Erebus
Apr 6 2004, 07:04 PM
After following much of the idiot's guide to the matrix thread, and re-reading the bit on validated accounts in the Matrix books, why on earth would anyone attempt (or want )to do overwatch without a "validated" security account?
It seems to me that the only time you would run without "validated" accounts is for the recon runs when you want to go get one, or if you only need to do something relatively straight forward in the system, and don't plan on being there that long.
Validated accounts allow deckers to perform system operations without having to make system tests.... which means no buildup of security tallys, unless of course the action your doing isn't allowed via that type of account.
Never underestimate the power of an illegally "Validated" Security-Level account.... And if you want to go for the Gold and show what your really made of, snag a Super-User level one instead....
Moon-Hawk
Apr 6 2004, 07:13 PM
Yep, validating is pretty keen. If you're popping in and out real quick it's usually not worth the bother, but any extended amount of time it's definitely worth a try. There is, maybe, a bit of ambiguity about what a security level passcode allows, so if a GM is being troubled by their players doing this this they can try to push them toward the superuser account, but being a valid icon really helps combat on those red hosts.
It's basically one really hard test to replace a lot of easier ones. Whenever I design a host, control is almost always one of the better subsystem ratings.
p.s. I apologize for my grossly inarticulate thoughts, it's almost time to go home.
Shockwave_IIc
Apr 6 2004, 07:19 PM
The reason why it isn't done so often is because frequently "Control" is the highest sub system on a host and Validating Add's 2 the that figure and Superuser adds 6.
Gorath
Apr 6 2004, 09:46 PM
Whats the best starting overwatch decker?
Skills:
Computer 6
Utilities:
Spoof 6 (if you did not get a account that gives you access to all cameras, doors, etc.)
Deception 6
Validate 6 [Sneak 6 option] (validate an account on recon, return with your team an account)
Remote Control X (use some drones in captains chair mode...)
Deck:
MPCP-8 Deck (if allowed, else a MPCP-6)
Masking 6
Anything else that would improve overwatch?
spoof. for overwatch, you'll be hitting the slave subsystem a lot.
Digital Heroin
Apr 6 2004, 11:26 PM
Battletac Matrix Link is only for sharing info with other deckers, neh?
stupid, but true. personally, i don't see why the decker--drawing feeds from multiple security cameras--can't use it to shoot orders and warnings to his meat teammates, but them's the rules.
Kanada Ten
Apr 6 2004, 11:55 PM
| QUOTE |
| ...i don't see why the decker--drawing feeds from multiple security cameras--can't use it to shoot orders and warnings to his meat teammates, but them's the rules. |
Wouldn't Commlink allow that provided the teammate[s] had a phone?
Gorath
Apr 7 2004, 07:33 AM
Oh my god, its true:
| QUOTE (Matrix @ p. 72, last paragraph) |
| ... A character in the matrix may not give a bonus to characters not in the Matrix through the BattleTac link, and vice versa. |
I never read the description carefully because i asumed it could work together with all other BattleTac units. So this is a total useless tool for a single decker.
So Small Unit Tactics is crap for a decker. I am asking me, if the decker could feed some BattleTac Master unit channels with video data to give someone outside of the Matrix a bonus to his Small Unit Tactics check for the others not in the Matrix...
Comlink gives you the possibility to give those orders and infos but you could not use BattleTac for your Small Unit Skill. I am asking me, if a decker would use Small Unit Tactics via Comlink and had all security cameras spoofed, is in contact with his allies via Comlink, what is the TN for his Small Unit Tactics test?
Voran
Apr 7 2004, 08:42 AM
I think in a wierd way it might be related to different time frames in matrix vs real combat settings. It may be difficult to sync them up. Then again, I dunno
It may be one of those random rules.
the TN would be 6. -2 if you've got a BattleTac cyberlink.
Namergon
Apr 7 2004, 12:28 PM
| QUOTE (Voran) |
| I think in a wierd way it might be related to different time frames in matrix vs real combat settings. |
There's no such thing, at least during Combat (use of Combat Turns of 3 sec.).
Dashifen
Apr 7 2004, 01:15 PM
| QUOTE (Gorath @ Apr 7 2004, 02:33 AM) |
Oh my god, its true:
| QUOTE (Matrix @ p. 72, last paragraph) | | ... A character in the matrix may not give a bonus to characters not in the Matrix through the BattleTac link, and vice versa. |
I never read the description carefully because i asumed it could work together with all other BattleTac units. So this is a total useless tool for a single decker.
|
SUT can come in handy for a decker that "runs" with frames or agents, however, if they have the battle tac utility. Then, the programs can send and receive tactical information and the decker/program team can receive the bonuses.
As for the original poster's comment on Validate: yes, validate can destroy your GMs day. That's why I always make Control the highest subsystem on my hosts. Further, I force the player to tell me what type of account he wants to access and then determine which slaves he can access. For example, if they want to see floorplans, they might have to create a janitor's account, but that would not give them access to door locks, alarms, pressure plates, cameras, etc. However, if they created a security account like a door man or lobby security, then they would have some cameras and the front lobby area locks under their control but not the rest of the building. So on and so forth. I made this ruling because of the * that appears after some of the operations listed in the ones a validated account can use. The * later on says that not all of the utilities listed are available to all validated accounts. The moment that your decker goes outside of his validated operations, she/he starts to generate a tally and can be thwacked with IC. Plus, and this is my interpretation, someone who starts to generate a tally but has a legitimate icon on the host would probably be odd enough to start to draw the attention of security deckers, especially if passive alert is hit.
Gorath
Apr 7 2004, 10:57 PM
But IF a decker can make one account, he can jack out. Come back without tally and get other accounts easy.
theoretically, yes. however, i never allow this--if a decker causes enough of a ruckus to activate IC, then the account will be shut down in (successes)d6 hours, rather than days. activating IC is something that a security decker will investigate--maybe not immediately, but at some point during the day. it's just common sense.
Gorath
Apr 8 2004, 08:17 AM
of course, if a decker starts to get a tally with his account it will get check very soon. But if you just go in to validate an norma caaount. You get a tally before you got the account. Then you log in with this account and don't have a tally. Now you can try to get a harder (security or superuser) account. So this starting account may be detected soon. BUt perhaps you have enough time to use the su-account for overwatch.
hm. these security tally rules get dumber every time i look at them. each character that logs onto a host supposedly generates a seperate security tally, and IC activated by one decker's sec tal generally only attacks that decker (Matrix p110). however, any decker that logs onto a host after another decker has run up any amount of security tally automatically starts off with a security tally equal to the first decker's (SR3 p212).
what kind of insane gabbldygook is that? if A and B are decking a host at the same time, any sec tal A generates doesn't apply to B. but if C logs on while A and B are doing their thang, he gets gangraped by fresh copies of any IC that A and B activated--even though the only thing he's done is log on!
Shockwave_IIc
Apr 8 2004, 09:37 AM
Starting to make more sense, by saying the very decker has it's own tally, but can get effected by Ic that other deckers activate.
Example: Noob decker N and Hot shot Decker H are both in a system, N starts doing their thing and makes a ruckus, activating IC left right and center, H now has to tread even more carefully cos there's IC looking for anomlies any in fact.
Just a thought.
nope. IC activated by N doesn't bother H unless H decides to attack said IC, or otherwise unmask his presence to it. i suppose you could have the IC roll to notice H's icon, but that means rolling against H's Masking plus Sleaze. most IC will have a hard time detecting N, much less H.
Shockwave_IIc
Apr 8 2004, 09:57 AM
Actually i was thinking more about the effcets of Probe, my bad should of said that. But i know N activating IC doesn't bother H, it just seems like H should have to be a little more carefull.
same problem--Probe won't affect H unless it's detected him, which is improbable at best.
i agree--H should have to be a little more careful. but, by the rules, he doesn't have to be. unless, of course, he's just logging on, in which case he'll be mobbed by god knows how many pieces of IC.
Dashifen
Apr 8 2004, 01:35 PM
I generally ignore that rule (the one about new deckers getting the same tally as the system) because of the rule in Matrix that says that each decker gets their own tally. I've always concidered that the Matrix rule supercedes the SR3 rule because they don't make sense at the same time.
However, the exception -- there's always one -- is system alerts. If the host is on Passive alert because of Stoopid Newbie Decker A and Whiz-Bang Decker B logs on, the TNs are still +2 for B even though B doesn't have a tally (IMNSOHO).
Moon-Hawk
Apr 8 2004, 07:29 PM
I agree. One decker's tally has no effect on the other's, but universal things like alert status and security deckers still make it a bad day for the second decker.
Eyeless Blond
Apr 8 2004, 09:09 PM
| QUOTE (Gorath) |
[...]
Validate 6 [Stealth 6 option] (validate an account on recon, return with your team an account)
[...] |
Er, Validate 6 with Stealth 6 costs 1.296 MILLION nuyen. No way does a starting character have that.
Personally I don't see the problem with using Validate. That's always a damn hard test to hit, and your average starting decker is almost never going to be able to validate an account on anything Orange-hard or worse. At least that's my understanding, although I've never played a decker. Limits on anything but a superuser account will usually keep your decker from being too Matrix-happy anyway. There are lots of other tricks at your disposal, like chokepoints and virtual hosts, that Validate can't get you past as well.
Besides, if someone plonked down over one and a quarter million
for a program they ought to at least be able to enjoy it. You know how many increases to Int and your Hacking Pool you can get for less than that?
Gorath
Apr 9 2004, 10:26 AM
Why, did i calcualte wrong? It has a 12 for size, and 6 for price. ==> 12^2*200=144*200=28800
Please check in your Matrix Sourcebook for adding options to programs too. What is the maximum rating a starting option can have? NO? 6? Any?
i believe option rating is limited by program rating, but you'll have to wait twenty minutes for me to get back to my books before i can tell you for sure. i'm also pretty sure that options are factored in when calculating price.
Gorath
Apr 9 2004, 12:30 PM
I thought rating increases only the size, but not the general price. Maybe i am wrong. Must check for my self too when i am back home...
toturi
Apr 9 2004, 01:26 PM
| QUOTE (Gorath) |
| I thought rating increases only the size, but not the general prize. Maybe i am wrong. Must check for my self too when i am back home... |
price = the cost of something
prize = something you win
Gorath
Apr 9 2004, 05:02 PM
You misquoted me
Moon-Hawk
Apr 9 2004, 06:21 PM
Program options are in Matrix pg 82 on
Programming options affect the rating of a program, and therefore its' size.
Options do NOT count for determining the maximum rating that can be programmed.
Options to NOT count for determining the target number of the programming text.
Options and cost:
The options DO count for determining the size, and the cost is the size in Mp multiplied by the cost multiplier. The options do NOT count for determining the cost multiplier.
For example
Rating 6 programs cost size x 200
Rating 10 programs cost size x 1000
Attack 6M is 108Mp, with a multiplier of 200, so it costs 21600
Attack 6M (stealth -4) has a size of 300Mp, but the price is 60,000
(300 x 200) Not 300000
(300 x 1000)
(this example is found on pg 83)
I hope this clears things up.
hobgoblin
Apr 9 2004, 06:32 PM
validate should use sneak, not stealth, stealth is for when you nail some ice, sneak is to make it harder for the system to spot your actions.
allso, i think goraths price calculation is more correct as options dont modify the cost of the utility.
and the max rating for a option is equal to the rating of the util.
personaly i think the design rating and size should be used to calculate price. as a programs price is most of the time based on its complexity to code...
Gorath
Apr 9 2004, 09:17 PM
Okay, so my calcs were right. Yes, we need the sneak, not the stealth option. And sneak 6 just increases DF by 3.
er... no. sneak-6 increases DF by 6, and increases the effective rating (for size only) by 12. a validate-6 (sneak-6) would be 1296 Mp (18^2*4), cost 259,200:yen:, and have a programming TN of 6.
hobgoblin
Apr 10 2004, 01:59 AM
gah, my bad. i read the design rating modifier to only have effect on design size, not the size of the finished product. mfb is correct...
allso, i missed thesmall section in matrix about the price of a utility, therefor my comment in the old post about how i would like it to work is redundant as that is exactly how it works
thats a insanely sized utility btw, only black hammer comes that high without useing options i think...
grr, i need a new matrix book. i spend more time holding it together then i do reading it...
mfb
Apr 10 2004, 03:31 AM
indeed.
Gorath
Apr 10 2004, 02:57 PM
Thats even better... But also priced higher
Now a starting decker buys his deck for ~250 k
and also his Validate 6 (sneak-6) at ~260 k
mfb
Apr 10 2004, 10:56 PM
and still has 500K left over for his datajack!
Gorath
Apr 10 2004, 11:00 PM
Or other programs like Deception 6 (perhaps with sneak-6 option)...
mfb
Apr 10 2004, 11:02 PM
and Sleaze.
Eyeless Blond
Apr 10 2004, 11:14 PM
And Analyze, Browse, and a programming suite, which you still need, Evaluate and Decrypt, which aren't really helped by having a valid account, and Attacks and Medics and Shields and crap to keep you alive long enough to *use* that Validate program.... In fact, all this saves you from having to buy is Read/Write (which is dirt-cheap) and Spoof, maybe Crash and Swerve if you're into those things.
mfb
Apr 10 2004, 11:19 PM
this is why i tend to prefer otaku.
Shockwave_IIc
Apr 11 2004, 04:55 AM
Mmmmm, Otaku.... the voices...
Gorath
Apr 11 2004, 01:47 PM
I don't like Otuka. Maybe they are good deckers, but i don't want to play a twelve year old guy...
mfb
Apr 11 2004, 02:01 PM
don't have to. otaku don't start fading until 21.
and, honestly? otaku are suck deckers. they're really good at not being detected when they start out, and they can dominate Matrix combat, but for the actual hacking of systems, you're better off with a decker.
hobgoblin
Apr 11 2004, 02:21 PM
dont otaku need to write theyre own attack utilitys (or whatever they call them) or use improvised attacks?
Shockwave_IIc
Apr 11 2004, 02:23 PM
Complex Forms, yes they need them, but they can use improvised attacks if they want (which they are better at then deckers).
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