I would think most runners want to retire.
So they put up money or invest in the edge to survive long enough to retire.
Sometimes it's a cycle, you do one more job and need to burn off the savings in medical costs and new ware..
Full Version: Mages vs Street Sammie
QUOTE (Darquewing @ Dec 8 2011, 11:32 AM) 
I think it all depends on the sort of campaign you are running.
In a gritty street campaign, there probably won't be a lot of beta/delta grade cyber around. On the other hand, you probably aren't facing off against insect hives/dragons/high-end military/etc. In this style of game, paying the bills plus a little extra, and coming out alive are laudable goals.
But if a campaign has the PCs as the newest incarnation of Assets, Inc., then money probably isn't the reason those characters do what they do. Living through things is laudable, but still a tad secondary to fulfilling your goals. All the deltaware/magic/resonance in the sixth world may not guarantee you will succeed.
Both styles can be equally easy, or equally gritty. It all boils down to what game you want to run and what kinds of things your players want to do.
In a gritty street campaign, there probably won't be a lot of beta/delta grade cyber around. On the other hand, you probably aren't facing off against insect hives/dragons/high-end military/etc. In this style of game, paying the bills plus a little extra, and coming out alive are laudable goals.
But if a campaign has the PCs as the newest incarnation of Assets, Inc., then money probably isn't the reason those characters do what they do. Living through things is laudable, but still a tad secondary to fulfilling your goals. All the deltaware/magic/resonance in the sixth world may not guarantee you will succeed.
Both styles can be equally easy, or equally gritty. It all boils down to what game you want to run and what kinds of things your players want to do.
Very True. Only took us three years of our campaign to FIND the Delta Clinic and a sponsor willing to vouch for us. *Shrug*
You know that I would be the last person who wouldnīt agree that mages are (compared to other "classes" in the game) real karma-sinks, but i have to admit that it definitely pays out. You can save a lot of karma as a mundane char. by raising your attributes and skills with īware, but as a mage you initiate 2-3 times, learn quickening and a "raise attribute"-spell and *poof*, any wanted attribute can be raised to max with the expense of max. 8 karma. This is nothing any other class can achieve. You could simulate raised skills with the "analyze device"-spell, and so on. If you directly put the karma-costs side-to-side, mages have the best ratio between cost and benefit.
QUOTE (MortVent @ Dec 8 2011, 11:46 AM)
I would think most runners want to retire.
So they put up money or invest in the edge to survive long enough to retire.
Sometimes it's a cycle, you do one more job and need to burn off the savings in medical costs and new ware..
So they put up money or invest in the edge to survive long enough to retire.
Sometimes it's a cycle, you do one more job and need to burn off the savings in medical costs and new ware..
Also often very true.
I tend to look at Shadowrunning as a Profession. For most [of my] characters, it is not about the retirement, it is about the job itself. I put some away for a better lifestyle, if I am not there already (most are not, but it is one goal I work towards very diligently), while other money is socked away for upgrades, new equipment, and the "Have Fun" Fund. You cannot just become the best and then retire. You have to constatntly PROVE that you are the best. Whether you want to do so or not...
@Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
It depends.
The point is, if you got yourself a permanent high lifestyle (which probably means a middle lifestyle with some options) you tend to prefere (or I would) low risk runs. Because getting my house, car etc.pp torched is not worth those extra 80k. (Talking as a mage, because this is what we are having an argument about.)
(Getting higher is mostly not really something I want to do, because I would put a lot of effort in fleshing out a permanent lifestye. Hell, I have been drawing maps for "temporary once".)
It is not about running for lifestyle. Really doing that would mean close to no money.
You can plausible spend 100k or 50k after a run. You buy 2 month of lifestyle,probably lend the sam some money for a new implant and the rest is used to push on in a side quest you are having to get some stuff for some guy and after all there is just enough money for this alpha sleep regulator.
Now up it to 250k. The sam will still get implants, but the mage will probably stockpile. And after a few runs, the mage gets his permanent lifestyle, while the sam is still in depth to the mage. Now depending on your way of handeling things (how much time passes between the runs etc.) the mage gets richer and richer and the sam stays at the low end.
I am not saying that cash is bad. if you have players who do not need a lot of money (be it technomancers or even free spirits) those will end up in a complete different situation than characters with the need for a lot of cash (riggers and sams).
You can go against it with a cash for Karma rule, but here it is always the question at which exchange rate. In an early game getting 1 Karma for 5k is not that great. (2 Karma for agility +1 is not a bad deal)
But if you end up buying delta ware for half a million, we are talking 100 Karma right there.
@Machiavelli
You use different rules for quickening than the rest of the world. Thats why in your games it is that way. For most mages at most tables quickening some spell is not that great at all.
It depends.
The point is, if you got yourself a permanent high lifestyle (which probably means a middle lifestyle with some options) you tend to prefere (or I would) low risk runs. Because getting my house, car etc.pp torched is not worth those extra 80k. (Talking as a mage, because this is what we are having an argument about.)
(Getting higher is mostly not really something I want to do, because I would put a lot of effort in fleshing out a permanent lifestye. Hell, I have been drawing maps for "temporary once".)
It is not about running for lifestyle. Really doing that would mean close to no money.
You can plausible spend 100k or 50k after a run. You buy 2 month of lifestyle,probably lend the sam some money for a new implant and the rest is used to push on in a side quest you are having to get some stuff for some guy and after all there is just enough money for this alpha sleep regulator.
Now up it to 250k. The sam will still get implants, but the mage will probably stockpile. And after a few runs, the mage gets his permanent lifestyle, while the sam is still in depth to the mage. Now depending on your way of handeling things (how much time passes between the runs etc.) the mage gets richer and richer and the sam stays at the low end.
I am not saying that cash is bad. if you have players who do not need a lot of money (be it technomancers or even free spirits) those will end up in a complete different situation than characters with the need for a lot of cash (riggers and sams).
You can go against it with a cash for Karma rule, but here it is always the question at which exchange rate. In an early game getting 1 Karma for 5k is not that great. (2 Karma for agility +1 is not a bad deal)
But if you end up buying delta ware for half a million, we are talking 100 Karma right there.
@Machiavelli
You use different rules for quickening than the rest of the world. Thats why in your games it is that way. For most mages at most tables quickening some spell is not that great at all.
@ Irion: i do? I cannot see a mistake, sorry. The only thing that is different than at "the rest of the world", is that we are more generous with advanced masking and wards.
And background-count
@Machiavelli
Which is the point. If I am able to mask quickend spells from wards, their drawback just disappears.
Which is the point. If I am able to mask quickend spells from wards, their drawback just disappears.
QUOTE (MortVent @ Dec 8 2011, 02:46 PM)
I would think most runners want to retire.
So they put up money or invest in the edge to survive long enough to retire.
Sometimes it's a cycle, you do one more job and need to burn off the savings in medical costs and new ware..
Some 'Run for the money to retire. Some 'Run for the lifestyle. Some 'Run because it's the only thing they know how to do. Some 'Run because that's all they got left in "Life".
So they put up money or invest in the edge to survive long enough to retire.
Sometimes it's a cycle, you do one more job and need to burn off the savings in medical costs and new ware..
QUOTE (Irion @ Dec 8 2011, 08:33 PM)
@Machiavelli
Which is the point. If I am able to mask quickend spells from wards, their drawback just disappears.
Which is the point. If I am able to mask quickend spells from wards, their drawback just disappears.
With a sufficent rating in magic, you could simply press through the barrier or synchronize with it if you have assensed the creator. Usually i donīt get in much problems with wards and rating 6++ wards are not common.
One of my characters has a permanent cheap high lifestyle. He's a fixer because it's something he can do to remain a part of the the world, and not get bored in retirement. Plus, College don't pay for itself and his kid's gonna get there eventually. . .
Another runs because he literally knows nothing else. Amnesia's a bitch.
If the first received a million nuyen he'd invest and probably get a summer home somewhere.
If the second got it he'd probably fund a crazy attempt to figure out who he is.
The rest of my characters are mainly running for lifestyle because I like that motivation at the beginning. Since I tend to end up GMing, they never really get the chance to grow past that. One of my players runs because it's hard to hold down a real job when you're an elf mage who thinks he's a bear shifter. The only reason the team tolerated him was because magic is scarce, and they were running DOTA, a remarkably high magic campaign.
Another runs because he literally knows nothing else. Amnesia's a bitch.
If the first received a million nuyen he'd invest and probably get a summer home somewhere.
If the second got it he'd probably fund a crazy attempt to figure out who he is.
The rest of my characters are mainly running for lifestyle because I like that motivation at the beginning. Since I tend to end up GMing, they never really get the chance to grow past that. One of my players runs because it's hard to hold down a real job when you're an elf mage who thinks he's a bear shifter. The only reason the team tolerated him was because magic is scarce, and they were running DOTA, a remarkably high magic campaign.
@Machiavelli
Find the mage can be quite difficult. Pressing through alarms security. So your way, handwaves all those problems. Thats a hell of an advantage.
Find the mage can be quite difficult. Pressing through alarms security. So your way, handwaves all those problems. Thats a hell of an advantage.
We donīt handwave pressing through. We just handle extended masking more in a 3rd Version-version. This ainīt gamebreaking, but having an advanced metatechnique SHOULD be an advantage. The most important thing with quickened spells is, that they donīt get broken...because you would lose the karma for binding them. So i better press through and alarm the creator that losing 6+ karma. ^^
@Machiavelli
1. Depends on how you define game breaking.
2. I did not even say that. It just gives a mage an option he DOES not have in other groups.
3. This option makes quickening about 2 to 5 times a better choice. (If I would value metatechniques from 1 to 10, ten beeing the best, at a normal table quickening would be around 2-4, at your table it would be a 4(10). Get it, or you are a moron(if you have extended masking))
1. Depends on how you define game breaking.
2. I did not even say that. It just gives a mage an option he DOES not have in other groups.
3. This option makes quickening about 2 to 5 times a better choice. (If I would value metatechniques from 1 to 10, ten beeing the best, at a normal table quickening would be around 2-4, at your table it would be a 4(10). Get it, or you are a moron(if you have extended masking))
The conversation evolved a lot while I wasn't present but I'll try to steer back to what I'd said before. Unless you runners are adrenaline junkies or looking for something other than money (revenge, whatever), most of them will retire after a big heist, that's why I propose that the GM should offer other payments for the players besides money. If you are working for a Johnson who has a Delat Clinic in its pocket, he might offer a deltaware instead of money, specially if it's easier for him hide the evidences of the surgery than the evidences of money being trasnfered (even payment with credsticks, the money came from some account somewhere).
@Irion:
1) Like every body else does? Making the game less fun for the others? Cataclysmic change of game mechanics? Given in this case? I donīt hink so. Our masking is just like it was before. It wasnīt game-breaking before, it ainīt game breaking now. In the RAW-version you just need more preparation. We play hard and fast. If you are into a more sneaky kind of game, i totally agree with you that it is a big advantage.
2) correct. Cool, hm?
3) Quickening is always a good option. Even if we would play "normal", i would rate it much better than 4 out of 10. Extended masking prevents shadowing, lets enemies underestimate you until it is too late and nobody picks your foci while you are stunned/sleeping. Foci are expensive. ^^
1) Like every body else does? Making the game less fun for the others? Cataclysmic change of game mechanics? Given in this case? I donīt hink so. Our masking is just like it was before. It wasnīt game-breaking before, it ainīt game breaking now. In the RAW-version you just need more preparation. We play hard and fast. If you are into a more sneaky kind of game, i totally agree with you that it is a big advantage.
2) correct. Cool, hm?
3) Quickening is always a good option. Even if we would play "normal", i would rate it much better than 4 out of 10. Extended masking prevents shadowing, lets enemies underestimate you until it is too late and nobody picks your foci while you are stunned/sleeping. Foci are expensive. ^^
I only have a minute before work but I usually don't buy a permanent lifestyle until I'm ready to retire the character, on the "Heat" theory, "Never have anything in your life you can't walk away from in 30 seconds."
The other thing is I tend to be pretty loyal to a character (playing one character for an extended period of time rather than switching out, the latter being the norm for my group), so I try to come up with motivations besides immediate retirement. A character who has a long term goal that will keep them in the game, or who is just too much of an adrenaline junkie to quit, may keep working in the shadows long after they've saved up enough money for the nice house with the picket fence.
The other thing is I tend to be pretty loyal to a character (playing one character for an extended period of time rather than switching out, the latter being the norm for my group), so I try to come up with motivations besides immediate retirement. A character who has a long term goal that will keep them in the game, or who is just too much of an adrenaline junkie to quit, may keep working in the shadows long after they've saved up enough money for the nice house with the picket fence.
QUOTE
3) Quickening is always a good option. Even if we would play "normal", i would rate it much better than 4 out of 10. Extended masking prevents shadowing, lets enemies underestimate you until it is too late and nobody picks your foci while you are stunned/sleeping. Foci are expensive. ^^
Depends on how common Wards are. Everywhere you need to go, definitly 2 or even worse.
Actually they are quite common, but our team is called fightclub....we plan 3 hours how to get in unseen and then it nevertheless ends in a carnage-firefight.
QUOTE (Machiavelli @ Dec 8 2011, 03:06 PM)
With a sufficent rating in magic, you could simply press through the barrier or synchronize with it if you have assensed the creator. Usually i donīt get in much problems with wards and rating 6++ wards are not common.
If you press through the creator(s) are alerted, which depending on the location and purpose of the ward is probably going to draw an astral patrol to check things out and/or a call to on site security forces. Assensing the creator takes a lot of leg work and patience in advance and won't be possible a lot of the time.
Your world is your world, but the most likely outcome in a competitive security landscape is for cheap, low force wards to give warning at low security locations (hotels, club meeting rooms) and for high power reflecting wards on high security locations. (Incidentally, reflecting wards are the only reason to take reflecting metamagic unless you houserule it, and even then it doesn't make sense for anyone but a dedicated security magician wanting to make the big bucks safely and boringly.) You can get around this (shattershield), but not quickly AND quietly.
I do not play with you. So I can't say how usefull this change is for mages in your games. It might not even matter.
I am just saying that in the games I know and the way i would run things, it makes quickening much, much, much more effective and would probably break the game.
It is like a bag of holding or a teleport spell. In some games, it would not matter at all. But for other people it would totally break the game. Depends I say.
I am just saying that in the games I know and the way i would run things, it makes quickening much, much, much more effective and would probably break the game.
It is like a bag of holding or a teleport spell. In some games, it would not matter at all. But for other people it would totally break the game. Depends I say.
I would agree. Depends.
I can't see how extended masking ISN"T already bloody damn useful. Without it ANY spell or active foci you have on you acts as a big "LOOK AT ME" sign on the astral.
Infiltrating with things like physical mask, the technique is absolutely vital. I can't agree with any of Machiavelli's assertions that his changes are 'minor' and not game-breaking as it completely eliminates the biggest drawbacks to quickening things. The karma investiture and such for quickening is nowhere near high enough compared to the price people pay to actually raise or buy up attributes with essence.
I already get enough nasty looks from my GM for using my ALLY spirit with Innate spell 'increase wilpower' and 'increase reflexes' (Innate spell is a power... no sustaining penalty... per RAW spirit can maintain 1 power per point of force without penalty).
Infiltrating with things like physical mask, the technique is absolutely vital. I can't agree with any of Machiavelli's assertions that his changes are 'minor' and not game-breaking as it completely eliminates the biggest drawbacks to quickening things. The karma investiture and such for quickening is nowhere near high enough compared to the price people pay to actually raise or buy up attributes with essence.
I already get enough nasty looks from my GM for using my ALLY spirit with Innate spell 'increase wilpower' and 'increase reflexes' (Innate spell is a power... no sustaining penalty... per RAW spirit can maintain 1 power per point of force without penalty).
@Falconer
Well, the change is not gamebreaking if you do not care about wards to begin with.
You might argue, that such a game is already broken, and you might be correct about that.
Well, the change is not gamebreaking if you do not care about wards to begin with.
You might argue, that such a game is already broken, and you might be correct about that.
It all comes down to the character's motivation. With certain motivations no amount of money will ever satisfy them; "...Hey you sent us here and my brother got eaten by vampires. You CAN'T make that up to me!!!"
I have one player who blows 60-75% of every payoff on drugs & women of questionable repute. Sometimes he remembers to buy new ammo and gear before a run and his Cram-NovaCoke-Kamikaze Speedball induced heart attack forced him to buy some synthcardium once. He is an ex merc now running to support his habit. Hilarious, dangerous, and terrifying to be around but he is true to his concept.
Other players include an assassin who maintains a low lifestyle and a massive shadow account, an adrenaline junkie rich boy who runs for the thrills, a sociapathic mage who specializes in shapechange and mind rape, and a teenaged courier/hacker new to the shadows. None of them HAVE to run but none of them can stop either. It is what they do.
Now the world at large prefers that the runners stay hungry. After all the corps are not in the business of making runners rich, they are in the business of using runners to screw over their rivals.
What good is a runner that won't run?
I have one player who blows 60-75% of every payoff on drugs & women of questionable repute. Sometimes he remembers to buy new ammo and gear before a run and his Cram-NovaCoke-Kamikaze Speedball induced heart attack forced him to buy some synthcardium once. He is an ex merc now running to support his habit. Hilarious, dangerous, and terrifying to be around but he is true to his concept.
Other players include an assassin who maintains a low lifestyle and a massive shadow account, an adrenaline junkie rich boy who runs for the thrills, a sociapathic mage who specializes in shapechange and mind rape, and a teenaged courier/hacker new to the shadows. None of them HAVE to run but none of them can stop either. It is what they do.
Now the world at large prefers that the runners stay hungry. After all the corps are not in the business of making runners rich, they are in the business of using runners to screw over their rivals.
What good is a runner that won't run?
I think runners should have reasons to run beyond money. And they should have complications to deal with, beyond getting enough money, to be able to retire, even if they want to. What's the point of settling down in the Caribbean in a beachside villa, if you still have old enemies out for your blood, old friends you owe favors to, and so on?
But I also think, if you make a big haul, and your character could conceivably stop running, then sometimes you should have them do so. And start a new character. It adds to the verisimilitude of the game to me, that some characters actually can retire, and have their happy (or at least bittersweet) ending. Maybe they're the rare exception, but they should still be out there.
But I also think, if you make a big haul, and your character could conceivably stop running, then sometimes you should have them do so. And start a new character. It adds to the verisimilitude of the game to me, that some characters actually can retire, and have their happy (or at least bittersweet) ending. Maybe they're the rare exception, but they should still be out there.
QUOTE (Jet @ Dec 11 2011, 07:02 PM)
It all comes down to the character's motivation. With certain motivations no amount of money will ever satisfy them; "...Hey you sent us here and my brother got eaten by vampires. You CAN'T make that up to me!!!"
I have one player who blows 60-75% of every payoff on drugs & women of questionable repute. Sometimes he remembers to buy new ammo and gear before a run and his Cram-NovaCoke-Kamikaze Speedball induced heart attack forced him to buy some synthcardium once. He is an ex merc now running to support his habit. Hilarious, dangerous, and terrifying to be around but he is true to his concept.
Other players include an assassin who maintains a low lifestyle and a massive shadow account, an adrenaline junkie rich boy who runs for the thrills, a sociapathic mage who specializes in shapechange and mind rape, and a teenaged courier/hacker new to the shadows. None of them HAVE to run but none of them can stop either. It is what they do.
Now the world at large prefers that the runners stay hungry. After all the corps are not in the business of making runners rich, they are in the business of using runners to screw over their rivals.
What good is a runner that won't run?
I have one player who blows 60-75% of every payoff on drugs & women of questionable repute. Sometimes he remembers to buy new ammo and gear before a run and his Cram-NovaCoke-Kamikaze Speedball induced heart attack forced him to buy some synthcardium once. He is an ex merc now running to support his habit. Hilarious, dangerous, and terrifying to be around but he is true to his concept.
Other players include an assassin who maintains a low lifestyle and a massive shadow account, an adrenaline junkie rich boy who runs for the thrills, a sociapathic mage who specializes in shapechange and mind rape, and a teenaged courier/hacker new to the shadows. None of them HAVE to run but none of them can stop either. It is what they do.
Now the world at large prefers that the runners stay hungry. After all the corps are not in the business of making runners rich, they are in the business of using runners to screw over their rivals.
What good is a runner that won't run?
Welcome back to the Forums Jet... The gang has been missing you on Fridays and Sundays. Hope to see you there after the new year.
Why can't it be both, Jet? 
I know most of my characters are written so they can't retire. One doesn't know how else to live, another is trying to die, and the third can't get out at all. I'll let you figure out which is which.
I know most of my characters are written so they can't retire. One doesn't know how else to live, another is trying to die, and the third can't get out at all. I'll let you figure out which is which.
QUOTE (CanRay @ Dec 11 2011, 09:04 PM)
Why can't it be both, Jet?
I know most of my characters are written so they can't retire. One doesn't know how else to live, another is trying to die, and the third can't get out at all. I'll let you figure out which is which.
I know most of my characters are written so they can't retire. One doesn't know how else to live, another is trying to die, and the third can't get out at all. I'll let you figure out which is which.
Jet's Game is actually very fun. Though a Lot more Dhoom Machale (You would understand if you have seen the Movie Dhoom2 - Our term for over the top Pink Mohawk) that I usually play. I will leave it to you to figure out which of the characters he describes is mine.
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