Sad part is, my reference manual (That I finally found! ) is sitting right next to me. I've been kind of tired recently.Just go with a Revolver. The only advantage the DE has is that you can convert it into four (Although it's hard to find .41 Magnum, apparently) calibers.
Of course. 'Cause your drek is CUSTOM!

How many shots did you fire? From what I heard the .357 Desert Eagle was the best caliber for that design. The .44 magnum, and .50 cal being harder to handle cause of the recoil.

I suppose if you're a gigantic dude with bulging muscles, the Deagle .50 might merely be "appropriately sized" for you.




-k

Huge guns!

Per Shadowrun sourcebooks: 1 Nuyen ~ 1 Euro ~ 2 Québec franc ~ 3 CAS dollar ~ 4 UCAS dollar ~ 500 Aztlan peso

See Nuyen at the Shadowrun Wiki for more detail.

Based on approximate buying power: 1 US dollar ~ 1 Canadian dollar ~ 100 Yen ~ 1 Nuyen . . .

Hi. Okay.


It depends on the gun. Your Beretta 84 was designed to hold 13 rounds and was only subsequently limited by law. Someone else mentioned the double stack 1911s and I agree with them. Their grips are noticeably fatter to accommodate the double stack mag as the pistol was originally designed for a single stack mag. More modern guns, particularly those with polymer frames, don't have that problem as they're designed with a double stacked mag in mind.


There is no federal law limiting magazine capacities, or at least there hasn't been since the AWB expired in 2004. Far as I know, Ohio is the only state that limits to 30 rounds. All the rest (California, Hawaii, Maryland, Massachusetts, New Jersey, New York) limit to 10 rounds. The 50 rounders are perfectly legal in PA and everywhere else civilized people live.


Yeah. Fleming didn't know what the hell he was talking about. You want bitchy recoil, try an S&W 340 or 360. Same J-frame as the Airweight 38 (442), but even lighter by a couple ounces and chambered in .357 Mag. You'll hardly notice it in your pocket, but you notice the SHIT out of it when you pull the trigger.


But helping greatly by not having a hammer to snag on anything when you're drawing from concealed carry.


I would say that "best caliber" depends on what you're shooting at. In my opinion, the .357 Mag is the funnest to shoot of all the chamberings the Desert Eagle is available in, yes, largely because of the relative lack of noise and recoil. Astonishingly easy to hit things unusually far away for a handgun with that one. Actually, I'll go so far as to say it was the funnest time I've ever had with a .357. I wouldn't say the .50 is any less accurate (though I've never tested them) in practical terms, just more difficult to handle. In either case, the Desert Eagle is just a big, goofy handgun that's not terribly practical.

One magazine. Whatever that was. EVERY SINGLE casing bounced off the range partition and into my face. But it hit exactly where I aimed. This was an indoor range, so we are talking about 15-25 yards, and it was 10+ years ago.

same designer and it fires from the low end of the chamber instead of the top but there the similarity ends. This is for actual carry, the Mataba Uniqua is honking huge- at the range they still call it 'the Italian Monster" It had a 6" barrell and could be changed to an 8" barrell. The Chippa has a 2 inch barrell, and that is really not very good- that's what I have, pretty much on the airweight,

The lack of hammer on the extended j-frame of the S&W is expressly to not snag clothes, that's why it's called the 'bodyguard' frame but I think it is sacrificing accuracy for the reason I gave- again the airweight is great to hide, lousy to shoot. Mine is 38sp I do NOT want to think about how badly my hands would hurt after that.

For example after a box of 50 rounds at the range
.380- ok I did something my hands feel it.
.357 megnum S&W (normal) feel a bit of strain on my shoulders but that fades in an hour
.38sp in the airweight- my hand is bruised and I feel it for a week.

An aside on the .25- you barely feel it, UNLESS- the weird design of the .25 Bobcat has cases eject backwards rather than to the side. Usually these go over my head. Occassional they bounce ON my head and for that 'feeling it later' very rarely one goes down the front on my shirt. Hot brass is NOT something you want in a bra!

For augmenting weapons the .25 Barretta Bobcat is a great example. It is small, a hold out with a light load and almost nothing in intimidation factor. "Nice and light in a lady's handbag...no stopping power" on that Fleming had that right.

Barretta tried to fix this by turning the .25 Bobcat into the .38 Tomcat, giving more of a hit without sacrificing the small size. They did this by thining out the width of the barrell. All well and good and a typical SR upgrade on a gun to give it more power without sacrificing concealment BUT because the barrell now has thin metal containing a more powerful charge the Tomcat's have a distrubing tendency to crack, meaning they are worst than useless they are activly dangerous to the shooter.

I heard lack of barrel and frame life was a major issue with Italian Pistols. But that's second- and third-hand, I'll admit.

I was under the impression that the kick would kill a man of my acquaintance's size. He proved me wrong, but he still didn't do well, which makes me feel good in that schadenfreude way. That aside, I thought it was created as a short range armor piercing sidearm for use in close quarters against heavily armored foes. Like, tanks, or something.

I bet. I'm told that it's lot more exciting with rifle brass. I wear a rag around my neck and collar when I'm in a carbine class as part of my plan to learn from other people's pain.

I've read it was designed as a pistol that could be used to blow up the engines of cars that decided to run a roadblock. No idea how accurate that claim is.

There's a 4" and 6" version of the Rhino as well. Pretty stylish gun, I have to admit.
...Awakened Kodiaks. You shoot it, it goes berserk, and keeps going, and going, and going...

Yes, the concealed carry version has a 2" barrel, but there are also versions with 4"(second link in that post has a picture) and 6" barrel coming out.

I feel the need to be nitpicky here. Firstly, it's a Mateba Model 6 Unica. Secondly, it has many different barrel lengths, from 2" to 8". Also, it has models chambered for S&W .44 and .454 Casull. The .454 Casull can also accomdate .45 Colt.

I wish I could have one in California SO BAD. Maybe I should find cheap property in a more civilized state so that I can buy one there and bring it back with me. *grumble*

California is almost as bad as Canada from what I hear.

Probably as bad and worse in some regards, better in others.

To go back to talking about mags, my 1911A1 uses single stacked mags. I have the manufacturer 7rd mags and I purchased two Wilson Combat mags that hold 8rds. I have had nothing but feeding problems with the Wilson mags. They won't eject my hollow points properly and even ball ammo starts getting strange misfeeds. Those mags were expensive too. Whereas I have exactly zero problems with the 7rd mags that came in the box. I wonder if the double stacked mags end up with feeding problems or not.

There was a table in either the NEO-A's guide to real life or north america that listed a table showing the exchange rate for UCAS to nuyen. It was about $5 per nuyen on average IIRC.

Which part?

You've got Northern California (which is further subdivided into Central California, San Francisco Bay Area, Sierra Nevada, and Upstate California), Central Valley, Southern California (subdivided into the South Coast (Greater Los Angeles Area and the San Diego metropolitan area), Inland Empire, and Imperial Valley), Coastal California, and Eastern California.

I can tell you right now that the culture of LA and the Central Valley are vastly different.

Depends on the mags. Some will, some won't.

The Browning Hi-Power was pretty reliable, even when war production was happening with their magazines, and it was the first of the double-stacked Wondernines.

Sten Magazines weren't reliable due to cheap manufacturing, and they were single stack as well. Of course, if you were careful with the lips on the mags, they were pretty good.

They have totally different dialects too. I think it's actually broken down into SoCal, NorCal, Bay Area, and Valley in terms of dialects. I can usually tell if someone is from NorCal because they all say "Hella". Also how they refer to freeways. Southern residents use "the" in front of interstate and freeway numbers while Northern residents simply use the numbers.

Eastern California? That doesn't really exist. We just call that the desert.

Divided about the same way, roughly speaking: difficult rules all over, but heavy enforcement restricted primarily to the south. If you drove 500 miles north, do you suppose anyone would trouble you, even if you were firing a fully automatic mortar?


Right. The point I made upthread is that this doesn't do us any good when people are trying to compare the real life prices of things to the Shadowrun prices of things, because that "UCAS dollar" conversion figure has nothing at all to do with the value of our US dollar. You probably already took that for granted, but a lot of people try to use that UCAS dollar conversion as if UCAS dollars had the same value as real-life US dollars, and they just don't. [Not to mention that the chart in NAGtRL is 15 years out-of-date, of course. ]

It hasn't been the magazines which gave me trouble with the Hi-powers it's been the silly magazine interlock they put in the damned things. (for those who aren't as versed... it's a 'safety' which prevents the gun from firing when a magazine isn't inserted).

I actually really like both the old brownings... 1911 in .45ACP and the hi-power. Then again I come from more of a precision background and vastly prefer the Single-Actions with their nice lightweight triggers.


Overall, the bigger thing is with smaller rounds the double stack mags tend to be good. For guys the heavier rounds tend to be okay as well. But I don't see much of a difference as far as SR is concerned. The guns have what they have. If needs be, the extended magazine mod in arsenal is effectively double/triple stacking the things if you like. Mechanically it really doesn't matter.

Double/Triple Stacking, or Extended Single Stacking.

LOL I was well aware of the real/full name of hte Mataba but I was trying to keep it short. A wonderful gun to shoot but impossible to conceal carry- at least for me, and a stone bitch to keep running. All the exposed moving parts meant lots of room for things to get clogged so it took a lot of maintenance.

I've never had a problem with the life of Italian guns I own. Barrel or frames but if those 2nd and 3rd hand reports had been the mucked about Bobcat I'm not surprised.

For the mag quality I think it really goes to the manufacturer and that can be an element you do or don't want in your games. Personally I've had real problems with remington rounds in revolvers that I won't buy them. The thin brass deforming with discharge making it harder to eject them, thought that might make a great glitch.

Alot of gun comfort is weirdly personal. A lot of people use to liken me RL to the Aniota Blake of the first few books and I tired a Browning High power and just didn't bond with the gun. it was just there to shoot but big deal. DLN's husband has a Webley and I've fired it but it seems 'frail' in my hand compared to a normal S&W revolver. Now these are all very good guns with very loyal owners but I just never liked them enough to keep/buy them. I really liked the feel of the Walther PPK and PPK-S but with only 7 rounds in the mag? Not going there- not spending $400-500 for a gun only marginally smally than my .380 Barretta that would go in the same holster for concealed carry.

The orinigal STEN was famed for it's unreliability, like the MP40 and american M-3 it was made of stamped metal for cheap production but it could be very good or very bad depending on the individual unit, making it more like the French Chauchat in that regard. I've heard stories that beyond the troubled feed, it could jamb 'on' full auto if dropped.

That was because of the hair trigger, and was seen as a feature rather than a fault.

More than one story I've heard of a Sten being thrown through a French Farmhouse that was being used as a barracks/MG nest like a grenade that spins around, spitting bullets at foot level.

Ha! Even if it was used that way, it's hardly a feature.

Cheaper than a grenade, and affected more rooms. But, yeah, it was mostly a, "F***, I don't have a grenade. Oh well, Sten will work."-thing.

Another story came from a friend's Grandfather (By way of said friend, due to his Grandfather no longer being with us. ). He was traveling along in a truck with his unit, when it hit a bump and a gun's Sten went off, unloading into a ditch. After stopping and ensuring that everyone was OK, said Grandfather beat five kinds of hell out of the guy. "Our guys could have been SLEEPING in that ditch, you F***ing idiot!"

And that, folks, is why you don't combat load ALL the time and use thing little thing called a SAFETY. (OK, for the Sten it was a hole cut in the side for the bolt, but still...).

What doesn't make sense is how it requires that a gun be modified.

Magazines are made to fit guns, not the other way around.

I've looked at it as strengthening the magazine well so that the firearm is able to use the extended magazines additional weight with no issue.

I remember hearing that this was an issue with the Beta C-Mags with the AR-15 Family.

It's a game balance thing. "You can either have a bayonet or an extended clip, but not both."

The way this should work - if it isn't already - is that you can have an extended clip with no weapon modification, but that it'll change your Concealability. If you want to increase ammo capacity without changing Concealability, then that should obviously require a modification to the weapon.

Makes sense. That *would* change a lot of builds, because most of the the people with their Extended/Dual/Drum builds already don't care about Concealability (even though they probably should?).

Presumably, these rules were for game balance, not game logic; in that respect, it's a good idea. But if it bothers all the gun nuts, that makes the game less fun for them, and that's self-evidently bad. Of all the places to inject balance-by-rule, physical stats of guns is a bad choice, because those facts are verifiable. It's like how Battlefield 3 actually applies a different gravity force on bullets from different guns.

And those are the people usually hungry for mod slots. Now, some of those things I can understand requiring modification - sure, a drum feed requires changes to the weapon - but I think you're right that the number of slots these things end up taking up often is influenced heavily by game balance, which isn't my personal preference, particularly, as you say, with guns, which tend [like cars] to bring out the, um, fastidiousness of those of us into them.


That's really strange. Do you know why they do that? That seems like a complicated bunch of physics to put in place just to break how reality actually works.

AFAIK, it's just to make 'sniper' rifles more snipey. They get 'real gravity' (9.8 ), IIRC shotguns get 12, and I think everything else gets 15. I mean, they *also* have different effective ranges and bullet velocities, but apparently they chose to alter gravity in addition. Given the distances involved, it does change the total bullet drop by a few feet in some cases (but usually much less).

Magazines are thin plastic. Mag wells are ~0.2" of heat-treated aluminum. The mag well will not break first.

I've never seen any evidence that the people in charge of writing SR have ever actually fired a gun.

I don't see why that'd matter. The issue is just looking up the facts, and then not breaking them. I have nothing against balance-by-rule, but it's just a bad idea to do it somewhere the fanatics are going to take offense. SR is the kind of game that works best when everything is logically coherent (that is, 'don't lie about science').

It's a problem of trying to write detailed rules and mechanics about things that you don't understand and don't care about.

The Beta C-Mags are, well, I'm not sure what they're made of (Or were, they apparently fixed the problem), but they were a dual-drum system that held 100-rounds of 5.56mm NATO. That's a lot of weight, even for heat-treated aluminum. Especially for aluminum. I don't know, just something inside me tells me I should be trusting nice, heavy gunmetal more than lightweight aluminum.

Maybe it's all the aluminum... Everything that I've bent over the years. It's why I wasn't allowed in any shop class after awhile...

One thing i do not (logically) understand is why the heavy barrel mod uses 3 mod slots - all autofire-capable weapons i fired (Steyr AUG, MG74 = austrian version of MG42) can change the barrel in about 20 sec, and could accomodate a heavier barrel with absolutely no modification. Changing the AUG from Assault Rifle (20") to Carbine (16") to Subcarbine (14") to DMR (24"+Bipod) just needs a change of barrel, whereas the LMG (24"+Bipod) also uses an open bolt configuration.

I'm just saying, kzt, that "things that you don't understand and don't care about" is not the same as 'never fired a gun'. We want them to get the facts right, not some vague anecdotal evidence. Even in this thread, the aficionados disagree about the Desert Eagle, right? Rules written by fans are just as bad; imagine katana stats written by a fan, instead of someone trying for realism.

In any case, I very seriously doubt the extended magazine rules are the result of someone simply thinking that the magazine is a part of the gun. It's possible, but my money is on intentional balance. That's why I agreed with 3278's point: balance through realism, instead.

--
Sounds like more balance to me, NiL. RC is the single most important thing to balance, after all. I agree that Heavy Barrel is a poor job, of course.

It's never come up yet, but if anyone in my groups while I'm running tries to belt-feed/drum feed and fire an assault rifle continually, they're going to have smoke and possibly fire quickly.

Then maybe some barrel droop, and...

Haha, oh jeez. I don't think that level of realism is a great idea for SR, where a lot of abstractness lets it be fun and fast(er). I just think that, when factual details are present, they shouldn't make people cringe.

I can see why you can't have mods in the same place- ex a bayonet , under balley weight and a granade launcher. sure it can be workedo ut but it is for game balance etc- only one mod in that area- but when it's mods in different areas that become exclusive I don't get it.

A good area for problems is a drum mag. DLN's husband re-enacts the first world war and I've gotten to see, if not fire, some interesting full auto guns. One gentleman with an m08 (I think that's the designation, the WW1 German sub machingun) Said it can take around 30+ rounds in the mag but he never puts in more than 20 for fear of damaging the spring. Apparently the 50 round drum on tommy guns jambed badly and was a real pain to fix which is why they went to the 20-30 round stick mags. Loading those can be enough of a bother- I know that from my own hand guns and the SP-90.

I've seen the work taken to load the 30 round drums for a lewis gun, each round put in place, and then a screw like tool turned to make a space. Painfully slow and I hope belt feeds are easier it really gives you a sense of what it's like to load.

Things like what "high velocity" mean in SR suggest to me that they don't have the faintest idea about anything related to firearms. And don't care.

Again, fine, but that's not personal, anecdotal information. That's all. My whole point is 'get the facts right'; you can do that with Wikipedia.

'High Velocity' is nothing but a naming issue: they chose a bad (misleading) name for an abstract 'increase RoF' mod, that's all. Short of implementing RoF rules for all guns, I don't see anything wrong with it in that sense. (Personally, I hate HV in SR, but whatever.)

What's so horrible about guns that have higher then norm rate of fire and are equipped with specially designed barrels that dont over-heat as easily?
Also remember that "high velocity" weapons are from 2nd edition, their not current writers invention.

There is nothing wrong with high-RoF guns, it is just the name that is horrible - because a high velocity gun fires high-velocity projectiles ... also, the "magazine" and "clip" designations are completely wrong ... a clip would be the "internal magazine"