Invest in surveillance and communications.

Once a marauding/intruding gang is spotted, swat them with spirits/magic.

An unarmed group of pacifist any size is at the mercy of an armed group of any size. Pacifists are parasites who depend on the actions of the armed people (who they despise) to keep them safe.

I think the players need to paint the town red ...

There are various forms of negotiation.
Stakes with the heads of the last group of people to attack with a sign that says "if you cross this fence you will die" is a form of negotiation.

@kzt
Well, not so true in a world of magic...
I guess we had it here with "why you should not storm a church in Shadowrun"....

Or maybe armed people are parasites who depend on the farmers? Snrk.

Thats nowhere an form of negotiation.
Thats an open invitation for every gang in a 100miles radius to stop by, say fucking hello and "cross that fence"

Then you get more stakes. ...

Committing open atrocities is not a good idea, unless you want to stick around. (Aka force the farmers to pay you every day for protection.)

It is quite hard to find a way, which forces said gang to stand down and prevents other gangs from stepping up, without wasting huge amounts of time or resources...

But… isn't this your plan all along? You're not good guys, you're shadowrunners. So you trick the farmers into needing you forever, by converting their moderate enemies into severe and implacable ones. And then Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia.

If you kill enough people who mess with you the word will get around and the number of people who are willing to mess with you will go down significantly over time.

No, I agree with the others: it'll only go up. Plus, of course, the spiritual transformation of their little farming community into a warrior nation; pathos.

Nope, no matter how good in combat u are (or think u are) sooner or later u get a visit from A.R. Man
*sod*, didnt want to be the one who tells ya that A.R. doesn't stand for Augmented Reality, it stands for Ass Rape :O
Cause sooner or in case of Dragons later everyone looses a battle and to be at the Mercy of a Gang isnt as funny as u might think

error 906 doublepost

Worst superhero ever. I think Steven Lynch invented him?

You know the guy who runs the Mafia in your city has a lot good stuff in his house. How often people break is to steal it? Well, pretty much never. Because everyone knows that if you do that you will be dead. Do all the gangs from miles away line up so they can demonstrate how macho they are by breaking in?

hmm i dont get it, so whos steven lynch? ^^

A.R. Man is from Cyanide&Happiness a Webcomic
http://www.explosm.net
feel free to delete the link if it isnt allowed

The Mafia is a massive criminal organization, not some farmers. Besides, literature and film are full of examples of people doing exactly that, as well as the whole 'try the fastest gun/greatest swordsman' trope.

Ha, I'd forgotten that one, Stahlgewitter. Steven Lynch is a comedy singer, he did a similar joke.

Massive? Only in movies. In Chicago, with 2.3 million people, there were something like 70 made members in 1997, running 3 crews. There were 50,000 members of the Gangster Disciples in Chicago at that same time.

Thank you for bringing RL politics into a thread about a run. *facepalm*

Particularly when we haven't even established that anyone in the Jungles is a pacifist.

Massive as in multi-city, and in comparison to *the farmers*. But the point isn't the size, it's the character; they're fellow criminals, not upstart prey.

And the mafia has heads on pikes in fron of their houses...Did not think so.

The mafia is a criminal organisation. You may guess three times what would happen if they overstep too much...


This "If you kill enough people who mess with you the word will get around and the number of people who are willing to mess with you will go down significantly over time. " is only true in a very small number of cases.

What happens if you start killing everybody messing with you in your hometown?
There will be the police willing to mess with you! And if you kill several officers, they won't stop messing with you.

This is only "true" if you make the price needed to pay to bring you down higher than the benefit of bringing you down. (Count Dracula is a finde historical example of this kind of trick. It is less about the "deaths or brutallity" it is more about beeing percived stronger than you are and additional to that as routhless)

But it only works, if the world around you is able to ignore you. Your sphere of dominance is far off traderoutes and important ressources.
The second this changes, they will have an interest in messing with you. And at this point, they will rally all the other people to start messing with you. And if you have the record of a rabbit dog...

Like this one: http://www.freakingnews.com/pictures/9000/...it-dog-9221.jpg

There is no need for the Don to put the head of a burglar on a spike. Everyone in the criminal community knows what happened to him, even if the body is never found.

You are in the barrens. There are no police. There are no services. You options are to hide, submit or fight.

The can't hide, as they occupy and depend on a very obvious piece of terrain.

They have the option of surrendering to the gang and depending on the gang to protect them from others. They have chosen to not do that.

The other option, the one they have chosen, is to use violence or the threat of violence as part of their self-help process, as they have no judicial remedy. So the next set of questions that have to be answered are setting the scope for the use of violence and to determine how they will protect themselves against various threats.

The most effective way to use violence to accomplish the objective of being left alone is for people understand that nothing they can obtain from you with the use of force is worth the price they will pay. This typically requires that at some point you demonstrate to them that you are both willing and able to make people using force against you to pay a price that far exceeds what they consider a fair exchange.

You also need to make it clear to everyone that you are not a threat to anyone who is not attacking you, attacking your people, threatening them or otherwise engaging in or preparing to engage in violence against the group or members of the group.

Whether this means killing everyone who enters your territory or arranging to murder the loved ones of everyone who attacks you or executing some other tactic to punish people who attack is a strategic decision that needs to be based on capabilities and what your people are willing to do and what you are willing to be responsible for.

True, nobody likes those...

I think you're making a classic blunder, there. Inevitably, one of the people you make an example of will have an unstoppable lone hero family member (or very close friend, etc.), and they will come systemically burn you to the ground on principle. They may or may not also be too old for this shit.

Frank Castle, never too old for this drek.

Frank'n'Castle.
He does not get to be too old, he will be rebuilt.
Because they have the technology.
They can make him faster, stronger, meaner...

"Maybe not meaner."

Back OT:

First the group needs to figure out what the farm already has. But priority should be for sensors, make sure the sensors have thermographic (the cameras are cheap)-1 per building interior, and 9 perimiter, watchers to patrol the perimiter, with 1 or 2 spirits as backup. Cause of the size at least 4 or 5 signal repeaters kept inside the compound. Also there should be at least 2 or 3 MCT Flyspies roving about.

Gear:
Sport Rifle or shotgun for those that can use them already.
Knife throwing and blades would be one of the things the residents would be trained in.
Unarmed combat will also be taught.
A small selection of body armor will be purchased either second hand or new.
Pistol training is mandatory, as is automatics (essentially get everyone up to a firearms groupskill of 1 or 2).
Weapons to be purchased (assuming the farmers have some sport rifles and shotguns):
A knife for everyone that doesnt have one.
A dozen pistols with 4 magazines each and ammo.
A couple of shotguns.
A half dozen AK-97's, with bipod and recoil pad and laser sight.
4 magazines each, and enough ammo for each.
Enough shotgun and rifle ammo to provide 4 full clip or magazines each.
A disposable commlink

I'd stayaway from grenades and explosives as they could damage the crops and the green houses. Though one troll armed with a panther cannon could be useful.



BTW-Yes I could see 20 armed gangers giving 200 farmers fits. 50 are definitely non combataants, of the remaining 150--how many are able to put up a fight? Probably a good 50 have the courage to do so, the remaining 100, would more than likely flee or just hunker down. I'd give them at most 5 mages (probably shamans of some nature), they probably have a few spells amongst them, mostly health, a few detection, and maybe 1 or 2 illusion/combat spells. Spirits are a different matter and probably have at most the one or two active at any given point in time. Given the size of the operation, It is likely that there are areas of the perimiter that are not manned, this is probably how the gangers get in and get out with the food.

15,000 minus the runners' fees, remember. That's cutting it pretty close unless you could get a good deal on the weapons and ammo.

You've had a lot of good replies, so just throwing some disjointed ideas out here:

- Will you need to be on the defensive much? Use mines and booby-traps, fill the area with enough drek that scanners and MAD detectors are useless. Snipers

- Invest properly in your militia. Training, a functional bulletproof jacket and tricked-out rifle, external smartlinks, scanner shades and a couple of combat drug injectors will do wonders for your average street thugs output - not only because it augments his combat prowess, but it does wonders for morale.

It's a lot more expensive, yes, but will give you a motivated and hard-hitting force, even if it is smaller. Another possibility is to invest in lieutenants who get choice gear and training, but that won't do you a lot of good when a sensible enemy targets them first.

- See if you can get discounts on gear. The larger street gangs or gun runners will often cut you slack if you help them out with something else, like getting them rare gear or pulling a hit on the authorities or opponent groups. Arsenal goes into detail about the 'gray market' and corporate scrip, a savvy gun merchant can get quality firearms and ordnance a lot cheaper.

I'm surprised no one has gone this rout...

3,000 for six Armorer Kits.
1,000 for a R2 Armorer Tutorsoft.
1,000 for a R2 Blades Tutorsoft.
1,000 for a R2 Infiltration Tutorsoft.
1,000 for a R2 Archery Tutorsoft.

We're at 7k spent so far. I'm sure that, since they have a giant tree farm, they have axes and the like. They probably know their way around Blades fairly well, but the Tutorsoft will give them formal training. Since they have access to so much wood they can make their own bows and arrows (armorer skill). Since they have so much foliage around, they can make their own ghillie shrouds, which will help with their Infiltration skill.

For a group of farmers, we're looking at Strength 4 humans, 6 orks, and 8 trolls (one point above normal), that means their bows will be base DV 6P, 8P, and 10P, targetting the (more than likely) lower Impact armor of the gangers. Add in that they'll be trained to Take Aim from hiding, hitting the invaders with Success Tests instead of Opposed Tests. More than likely the farmers will all benefit from the Home Ground quality also, gaining an additional +2 to all Combat Tests.

You don't need a trained militia, you need an organized guerilla force.

On page 52 of Unwired it says that programs can be run on a remote node and be used by any subscribers - so in this case the Tutorsofts are run by a decent commlink (supplied by the group at first) so that the maximum number of people can access them at a time.

To give the guerillas a more dangerous edge, add in one Assaying Kit and a R2 Arcana and R2 Negotiations autosoft (2.5k extra). This'll allow the magically active to start gathering plant reagents from their environment and the Arcana/Negotiations will allow anyone with the ability to start Calling free Plant spirits for aid. Plant spirits have Concealment and Movement, two Powers that first responders will want.

So for a total of 9,500 you give the community the equipment necessary to defend themselves with their own resources.

EDIT: And the ability to make extra money on the side refining natural plant reagents.

EDIT 2: Assuming a 3 Agility and a 1 Skill, with Take Aim 3 and Home Ground we're looking at 9 dice for the defenders (about 3 successes). Their Infiltrate will be Agi 3, Infiltrate 1, Home Ground 2 = 6 (2 successes), imposing a -4 penalty to see them with the ghillie shrouds. Assuming the gangers have 4 Body and Armor Vests (6/4), they're rolling 8 dice to resist the 9P from a human archer getting the drop on them, resulting in an average of 7P damage taken and being knocked down. It only gets worse for the Ork and Troll Rangers.

It's always Calling with you.

Not alwa.... actually yes, yes it is. It's that good.

Yup. Which is why it should never exist or be used. Anyway.

I'm not sure a lot of bow and arrows are as effective (even cost-effective) as a bunch of cheap automatics. :/ It is an interesting idea, though.

Yes, because it's 1670, and they're in the Baltics.

Can someone in 2070 even make bows and arrows out of wood in the first place? (Assuming they happen to have the right wood.) Also, don't tree farms ('forests') cover acres and acres, like the size of the whole Barrens? Don't tutorsofts (which only give an average of +1 die) take a while (weeks) and require them to have a bunch of free karma? The whole thing is suspicious.

Hmm? Why wouldn't they be able to? If you could do it - and you could - why couldn't they?


They absolutely can, but they don't have to: tree farms ["nurseries"] can be small city lots, but they're not going to be growing enormous trees. And this development _is_ acres and acres, but I'm not certain they grow trees of a size or type to make a lot out of: greenhouses typically aren't the first choice for a nice yew.

Because everything in 2070 in polymer and metal, obviously. And I sure couldn't, thankyouverymuch. Such things come from stores, just like fruits and vegetables.

That's what I was thinking: they said 'greenhouses', not 'tree farm'. A nursery sells shrubs and flowers. They'll be out of trees bloody fast if they only have a city lot (at various stages of growth, too).

Sure. But you don't make decent ones out of green freshly harvested wood. And, realistically, it's a lot harder to learn how to use a bow effectively in combat than an AK or even a bolt action rifle.

The alternative is a group that doesn't have any Instruction skill at all and the training part would have to happen anyways. You'd be assuming the farmers have Automatics instead of Longarms or Pistols, or that they have a skillgroup.


As effective or more, especially when compared to "cheap" automatics.

AK-97 - 500
Clip - 15
Price per shot - 2
DV: 6P, -1 AP against Ballistic.
Notes: Gunshots are easy to hear; BF/FA encourages "spray and pray," as well as not aiming as well.

Str 4 Bow - 400
Price per shot - 5
DV: 6P against Impact.
Notes: Nearly silent; fewer shots encourage aiming.

Generally speaking, Ballistic Armor tends to be higher than Impact Armor, so you're at an advantage at targeting the lower of the two armors. Also, since a good archer lines up a shot (and with the Infiltration/ghillie shroud you're setting it up first) you're able to use more dice than the alternative. Fewer shots means less ammo used and more resources kept.



Matter of opinion. It all comes down to training, which is kind of the point here. Realistically, the fight is over after the first volley of arrows, if shot properly from sentries that've taken aim.

I've tried to learn to shoot a bow and have learned to shoot a rifle. You can train someone to shoot a rifle at a man-sized target at 200 meters with a high chance of success in under a week. Good luck with trying to get them to reliably hit with a bow at the same sized target at 100 meters in a month. It's a much more complex skill and requires a lot more physical strength. In fact, you can tell from a skeleton whether someone was a longbow archer, due to the deformation of the left arms and bone spurs. There was a good reason why England banned all games and amusements for men and boy other then shooting longbows on Sundays, and required churches to provide archery targets.

kzt is quite right. The rules don't provide for it, but the main reason guns won out over bows when they both performed pretty much the same in terms of damage done to another army at a given range was because you could round up a few hundred guys with working arms and both eyes and teach them to use that rifle semi-competently in a matter of days or weeks. Bows? Fuggedaboutit. It takes a lifetime to make an archer, and one bad wound to put him out of commission forever. (Well, this is not strictly speaking true in Shadowrun, but still.)

I don't remember the exact wording but there was a saying that to train a good archer you had to train his father (not 100% sure on that last bit, it might have been his granfather.)

I also agree that a bow made out of the first pice of green wood you get your hand one will be a piece of crap. To make a bow strong enough to be worthwhile you need a strong wood who's been properly dried.

There's also the little detail of how the person to be protected will react - saying you've bruned the defense budget on software to teach them to craft and use bow is likely to result in reactions like 'yeah right, did you get a soft for flint-knipping to go with it ? you know, so we can make the spears to go with the bows'.

Oh, no, you'd have no problem, nor would they. Building your first bow is complicated, difficult, and time-consuming; after that, it's just complicated and time-consuming. Given the matrix and basic tools and materials, anyone can make a bow. But:

Actually the crossbow beat out the bow, and then the gun came along and beat out the crossbow (better penetrating power). Of course for the farmers, a crossbow might be an acceptable alsternative to the bow. Regarding traps, problem would be the coverage. The area is a couple of square clicks, so yeah you could place IEDs and punji sticks to defend the huge green houses, but they would have to be in strategic areas to be effective. You'd nee alot to cover all your bases and at 15K I don't see that happening.

I don't buy your 'archers would get Aim and Surprise, guns wouldn't' point, though. Those are unrelated to the weapon.

Drop bears.

Oh man, I've tried shooting a few bows. It's much harder than using firearms, although I appreciate the workout. I'd say there's almost no comparison in terms of how quickly you can build your ability to hit a target, especially a small target the size or an orange or something.


EDIT: Khe Sahn the bad guys. Let them take a certain point of high ground, but then encircle it and psychologically torture them for a year by preventing them from getting resupply and harassing them with unending mortar strikes.