If it wasn't evident, I am not referring to the fantasy setting in Shadowrun, but the many posters in this thread who act like vegetarianism is something to be pitied - I find that sentiment pitiful, even though I enjoy meat and dairy.

Didn't seem like they were being too serious...it looked to me like they were just kind of joking around about it?

No, I actually do eat vegetarians in real life. You can't eat other meat-eaters; bad for the heart.

We are part of nature, as is everything else. We've "set aside natural evolution" about as much as birds have. They engage in mate selection as well.

And there is that gamey taste...

I think typically vegetarians are thinner, so not as much meat on them. You should want to eat a meat-eater, they probably will have much more fat on them. It's a survival trait for vegetarians, makes ourselves seem less appetizing.

Humans are omnivores, requiring both meat and vegetables in order to stay healthy. Most of us are likely to be eating way too much meat in our diets.

And, yes, I'm just as guilty.

The first sentence is not totally true - you don't need meat in your diet to stay healthy.

The second sentence is spot on though

Yeah, but supplementing missing required meat-source nutrients, by using non-meat alternatives, can be a pain in the ass. Sometimes literally.



-k

If you use that as food source that's practically cannibalism.

I wish, but no. Vegetarians tend to avoid a lot of processed foods as well. They have less simple fats, less cholesterol, less preservatives, less accumulated toxins. Even vegetarians wouldn't meet FDA standards for meat, but they'd be a lot closer than your average American carnivore.

This thread is reminding of one of my favorite bits of the shadowtalk, from Cybertech. I don't know why I like, except every time I read the one comment I remember sun warmed fruit (apples, peaches, blackberries, cherries), straight off the tree or vine. We grew up near a farm that would let us pick our fill, generally for the buckets we had though I tended to come back in shades of dark reds and purples from the berries. It honestly is a frightening thought that there could be a world where that couldn't happen, and is one thing I try to keep in mind when establishing the dystopic mood of SR.

The bit I'm thinking of is under the Mycoprotein segment. There's two comments that really do it, the first is Neon Samurai lamenting that in all their (then) 29 years, they had never had a real steak. The reply that I love is "Meat is overrated. Fruit, on the other hand... You haven't lived until you've tasted real, fresh fruit." by Feral.

Just love it.

And then you have SR4 books such as New Seattle explaining how there are farms with real food everywhere in Seattle and how you find restaurants with affordable real food...

The exact food situation in Shadowrun has always been complicated. In Style Over Substance I had to leave it very open, in order to let each GM choose whatever he prefers, and I still had people disagreeing with the way I deal with it.

My bad if I'm being over-senstive, but the jests about pitying people with a vegetarian partner must come from somewhere, don't you think?

Anyway, I'm not offended or anything, I just wanted to point out that you can be as fat, muscular, trim, unhealthy or healthy as you want to be on a vegetarian, freegan or vegan diet - in case anyone held on to some misconception otherwise.

Edit: Barring other constraints, such as genetic predisposition, time and nutritional education, of course.

Well, I have yet to meet a single strict vegan who is overweight...but that may very well have other explanations. Vegetarians I know ppl of several sizes.

...and it was the boyfriend who wanted to be pitied for having a veggie girlfriend

(having dated both vegetarians and vegans, I am sympathetic to his plight though: it's not always easy being in a relationship with someone who has very different eating habits--regardless of what they are!)

Worst I've seen was a vegan friend of mine who's boyfriend decided to go on the atkins diet - there was almost nothing left that both of them could eat...

I also think this is true. In a relationship you can't be eating different stuff all the time, unless both partners really don't care much about eating. I could only with huge difficulty date a vegetarian, and vegan would be even worse - but not by much, really. I would assume the opposite is true as well. However, obviously as an omnivore I can adapt my diet, while usualy veggies and vegans are more rigid in their views. It is those extreme forms that cause problems, I think, for instance, if they refuse to eat something touched by a utensil - knife, dish, whatever - that has also touched meat, and not just raw meat.

As with most things, it is usually the more tolerant who will 'have to' adapt to the less tolerant if it's going to work.

Ideally, even a strict vegan and a rabid meat-eater can eat their own preferred diets in each others' company and both will respect that--but it does make meal-times more complicated and less social.

In almost all of my relationships there's been something I've had to 'give up' eating in shared meals, for one reason or another--allergies; fears; convictions; or simple bat-shit craziness...

I feel for you, mate. In a relationship I'm a food fanatic: I couldn't have one without eating together. It just wouldn't work. There's nothing better than cooking for someone, and then eating together. Well... not nothing. But you get my drift. It's tough, but even a food allergy, where the girl can't help it, would put me off.

Unfortunately for the veggies out there, most of the the ridiculously good dishes involve some sort of meat. Vegetables are very important, too, but it somehow always revolved around the meat. Even if it's not the meat itself that makes things special: Very often it's the sauce, or spices, or just the combination of things. But it'll usually be with the meat.

Anyway, I hold with the Chinese in this respect: If it ain't up a tree by the count of three... it'll end up on my plate .

Not really a Chinese proverb...

My soon-to-be fiancee shares pretty much every food-love I have though, except one (mussels/clams)--even the weirder stuff--so you don't have to pity me anymore (thankfully!)

I try to adapt. Still haven't quite managed to get vegan pancakes as perfect as my normal ones . .
Just good that she's not such a fanatic as to try and get me to stop eating meat and the such . . .


Also, on a slightly realted but probably TMI Note: Foodplay can and does suffer too. Well, at least with vegans . .

Whipped cream, sure...even honey with the strictest vegans...

...beyond that though...

...maybe I'm just too tired (or too vanilla? ), but I can't really see much else that would be limited by vegans or vegetarians.

(unless of course we go all 'Hot Shots' or weird northern european porn... )

Milk?
Chocolate?

Hell, vegans don't eat jelly beans because of one of the stuffs used in their coating having been made from lice . . or gummi-stuff because it's made with gelatine which is made from animals . .

Milk chocolate, sure...the good stuff doesn't contain dairy though

as for milk...there's soymilk to use as substitute.

Never used jellybeans though...
...but I guess a case could be made for gelatin/jello.

the as you call it "good stuff" is also a vile and bitter thing that belongs on/into cake at best . .
and soymilk is . . well, it takes a lot of getting used to, taste wise, at the very least . .
haven't really used jellybeans myself either, i ain't kinky enough to think of a use for them that can't be done with something else in a better way . .
gelatin/jello is, at least, not such a sticky mess compared to many other things one could use . .

and just because i am tired enough and already way too far down this route: haven't dared ask about the relationship between vegan lifestyle and BJ's yet . .

That would depend...those who are vegan for ethical animal-cruelty reasons are often fine with it, in my experience. I think the pro/con ratio is fairly equal regardless of other eating habits - but I can't say I've done enough study on the matter (theoretical or practical) to be certain of that...


Edit: (They really shouldn't let a swede and a german have discussions of this nature on an american forum, btw...)

Indeed... You guys are just plain weird...
I mean really... Jelly Beans?

*shrugs*
tried it once at least . .
it was fun, but not very stimulating due to much laughter on both sides.

Remember, for a good study you'd need to sample different ages as well es genders... http://bigdaddyrugby.files.wordpress.com/2...w=278&h=300

You Germans... Sheeesh...

*nods*
we still have fun ^^

I don't mean to butt in on your views, but have you never had a "ridicolously good" dish that did not revolve around meat. I am aware you wrote "most" and not "all", but it seems more to me like you're the kind of guy who grew up with meat and it's in your favorite dishes. I'm the same way, and I see nothing wrong with conservatism in that regard - but while there's meat in my favorite dishes doesn't mean I have not had a lot of crazy good food without.

Also, here's a real saying I think all Sinophiles can relate to: In 1986, Prince Philip commented on Chinese eating habits to the World Wildlife Fund conference saying: "If it has got four legs and it is not a chair, if it has two wings and it flies but is not an aeroplane, and if it swims and is not a submarine, the Cantonese will eat it."

That is the important thing...

I said most, and I did change that after originally writing all. YES, there are very excellent dishes without meat - but they often get better with meat or fish added. For instance, a salad of rocket, small (cherry) tomatoes, strawberries, white mushrooms, chicoree, and some stuff like sunflower seeds, pumpkin seeds and stone pine seeds (?), topped with a dressing of olive oil, pumpkin seed oil, sweet balsamico vinegar, preferredly at least 3 years matured, better 5, salt, pepper and stuff. Eat with good white bread that doesn't go sweat or all lumpy/guey when you chew it. This is a fucking good salad I could literally kill for, as long as all the ingredients are good.
(Try lightly mixing some excellent pumpkin seed oil from austria with passion fruit balsamico vinegar with just a little salt and pepper and soak up with white bread for a sheer ogasmic experience, yes all without meat.)

Now, vegans can't eat it as soon as you add some parmegiano regiano - wich makes the salad even better. And veggies can't eat it as soon as you add any of either strips of chicken breats, turkey breast, paté de foie gras de canard, smoked salmon (wild, not from a fish farm), shrimps, crab, lobster, or even roast beef. Each of these things unquestionably add to the dish - at least in my eyes. So go figure.

Taste, as they say, cannot be discussed. However, vegan replacements exist for anything these days. For instance, my favorite kind of bacon flavoured salt is vegan. Though I see your point, and the added hassle in acquiring rarer substitute cheeses, meat et al must seem taxing to non-vegans. I know I make sure to do an extra bit of shopping if I have vegan guests and want to whip up a treat.

The problem is that many of those vegan replacements are 'make-do' - they are similiar to what they intend to mimic, but dont work in quite the same ways, don't taste the same, and often use unnecessary additives to acheive the similarity. Also, the availability of those substitutes is very varied. Some of what's out there just can't be found in many places, and it can get quite expensive to have it on special order. And as for rarer cheeses, meats, and the like -- there are no vegan versions of those, nor should there be. It would be like trying to make pinto beans and eggplant out of cow...

No, if you want to cook vegan food, you shouldn't really look to substitutes for animal products and try to make the same dishes. There's plenty of vegan dishes out there (proper indian cuisine has tons of the stuff) to use as inspiration.

Replacements should really only be considered when a group of people can't agree - and the non-veggie or non-vegan wants the taste of something meaty. Well, as you said, it rarely works.

I have to say I'm somewhat glad that, while there are some vegetarians around me, there aren't so many vegans, or actually, none. They also would definitely be ridiculed, at least in their absence, by some people. That's funny, really, because most regular vegetarian dishes can easily make do without any other products of animal origin.

Yeah, I enjoy a lot of vegetarian and vegan food...

...but I wouldn't give up my meat for anything. The good quality stuff, that is - highly processed, gas-packed meat from animals trapped in tiny cages I can do without. I'd rather pay twice as much for a great tasting steak and eat them half as often.

Hah, if I could afford that...

Right now I get my meat from a turkish store, which seems to combine the contradictory values of cheap AND good. Well, good enough for me right now. I have never tried expensive steak, at least not the stuff from japanese (wagyu) beef. My parents used to get meat straight from a farmer who organically raised his cows, and they were basically out on the field all day. That meat was very lean, not like the expensive stuff you buy today, but it was really, really great, too. I don't even think he let it mature - the cow got slaughtered and an hour or two later you got the meat. But it may have been slaughtered earlier, I don't really remember.

Yeah, I wasn't taking about the ridiculously expensive stuff...

A well-matured triple-A Alberta beef rib eye, or a Black Angus, is good enough for me

You can take the meat and cook it right ater slaughter, but it isn't the best way, and if you don't eat it right away you have to let it hang for awhile to soften it (rigor mortis and all that). It's really best after 3-4 weeks of proper hanging...

The stuff you get at grocery stores is often artificially tenderized and packed in gas to make it last longer. I suspect the stuff you get from the turkish store is much higher quality! Organically raised does wonders for the flavour...

Just have to put em on a corn diet for about a week or two before slaughter, puts some good intramuscular fat in em; when combined with a relaxing cage where they can't run much the meat gets nice and tender with no gameyness. Yum yum.

...I like the way you think

What's wrong with Jelly Beans?

well, these particular jelly beans are a year and a half old that's gotta count for something

(if that doesn't make any sense to you, perhaps you should check the date on the post before yours ^^ )

just don't taste good enough to me for me to consider them being worth buying . .

There are other problems with soy-based foodstuffs...

These are worth it, it's to bad they don't really have a size comparison, but they are slightly larger than the the final joint of my thumb

This ... made me laugh

5 pounds of jumbo black jelly beans ...

I know what the kids are getting in their stockings for Christmas!

In this holiday season, remember the poor Shadowrunners who only have TofuTurkey™. Please support your local Shadowrunners!

Next time I have a street level game running I'm so having a run to steal real food for some holiday or other.