign is called "ghost cartels"...

Using Knockout Spell (touch variant of stunbolt)
Type: M / Range: T / Damage: S / Duration: I / DV: (F/2)-3
That would me allow to cast a Force 12 stuntouch and I only would have to resist 3 drain ^^
Seems a bit ... overpowered? With enough nethits i could easily reach 20S damage on a target that resists with willpower ...

Is possession a good way to boost a magician? The only thing I could Imagine it being a good thing, is with the monofilament swinging mad cow that suddenly has 11 Body an 10+ Agi to slice and dice with the weapon focus nyahnyah.gif
Would I need Astral combat to attack a ghost that hasn't materialized when I use assensing to see him? The Weapon Focus is dual natured so in my opinion it should hit him anyway if I know where the spirits is. But I don't know the RAW :/

Should I stick with this char? Or rework something else like the uber-drain dwarf that flings Manabolts force 10 overcast without taking damage? I need to remember you, apparently I will be the only mage and magicly active character we have in our Group of 4 people ^^
The rest of us are:
- Streetsam
- Face
- Hacker/Street-Sam

For easy comparsion I will gather all the Char ideas I had before here.
Edit: I optimized the whole thing with spoiler tags so it's easier to read

Mad Cow version 1
[ Spoiler ]

Mad Cow Version 2
[ Spoiler ]

Dwarfen Mage
[ Spoiler ]

Orc Egyptian Mage --> Ryu's Favourite!
[ Spoiler ]
Ryu
QUOTE (Udoshi @ Dec 2 2011, 12:53 PM) *
You know the limit on spells only applies DURING character creation, right?

Yes, but I also like to have more spells, and there are many ways to spend karma for a mage.

Edit: Argh, I see it now. Thanks, Ill correct that.
Ryu
QUOTE (The Wrestling Troll @ Dec 2 2011, 12:55 PM) *
Well then let's start an make a monster Powergame character biggrin.gif
So if you say i need to powergame like hell ... should I be a one trick pony? Your indication that I need something "overpowered" tells me I need a lot of bang for my bucks and I'm guessing "Spirits" when the campaign is called "ghost cartels"...

Your current char is much better than the previous versions, and I consider one-trick-ponies to be weak chars - too unflexible.

QUOTE
Using Knockout Spell (touch variant of stunbolt)
Type: M / Range: T / Damage: S / Duration: I / DV: (F/2)-3
That would me allow to cast a Force 12 stuntouch and I only would have to resist 3 drain ^^
Seems a bit ... overpowered? With enough nethits i could easily reach 20S damage on a target that resists with willpower ...

Manabolt works fine.

QUOTE
Is possession a good way to boost a magician? The only thing I could Imagine it being a good thing, is with the monofilament swinging mad cow that suddenly has 11 Body an 10+ Agi to slice and dice with the weapon focus nyahnyah.gif
Would I need Astral combat to attack a ghost that hasn't materialized when I use assensing to see him? The Weapon Focus is dual natured so in my opinion it should hit him anyway if I know where the spirits is. But I don't know the RAW :/

Yes and no. Possession will allow you to give the samurai competition, while proper use of summoned spirits is still better IMO.
The Wrestling Troll
Possession is a no-go in that case.
Do you have any advice to optimize the build any further?
Specially for ghost cartell since you said i need to powergame nyahnyah.gif
The Wrestling Troll
I've tried to optimize the character for better "powergaming" reasons smile.gif

I raised the spellcasting and summoning skill both to 5 while reducing assensing a little bit and also infiltration to a minimum (got Invisibility spell tho)
Also made room for a Powerfocus rating 3 with restricted gear that helps me with spellcasting and summoning. Everything else stayed the same.

So guys ... what do you think of this build? seems pretty solid for me!

Orc Egyptian Mage V2
[ Spoiler ]
Ryu
I like were this is going.

Consider dropping that Power focus and getting augmented instead. What Im trying to sell next is dropping magic to an effective 4. No 15BP on ressources, no binding the focus, no restricted gear. 23 BP saved.

Spend those on: Muscle Aug/Toner 2, Trauma Dampener. 70k(14 BP, Magic-1, Essence 5.0). At the cost of 25 karma to re-raise magic later, you get Agi+2/Str+2/added damage resistance. 9 BP left.

With that in mind, look at your qualities:

QUOTE (modified list)
Data Shadow (Rating 1) (-5)
Evil Twin (-10)
Human-Looking (+5)
Low-Light Vision
Restricted Gear (1) (+5)
Magician (+15)
Mania/Phobia (Uncommon, Moderate) (Phobia HMHV-Virus (Infected)) (-10)
Mentor Spirit (Mountain) (+5)
Spirit Bane (Task Spirits) (-10)

Human-Looking is flavour you dont need (+5 BP). If you start without focus, 10 BP can buy Perceptive 2 instead (35 BP on positive qualities after loosing Restricted Gear), leaving 4 BP while boosting Perception and Assensing.

Shift to Spellcasting 6 / Summoning 4 (or the other way around).

Improve Climbing/Running 1 to Athletics 1. 2 BP left.

What now?

The Wrestling Troll
Only question I got now is why would I need more strenght and agi as a mage instead of a high casting dice pool and a higher magic attribute?

Can't follow you here on the benefits wink.gif
Ryu
QUOTE (The Wrestling Troll @ Dec 4 2011, 06:51 PM) *
Only question I got now is why would I need more strenght and agi as a mage instead of a high casting dice pool and a higher magic attribute?

Can't follow you here on the benefits wink.gif

The advantage for the magic part of your char is increased drain resistance. Agility and Strength help with secondary skills, like Firearms and Athletics.
Udoshi
I'm generally not a fan of pumping up strength unless you need it. I would say the power focus is way more important than 2 dice on agility(just get a smartlink, and save for rating 4 ware after creation). However, if you're burning restricted gear on it, you REALLY should try to get a rating 4 at start. If not, just go for rating 2.(i think you can get that without using restricted gear)

Really really really. its 29bp total to buy and bind a rating 4 power focus, including restricted gear. But it gives you a massive benefit that you aren't going to get during play - binding a power focus is rating x 8 karma(32 karma), and the base cost is 100k. Its one of the best deals you can do as a mage in BPgen, and something you will pretty much never be able to pick up in play. Either go for broke, or for the bare minimum you don't have to pay extra points on with resticted gear.

As for ware, its really, really good in some cases. Trauma dampers are excellent, as are cybereyes. If you are thinking about making a cybermage, another decent option is just getting a small amount, and PLANNING to pick up the good stuff once play begins, and you aren't limited to alpha and rating 2 agility boosters.
Ryu
QUOTE (Udoshi @ Dec 5 2011, 06:16 AM) *
I'm generally not a fan of pumping up strength unless you need it. I would say the power focus is way more important than 2 dice on agility(just get a smartlink, and save for rating 4 ware after creation). However, if you're burning restricted gear on it, you REALLY should try to get a rating 4 at start. If not, just go for rating 2.(i think you can get that without using restricted gear)

Really really really. its 29bp total to buy and bind a rating 4 power focus, including restricted gear. But it gives you a massive benefit that you aren't going to get during play - binding a power focus is rating x 8 karma(32 karma), and the base cost is 100k. Its one of the best deals you can do as a mage in BPgen, and something you will pretty much never be able to pick up in play. Either go for broke, or for the bare minimum you don't have to pay extra points on with resticted gear.

As for ware, its really, really good in some cases. Trauma dampers are excellent, as are cybereyes. If you are thinking about making a cybermage, another decent option is just getting a small amount, and PLANNING to pick up the good stuff once play begins, and you aren't limited to alpha and rating 2 agility boosters.

If Im not mistaken, a Smartlink is already figured into the dicepool. I play skill-heavy chars, and those benefit from Agility much. If you dont boost it, going with even less Agility (say 2) and higher Infiltration/no Pistols skill might be better. The peashooters need skill to kill, not really worth it for spellcasters.

This would pay for the power focus 4 upgrade easily. Due to background count I would not get Foci at rating 2. Having half or no effect most of the times sucks.

Now magic 4 + power focus 4 + Trauma Dampener is technically affordable and IMO good. Keep magic around 4 until you have all augmentations you want and low magic limitates your initiate degree.

It is a good deal. The binding is sweet (4BP:32karma), but diluted by spending 20 BP on ressources and 5 BP on qualities that you will not have to pay ingame. Look at the Enchanting rules, its quite possible to make your own foci. With the BP "gained" you can save say 25 karma for binding a self-made power focus ingame if you save more from the karma rewards you earn until you had time to make it. I would consider that an option.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Dumpshock Forums © 2001-2012