Point. *thinks* well, it's not like the other stats aren't just as important--Intuition is still part of Matrix initiative, so you can't afford to skimp there either, and Willpower is part of the damage resistance pool, so likewise there, and Charisma sets how many sprites you can have registered, as well as your Biofeedback Filter, so dumping there is also not a good idea. I guess a better way to put it is that I gave incentive to actually play a logic stream techno, instead of using Logic as a dump stat--I tried to make it as important as the others. (Besides, System, while based on Logic, is not the same as Logic; a TM can boost his System rating in three ways under this house rule: raise Resonance, raise Logic, buy the System-boosting echo, which seems to me to be a good range of options)

Besides, with Logic setting the max number of CFs you started with before instituting this house rule, one could ask the same question, but the PC TM is a technoshaman (Charisma stream) and my NPC TMs are Dronomancers, E-Scapists, Info-Savants, and Cyberadepts--all non-Logic streams, even when I built them having to boost Logic as high as possible so they'd be able to function.

Heh. I guess the biggest factor is that I warned my players before we started that I disliked rampant powergaming, having endured one campaign with an unrepentant powergamer, and I knew how much of a pain it was when one person hogged the spotlight. So, if they wanted to powergame, be my guest--but I know all the tricks as a result and have little patience when someone tries to pull the same.

This is precisely why my houserule keeps CF ratings intact, but gives you them at max rating for 3bp - at start only(You still need to buy them up later). Flat cost for CFs without making resonance a god-stat.


Agreed 100%. TM's shold totally have the option of [Stream Attribute]+Skill instead of Logic+Skill under your houserule. Stream attribute should, you know, do something.

Ah, I must have misunderstood from before. But, after thinking it over a bit, I think I'll keep it this way and see how it works for the time being. I still think raising individual complex forms at cost of new rating is way too expensive.



Hmm... I'll think it over. It certainly does fit with the technoshaman "asking computers nicely" vs. the "very good with code" viewpoint of the cyberadepts, but I'm a little leery of allowing that degree of rules shifting and potentially opening the door to a great deal of min-maxing.

Emphasis mine
You did see the part where I reduced the cost to a more reasonable cost in karma as well, didn't you?

Yeah, god forbid a player only have 4 prime attributes, instead of 5. I never understood the need to 'punish' a dump stat in SR; it'll catch up with them.

*checks* *facepalm*
Okay, time to do some thinking.

Yeah, it is slightly ridiculous.

Faces need Charisma, and occasionally Willpower for opposed tests. Thats 1-2.
Fighters need Agility to hit, Reaction to not be hit, Body to take hits, and sometimes Willpower to deal with stun damage. Thats 3.
Mages need Willpower, Magic and one other Stat depending on tradition. That's 3.
Hackers don't even NEED attributes.
And then Technomancers go ahead and need all 5 mental stats AND a special stat for 6 total.

Stephen Hawking, Master Hacker!

So, did some thinking here, and math.

Taking Harisha (my NPC TM mentioned above) as a test case, I ran a little cost-ratio analysis.

Harisha has Charisma 3 (he's a little on the quieter side, but he's quite capable of having the strength of personality to get up in the face of a bigot), Intuition 4 (because when you're a changeling monkey-boy on the streets of Seattle, you need situational awareness and guile to survive--even before he Emerged), Logic 4 (being able to out-think thugs is a good idea when you can't outfight them) and Willpower 4 (Stubborn cuss), with Resonance 4 and 3 in all his physical attributes. Hardly min-maxed, but a good, solid NPC. That gives him 4 in each of Response, System and Firewall, and a Signal of 3 with this ruleset. With a Software of 4, he has 12 Complex Forms at 4 (listed upthread), plus Biofeedback Filter at 3 for a total of 13 CFs.

Okay, now for him to raise those CFs (minus Biofeedback) to rating 5.

By my ruleset, it'll cost 55 karma--25 for Resonance 5, 30 for Resonance 6, and then all CFs automatically bump up in rating to 5, as do System, Response and Firewall, as they're also partially dependent on Resonance. That's alot for 55 karma--close to making one Stat To Rule Them All, especially as more Complex forms are purchased, the relative savings increase. Then again, it does help defray the issue of having too many "prime attributes" that people were referencing above. Hmmm... In another 65 karma, plus associated submersion costs, Resonance gets to 8, meaning that he'll have the equal of the Rating 6 Commlink and programs that a hacker can get at or soon after CharGen--for a total cost of at least 138 karma, and not having spent any karma on other CFs, attributes, skills, or qualities (however, being able to thread CFs up to rating 12 should not and will not be discounted, but it's still difficult and dangerous).

By Udoshi's ruleset, it'll cost 49 karma--25 for Resonance 5, then another 24 for the 2 karma per rating point per Complex Form to get all 12 CFs to rating 5. But the other Matrix attributes won't raise until Resonance is boosted again (or until the appropriate stat is boosted, or the appropriate echo is purchased), which will cost a minimum of 25-30 more karma (~15 for the echo). To get the equal of the rating 6 commlink and programs, it's the 138 minimum karma from above, plus another 48 karma to raise the 12 CFs to rating 6--a total of 186 karma. That's alot.

Okay, I've got these numbers now. They tell me that, yes, my proposed version of the houserules will be about 25-30% more efficient than Udoshi's when it comes to karma expenditure--which means that next, I need to determine if that's a bad thing for my table. And, while my instinct says "no", I think I need to run it by my players and lay it out for them like this.

I'm kind of of the mind that, that you should just kind of *assign* npc stats, so you might try doing those calculations for a technomancer starting at resonance 5 or 6 - an player character - because that is what they are intended for. Then compare them to a hacker paying for rating 7-10 programs

Either way, its still way more reasonable than your current technomancer npc would be in the unhouseruled system.

*smirk* I usually *do* assign NPC stats, but Harisha and his associated team are special cases, being another team of runners that my PCs have twice called in for favors and help on a job, as well as being on the PC TM's submersion group and the adept's initiation group. Tracking them at a higher rate of resolution, almost like PCs in their own right, felt like the right thing to do.

And I completely agree that, either way, this is a massively more reasonable system for TM advancement than RAW.

But doing those numbers for Boru (the PC TM) will have to wait until I talk to Tim (the player) and give him the chance to rebuild the character; I need to see what he's gonna pick. However, going off of the stats he has now (Charisma 5, Intuition 5, Logic 5, Willpower 4, Resonance 5, Software 4), that'll give him System 5, Firewall 4, Response 5 (6), Signal 4 and 12 CFs at rating 5. So, for him to get his Matrix stats up to 6, it'll cost him 30 karma for Resonance 6, which'll bump System and Response to 6 and Firewall to 5, plus another 24 karma for the CFs under Udoshi's system. So, not nearly as much of a cost as compared to Harisha, who is starting at a lower point. Something to consider.

Well, I've had two sessions with the houserules, and no big issues; I've noticed that the PC TM has increased in actual effectiveness, which has been nice, because the player is very green and is not used to thinking tactically (although he has been getting better; last year, when I was running a Dresden Files RPG, during the first scenario, he told his full name to a demon... and spent the entirety of the subsequent fight rolling Conviction to keep the demon from taking over his mind).

Will report on further issues and progress as they come up, but thus far, this has been a good change.

Excellent. that is fantastic to hear. Thank you for being willing to give feedback on these rules.

If i may ask, how much more effective has your TM become? just a couple dice, maybe enough to rival the hacker? If so, that is what I was aiming for.


I was also thinking of taking a shot at balancing some of the technomancer echoes. Would this be something you would be interested in as well?

Needs more testing, also, don't have a hacker PC to test against. Seems to be more balanced, though.


Go for it; I'll be interested to see what you come up with.