Quick (hopefully) question about reaction enhancers. The book says that they can be combined with other initiative enhancers, but I don't see any other enhancements that are allowed to be combined. i.e. Wired Reflexes, Move by Wire, and the bioware version of WR all say they cannot be combined with other initiative enhancers. So what, exactly, can reaction enhancers be combined with? In looking at some of the improved archetypes on the forums here it looks as though they are combining WR with Reaction Enhancers, but I want to make sure that's legit before I encourage my GM to start throwing heavy objects at me.

Thanks in advance for any assistance!

This is a dumb mistake.
Reaction Enhancers used to be compatible with everything, aside from MoveByWire.
Basically, everything that gives more INI PASSES can't be combined with anything else that gives Ini PASSEs. Aside from Drugs.
But the Reaction Enhancers can be combined with anything, aside from the MoveByWire. At least, it used to be like this in SR3 . .

Double check the description for Wired Reflexes in SR4A on page 342. It says that Wired Reflexes cannot be combined with other forms of Initiative Enhancers except Reaction Enhancers.

In SR4(a), Reaction Enhancers work with both Wired Reflexes and Move By Wire (in Augmentation, p41) ; but not Synaptic Boosters (or magical means).

Hngh, i hate such random changes . .

Doesn't have to be random. MBW has just been perfected enough that RE's now work with them.

That may be the case, but why are the synaptic accellerators now incompatible with the reaction enhancers?
Probably balance reasons, but they were not under SR3 rules, so characters with both of those are de facto unable to be ported over . .

*shrug* Did not think they were compatible in Previous Editions, and can no longer check, as all of my books for those editions were stolen. Can't answer that one.

Part of the problem is that the language around "reaction enhancers" is imprecise.

Additionally, at least part of the text was copy/pasted from the third edition rules, which had a differing mechanic.

So the text is inconsistent.




-k

Synaptics were not compatible with Wired Reflexes and not with MoveByWire.
And the compatibility to enhanced reflexes cyber-ware depends on revision of errata and how you read it i think . . But they were compatible with Reaction Enhancers too.
Everything was compatible with Reaction Enhancers, safe for MoveByWire i think . .

Did you mean Synaptic Booster the bioware? if so then the reason is that they do the same thing in the same place. synaptic boosters grow the spinal column thicker so information can be sent faster. reaction enhancers replace sections of the spinal cord with super conductive metals so information can be sent faster.

speaking of reaction enhancers. I haven't played 3rd edition in a while, but didn't the core rule book have two types of cyber that gave you inititive passes. I know that Wired Reflexes was in there, but i feel like there was a second.

Reaction Boosters I think they were called. Basically the poor man's wires. It took like 3 levels of the ware for 2 passes.

That was a Bioware "Chemical Treatment" of some kind.

Boosted reflexes they were called, and not to be sniffed at. They were a feasible option for those not wanting to blow a whole big chunk of Essence and nuyen.

Well. Definitely to be sniffed at. Also sniggered and guffawed at. But if you weren't cool enough for real mods…

Heh...

Look at it from this side:
They take less starting ressources in both money and essence and are the only type of enhancement that is compatible with synaptic accellerators and thus the only way you will ever get 4 dice for initiative . .
So they were not the instant bam, but the more in the long run planning character enhancement of choice, as long as you did not want to be a rigger or have them removed any time soon . .

Thought that they took you to five dice when all was said and done. 1 Base, +1 for Boosted Reflexes and +3 for Synaptic Accelerators... Or do I remember incorrectly?

And yes, they were great for the planner.

That always seemed like more a glitch than a feature, to me. Not that our characters ever went that far before we made new ones, anyway.

They also explicitly could not be upgraded. Which made for weirdness about getting them taken out and replaced, etc etc.

That's part of the confusion in going from SR3 to SR4. Boosted reflexes and the synaptic accelerator were basically combined into synaptic boosters.

Reaction Enhancers go with both wired reflexes and move-by-wire.

That was my take too.

- J.

Don't forget the real problem with the compatibility of reaction enhancers and wired reflexes/MBW. The rule classifies them as "initiative enhancements" meaning that anything that indirectly increases the initiative attribute logically must be an "initiative enhancement" as well. As such no 'ware or power that increases initiative passes, that has the incompatibility rule, can be combined with stuff like the suprathyroid gland or anything else that increases REA or INT.
The developers should strike the rule and say something like "['ware/Power]is incompatible with anything/any implant or power that increases initiative passes." If they still wanted certain implants to be incompatible with Reaction Enhancers, there should be a separate rule saying so.

I guess this is a case of bad copy/paste from 3rd edition. There you did not get a set number of passes but your initiative score determined the number of passes. As long as you could substract 10 from your score and get a positive number you got another pass.

Actually, no such exception. AFAIK.

Bye
Thanee

Uhm... no?

It can be seen that way, sure, but it hardly must be seen that way.

Bye
Thanee

Well, they are certainly compatible, but they still don't allow more than the usual 5 IP's i think . .

Then I have to ask what is an Initiative Enhancement? Increases to REA or INT increase Initiative (the Initiative Attribute to be exact), as such they offer enhancements to Initiative.

The other possibility is saying "Initiative Enhancement" was never properly defined, so the only thing we know to be an "Initiative Enhancement" are the Reaction Enhancers. This however makes the incompatibility rule a non-rule for WR/MBW. If there is no thing that is classified as "initiative enhancement" except reaction enhancers, the incompatibility never comes into play. For other implants/powers this rule then means that they only are incompatible with Reaction Enhancers, but can be combined with anything else.

Anything that directly influences Initiative. And Reaction Enhancers.

My main point, though, is - as you also said - that it is not 100% clear. So there is not just a single interpretation. Otherwise it would be 100% clear.

Bye
Thanee

Show me the rule, then I will believe it.

Bye
Thanee

Where does any rule restrict it to direct increases only? If that were the case AFAIK there is nothing that does that without also increasing passes. And even then there is only the spell Increase Reflexes.

The problem is that it actually is pretty clear, but logic does not produce the expected or wanted results.

Hey All,

Thanks for the help, this certainly cleared up a lot of my confusion (including my glitching the reading check on MBW).

In which case you would never be able to raise the Reaction Attribute or the Intuition Attribute with Karmna once play started, because if you did, your Wires (accelerators, etc) would cease to work. Which is an implausible conclusion. Therefore, anything that Raises the Attributes directly is not an "Initiative Enhancement" by default. I generally go with things that Increase the Initiative IP's.

It is also a wrong conclusion. Spending Karma on REA or INT does not create an enhanced/augmented Attribute. It raises your base attributes(physical, mental and special). Reaction Enhancers, Suprathyroid glands etc. create augmented attribute ratings. Additionally the incompatibility is restricted to technology and magic. Spending Karma is neither.

That is a very sensible houserule and one most people probably use, but unfortunately that is not what the rules say. Not that that stops anyone from playing differently.

Does it always specify that? I don't believe so. You yourself asked what an 'Initiative Enhancement' is - it's not defined. You're both making the same point - RAW is unclear, RAI is not.

sorry it depends on what implant/power you are looking at. Some limit it others don't. the point stands though that spending Karma is not an enhancement to initiative but the creation of a higher base initiative.

Actually I'm making another point. RAW is clear, but creates undesired results.

As I've said before, one thing I would dearly love to see in future editions of SR is an actual Glossary of Defined Terms.

So many arguments could be resolved if the rules were more precise in wording.



-k

QFT

Damn skippy!!