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ShadowDragon8685
Another edge case that came up, but one which is likely to be highly relevant to me in the near future, given how Black Hammer-happy my AI player is. (That's right, the one who responded to getting sniffed at with a playful analyze by making a kid's brains leak out his ears. Hopefully she's learned her lesson... But doubtful.)

Anyway, to make the situation clear... Suppose you and your buddy, a street samurai with Wired Reflexes 2 (so he's moving as fast in the meatspace as you are in the Matrix,) are camping in the wilderness. You have your commlink's wireless connectivity shut off, and the same is true of the connectivity of the Nexus in the truck you're connecting through and using as an Agent puppet; both you and the truck are getting wireless connectivity to the world at large by a portable satellite uplink dish you set up on the ground outside the truck.

Suppose you're noodling around in the Nexus when some mean mother-hubbard schlupps on in from the Matrix and starts attacking you in cybercombat. You, being a damn good hacker with a high-rated Biofeedback Filter up, are not immediately taken down by this, but you decide you don't particularly want to have your brains leak out. The Sammie is alert, also moving around with 3 IP a round, and not in VR, but is paying attention to AR.

You use a simple action to tell the Sammie you just got hit with Black Hammer and can't jack out, and tell him to do something. He responds by shooting the satellite uplink/cutting its fiber-optic cable with his monokatana/pulling the power cord on his next IP.

Now... What happens? There's no longer a wireless connection to the Matrix, so the guy who came onto your Nexus and attacked you gets to eat some dumpshock, as I understand it. But you... Your icon is fine. You weren't dumped from anything; you weren't actually in the larger Matrix, so you didn't get dumped out of anything, you were just in the local nexus - upstream from your commlink, but still isolated and local. Does the "jammed open connection" feature of Black Hammer still apply, and leave you unable to jack out, or does it get terminated with the lack of a Matrix "line of sight" to the guy that hit you with the Hammer? If it does still apply, does it trap you in a limbo state, or will it time out after a while?
Yerameyahu
Dumpshock. (Not for any good reason, just on principle. smile.gif )

I don't understand the point that 'the nexus isn't the matrix', though. Any persona presence is 'the matrix', AFAIK, but I'm more confused why you mention it at all. The scenario is that the remote Black IC connection is lost, right? And the defending hacker stays exactly where he is (connected from his commlink to the nexus)? So it's not a factor. :/

Seriously though, I assume nothing happens. If *you* weren't using the WAN connection, you don't care. It's an interesting question, because I'd never considered 'offensive' Black IC jamming open someone's connection. It's usually a defensive ploy. I hope someone else has a better answer!
UmaroVI
You don't take dumpshock but your connection is still jammed open.

Reason: you take dumpshock if you jack out - meaning, disconnect from your persona program - while in VR. You didn't do this; your persona program was running on your commlink, and you did not lose your connection to it.

Your connection is still jammed open because nothing happened to unjam it. It lasts until the black IC crashes, and you didn't crash it.

Note that this was more trouble than you needed to go to; you could have solved this problem with Change Linked Device Mode to simply turn the satellite link off.
ShadowDragon8685
So, you're stuck in VR indefinitely because you got tagged by a Black Hammer that can no longer reach or affect you?

That... Seems unlikely. It also seems like it would be the perfect way to murder someone - find him, tag him with Black Hammer (thus trapping him in VR) and then log off so he can't attack you. He'll be trapped in the Matrix, effectively a ghost in the machine, while his body withers and dies.
HaxDBeheader
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Mar 24 2012, 06:19 PM) *
So, you're stuck in VR indefinitely because you got tagged by a Black Hammer that can no longer reach or affect you?

That... Seems unlikely. It also seems like it would be the perfect way to murder someone - find him, tag him with Black Hammer (thus trapping him in VR) and then log off so he can't attack you. He'll be trapped in the Matrix, effectively a ghost in the machine, while his body withers and dies.


I would presume that the black hammer keeps running: it has partially infected your commlink (thus jammed open) and keeps executing its last command. On the upside it is running without a hacker helping it so it is effectively used by an agent rating 0.
Yerameyahu
That sounds pretty voodoo, which is to be expected for a weird situation like this. :/ I'm honestly not even sure how Black IC jams a connection in the first place? I don't know if there's a reason to go with something like 'partially infecting' the commlink. The program is definitely gone when the connection is lost, so we'd have to assume it gave some kind of command? As admin of your own link, you should be able to take an Action and remove that, possibly after having to find it? This is all novel territory, though, because the rules AFAIK have nothing about doing so.
ShadowDragon8685
Yeah, Black Hammer has always been kind of voodoo that way. You'd think that like, 24 years after Black Hammer was first introduced and a revolution in computing, the Black Hammer of today should have little to nothing in common with the Black Hammer that first came out of Lone Star's black labs. You'd certainly think that by now, someone would have come up with a countermeasure to the "lol you can't jack out, now stay there and get your brains fried; no switching your interface mode, either, bitch" bullshit.

It's just a way of making Black Hammer/Blackout extra voodoo, their whole "you get to jam open the connection" bonus. I mean, it's not like the Sammie gets a gun that roots the target to the spot so they're unable to flee, either.

(I mean, in addition to the normal effects. There are ways to stop someone from fleeing, but they're extra effort.)
Yerameyahu
It's not that it doesn't make sense for a node's defense (just 'don't allow X to log off'). It doesn't make sense as a *remote* effect, when it's not your node. Also, you'd think any node could do this to remote users, Black IC or not.
ShadowDragon8685
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Mar 24 2012, 01:39 PM) *
It's not that it doesn't make sense for a node's defense (just 'don't allow X to log off'). It doesn't make sense as a *remote* effect, when it's not your node. Also, you'd think any node could do this to remote users, Black IC or not.


I'm not actually sure how you could stop someone from logging off. They just stop accepting input from your node - what're you gonna do? Jack shit, that's what. It stops them from doing anything to you, but stops you from doing anything to them, too.
SpellBinder
I've always thought that in order for the jamming of a Black Hammer/Blackout program to work (regardless of how it's supposed to actually work, outside of game rules) the attacking icon had to remain in the same node as the victim. Once the attacker is gone, you're no longer affected.
UmaroVI
Black IC never really does worse than dumpshock you. You can always just jam yourself offline or whatever and take the dumpshock, unless you're being dumb and used some way of getting online that you can't cut off.

Note that in this situation, your connection being jammed open isn't the same as being stuck forever; it just means you must take dumpshock to log out. You can just keep on trying the Jack Out action till you make the roll, or turn off your commlink or jam yourself or any number of other ways of doing so.
HaxDBeheader
QUOTE (UmaroVI @ Mar 24 2012, 09:17 PM) *
Black IC never really does worse than dumpshock you. You can always just jam yourself offline or whatever and take the dumpshock, unless you're being dumb and used some way of getting online that you can't cut off.

Note that in this situation, your connection being jammed open isn't the same as being stuck forever; it just means you must take dumpshock to log out. You can just keep on trying the Jack Out action till you make the roll, or turn off your commlink or jam yourself or any number of other ways of doing so.


Yeah, my interpretation was compatible with this. Since the "locked online" portion doesn't kick in until it successfully hits you I presumed that reflected it partially infecting your commlink in a specific way versus a normal attack which would partially corrupt your system in a general way. The extra difficulty in manually jacking out would be a targeted side effect of the physiological effects of the Black IC/Hammer.

The thing that I'm mildly surprised about is that this "locked online" isn't a separable feature for any program that corrupts your commlink system (ie normal attack). Note that the lack of effecting your physical body would mean you would have an easier time manually jacking out (off switch or unplug). This would still help keep you online longer while trace IC/programs are run and you're unable to block them because you're busy defending yourself.

Hmmm...I'm getting ideas for a new house rule program option...Wonder who I'll get to introduce it into my game world: corp or uber-hacker? Maybe a thuroughly scorched barely sane technomancer...or sprite/AI? So many possibilities
HaxDBeheader
This reminds me: does anyone know if there is an attack program option that infects your system with virii and/or worms, especially if it is crashed? It just seems like the logical next step.

Maybe I should open a new thread on this.
HaxDBeheader
QUOTE (HaxDBeheader @ Mar 24 2012, 11:16 PM) *
This reminds me: does anyone know if there is an attack program option that infects your system with virii and/or worms, especially if it is crashed? It just seems like the logical next step.

Maybe I should open a new thread on this.


Think: corp crashes your icon; infects it with a worm that calls home when you turn it on again; and/or provides a backdoor to your system for anyone with the right code...

I like the idea but it would take some serious thought to not become unbalancing.
Yerameyahu
Viruses and worms (malware) are a separate thing in SR4. You could possibly make an attack/malware suite (or load them both into IC)? I forget the precise suite rules.
Warlordtheft
QUOTE (HaxDBeheader @ Mar 24 2012, 12:36 PM) *
I would presume that the black hammer keeps running: it has partially infected your commlink (thus jammed open) and keeps executing its last command. On the upside it is running without a hacker helping it so it is effectively used by an agent rating 0.


ANd it wouldn't take that long to crash the persona/agent that is wielding the black hammer.
Yerameyahu
But no one is wielding it, they're gone. Unless they loaded the program (and/or IC) onto your commlink, everything vanishes. :/
hobgoblin
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Mar 24 2012, 11:38 PM) *
Viruses and worms (malware) are a separate thing in SR4. You could possibly make an attack/malware suite (or load them both into IC)? I forget the precise suite rules.

Yea, that is one of the things expressly left out of the malware rules. There is no way to infect by way of a program. So you can't "love tap" someone with a slow or similar and use that to also infect them with something nasty that takes effect a few seconds later (at least not in any targeted fashion. You could in theory swing a virus infected program around inside a node and hope it may affect some other persona's programs). As for worms, they are basically custom agents with their "agent smith" blocker ripped out.
hobgoblin
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Mar 26 2012, 03:28 PM) *
But no one is wielding it, they're gone. Unless they loaded the program (and/or IC) onto your commlink, everything vanishes. :/

The only thing that would keep things going is if a agent did the actual attack, after being loaded onto the nexus node. It would still loose the control subscription to the attackers persona tho.
Yerameyahu
Right.

As for how and why the Black IC jam-open thing works… man, I just dunno now. I think the safest assumption is that the IC actively messes with your attempts, or (because it's on home turf) makes the node refuse you.
HaxDBeheader
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Mar 26 2012, 05:54 PM) *
Right.

As for how and why the Black IC jam-open thing works… man, I just dunno now. I think the safest assumption is that the IC actively messes with your attempts, or (because it's on home turf) makes the node refuse you.


Since normal attack programs explicitly corrupt your commlink System program (trying to crash it) and Black Hammer/IC don't jam-open until they successfully hit you I had always interpreted it as a specific targeted special effect of commlink System corruption. It is both consistent with the explicit and implicit description of what happens with both normal and black attacks.

If the Black IC/Hammer was influencing the node rather than the commlink itself it wouldn't need to hit you to jam-open your connection. The specific chain of "successful hit = jam-open" means that it is an effect imposed upon your commlink.
HaxDBeheader
QUOTE (HaxDBeheader @ Mar 26 2012, 10:01 PM) *
Since normal attack programs explicitly corrupt your commlink System program (trying to crash it) and Black Hammer/IC don't jam-open until they successfully hit you I had always interpreted it as a specific targeted special effect of commlink System corruption. It is both consistent with the explicit and implicit description of what happens with both normal and black attacks.

If the Black IC/Hammer was influencing the node rather than the commlink itself it wouldn't need to hit you to jam-open your connection. The specific chain of "successful hit = jam-open" means that it is an effect imposed upon your commlink.


As a further example: it is completely viable that Black IC could hit 25 hackers once each and every single one of them would have their matrix links jammed open. It could be functionally ignoring 24 of them and they would all still be jammed open.
Bigity
Dumpshock would be my vote. It has been the failsafe against Black IC for all editions. Someone else yanks the cord.
HaxDBeheader
QUOTE (HaxDBeheader @ Mar 26 2012, 10:40 PM) *
As a further example: it is completely viable that Black IC could hit 25 hackers once each and every single one of them would have their matrix links jammed open. It could be functionally ignoring 24 of them and they would all still be jammed open.


Inversely, you could stroll into an ultraviolet node with a disposable commlink (presumably to commit suicide) and yet you would not be jammed until the Black IC successfully hit you. If through some miracle it missed you 5 times in a row you could come to your senses and casually unplug. Node control is irrelevant; commlink stats compared to Black IC rating is irrelevant, the only thing that matters is whether the Black IC has successfully hit your persona.
Seriously Mike
QUOTE (Bigity @ Mar 27 2012, 12:50 AM) *
Dumpshock would be my vote. It has been the failsafe against Black IC for all editions. Someone else yanks the cord.

Yep, pretty much. I'd even say that Black IC is launched from a different node, so once the connection is severed it has no way to reach you. However, due to the connection being severed, you suffer from dumpshock too.
Thanee
You cannot log off, but you are not completely prevented from jacking out, it is just made difficult for you. If someone else jacks you out (which effectively is what happens here), then I don't see the problem. Dumpshock, as usual when jacking out, and that's it. The connection is immediately terminated.

Bye
Thanee
ShadowDragon8685
But you have not jacked out. That's my point. You haven't been dumped from the Matrix or from the node you were on, you're still in hot VR. There's just no longer any route from the machine the hostile IC/hacker is running on to you. They got dumped, not you.
Thanee
Ok, I see what you mean...

Hacker's Commlink is A, Nexus connected to the Commlink is B, and the BigBadWorldOutThere is C.

A --- B --- C

Hacker has moved from Node A to Node B. And the attacker came from C to B.

Now the Sammy cuts the B --- C connection, while some nasty Black Hammer is giving the Hacker a headache.


So, one question would be:

Is the Black Hammer shut down? If it is running from C, then yes. If it is running in B, then maybe not?

Assuming, that it is shut down, because it was run on the attacker's Node (which is located somewhere in C), then what happens to the Hacker?

Hmm...

I still think I would give him Dumpshock there, just because of the forceful disconnection from the Black ICE, but yeah, he would probably still be on the node.

Bye
Thanee
SpellBinder
I'd say the Black Hammer is shut down. Under the current scenario, the program would be running on whatever commlink the attacker is using, not the nexus (B). Once the (B --- C) connection is cut, there's no way the attacker's Black Hammer can influence the hacker. As the program doesn't cause anyone to suffer dumpshock directly the hacker can log off without issue, and likely would be doing so a second or two afterwards just to collect his wits.
ShadowDragon8685
I'm starting to think that the Black programs are simply overpowered in a way that does not make any consistent sense with the rest of the Matrix rules, and they remain that way simply as an artifact from previous editions...... Hrm...
HaxDBeheader
QUOTE (SpellBinder @ Mar 27 2012, 10:40 PM) *
I'd say the Black Hammer is shut down. Under the current scenario, the program would be running on whatever commlink the attacker is using, not the nexus (B). Once the (B --- C) connection is cut, there's no way the attacker's Black Hammer can influence the hacker. As the program doesn't cause anyone to suffer dumpshock directly the hacker can log off without issue, and likely would be doing so a second or two afterwards just to collect his wits.


OK, I revisited the book rather than just relying on memory:

SR4A page 237:
Once Black IC is used to make a successful attack on the target
(even if the hit does no damage), his connection is jammed open and
he cannot log off that node until the Black IC is crashed. Any attempt
by the user to jack out takes a Complex Action.


This seems pretty clear to me.
1) Breaking the link between you and the IC protects you from further attack (not a very controversial position but I wanted acknowledge that my earlier guess was inaccurate).
2) You are free to jack out again once the Black IC/Hammer is crashed; forcibly disconnected is effectively the same thing so you would then be safe.
3) This only works if you were attacked in the local node: you would have been prevented from moving to it by the "jam open" effect which clearly states that you cannot log off the node where you were hit by the Black IC/Hammer.

This means that corp hackers on their home node can safely log out once an intruder disconnects even if the intruder hit them with Black Hammer. If the corp hacker hits the intruder with Black Hammer on the corp home node, however, the intruder is stuck on the corp node until the corp hacker drops their Black Hammer (crash, log off, or possibly even unload Black Hammer from memory).

Note that this means that there is nothing preventing a corp hacker from tapping you with Black Hammer then going on the defensive while they or IC run a trace on your jammed open connection. Highly effective approach if you outmatch the corp hacker: put a huge effort into getting you jammed open then turtle up while you flail about trying to crash them.
HaxDBeheader
QUOTE (HaxDBeheader @ Mar 28 2012, 12:24 AM) *
3) This only works if you were attacked in the local node: you would have been prevented from moving to it by the "jam open" effect which clearly states that you cannot log off the node where you were hit by the Black IC/Hammer.



Mischievous thought: tense virtual meetup in a mutually hostile node; tag opponent with Black Hammer as a surprise hit but too tough to outright defeat so; set off alarms for mutual enemy's node and let their security burn them while you hide in a corner and laugh. It might hurt your rep unless it is based on being a conniving bastard but it could be very effective.
Yerameyahu
Ha! We are all stupid, thanks for checking the actual rule. smile.gif You're right: it looks pretty clear that the absence of the Black IC ends the effect. I mean, that's what people were saying anyway. It's nice when 'makes sense' and 'is RAW' match.
UmaroVI
QUOTE (UmaroVI @ Mar 24 2012, 11:20 AM) *
It lasts until the black IC crashes, and you didn't crash it.

I said the same thing a while back, I just pointed out that "crashed" and "not in the node" aren't the same thing. RAW, you can black IC someone, leave their node (which very definitely means your Black IC program did not crash) and they are still jammed open.

Is that RAI? Who knows, it's not like the matrix rules make any sense and Black IC is pointless anyways because it's trivial to forcibly remove yourself from the matrix; it really should just say "you take Dumpshock when you log off."
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (UmaroVI @ Mar 27 2012, 06:14 PM) *
I said the same thing a while back, I just pointed out that "crashed" and "not in the node" aren't the same thing. RAW, you can black IC someone, leave their node (which very definitely means your Black IC program did not crash) and they are still jammed open.

Is that RAI? Who knows, it's not like the matrix rules make any sense and Black IC is pointless anyways because it's trivial to forcibly remove yourself from the matrix; it really should just say "you take Dumpshock when you log off."


Well, I would say that since the connection was not terminated gracefully (You did not log off with the Agent/Spider/etc.), it crashes all connections when the wireless connectivity is forcibly broken. Semantics, I guess. smile.gif

I would agree that the end result is simply Dumpshock...
hobgoblin
QUOTE (HaxDBeheader @ Mar 26 2012, 11:01 PM) *
If the Black IC/Hammer was influencing the node rather than the commlink itself it wouldn't need to hit you to jam-open your connection. The specific chain of "successful hit = jam-open" means that it is an effect imposed upon your commlink.

Comlink, node, same diff...
Falconer
I don't see a huge problem... blackice provides the only way to lock someone down inside a node and even that is a pretty tenuous hold if they're willing to dumpshock themselves. Just glanced at SR4a but didn't the old one used to have some kind of willpower check to override it and still jack out?


Think how annoying cyber would be if your target kept jumping with no way to know where, when, or how long it'll be wherever once you've managed to fix it. Traces would be pointless.. without the ability to lock a user into a node running away would almost always be trivial. (as it's seen by just switching your signal rating to 0, or using a simple/free action to activate a failsafe cutting your cable).



The bigger problem is that blackice only works on VR connections... I'm not aware of a way to lock down an agent, AI, or sprite in place while you trace it down or otherwise try to detain it in a node.


Overall, I'd just say that the logic is weak, just because the rules say X and don't cover Y... Z must still happen. Common sense to me would dictate that the offending program is no longer in the node. So it can't keep the connection jammed open (or maybe only keep it open for Program Rating Combat turns) while you run off elsewhere to do things. (mostly only useful because nothing stopping target from logging into other nodes after getting blackiced... but combat in multiple nodes is pretty ugly... if he's already stuck in a known one... if you unleash an agent on your backtrail or the like).

SpellBinder
After being hit by a Black Ice, it's complex action with a Willpower + Biofeedback Filter vs. Black IC + Response test, with ties going to the Black IC. Failure means you can't jack out, and if you do jack out anyway then you're dumpshocked. SR4a, page 237. It also describes there a little bit on how a Black IC attack does what it does, subverting a sim & jamming the connection open, and preventing you from switching modes from VR to AR to avoid the issue altogether.

And from what I've read, yes, Black IC doesn't work on anything not using a sim module for a connection (personas in AR, agents, sprites, etc).
ShadowDragon8685
QUOTE (SpellBinder @ Mar 30 2012, 04:47 PM) *
After being hit by a Black Ice, it's complex action with a Willpower + Biofeedback Filter vs. Black IC + Response test, with ties going to the Black IC. Failure means you can't jack out, and if you do jack out anyway then you're dumpshocked. SR4a, page 237. It also describes there a little bit on how a Black IC attack does what it does, subverting a sim & jamming the connection open, and preventing you from switching modes from VR to AR to avoid the issue altogether.

And from what I've read, yes, Black IC doesn't work on anything not using a sim module for a connection (personas in AR, agents, sprites, etc).




So basically, it boils down to Black Hammer/Blackout get to have magical bullshit additional effects because if they didn't then anyone who was sane would say "screw this I'm not getting my brains leaked out of my head" and take measures to evade them?


I think I might just have to call bullshit on that. Evading a lethal encounter is part and parcel of the game. We don't give security guards ammunition that deals full damage and then roots the Street Samurai to the spot so he can't evade more fire.

Not, that is, that it should be impossible. But I don't like it being a free extra on top of Black Hammer/Blackout. I'm starting to think that "Jam" should be an attack program in and of itself that has to first hit, then gets resisted by the system's integrity (System + Firewall), its rating being reduced by the number of successes scored on System + Firewall (you know, like normal damage.) That number would set the threshold to make a successful jack out or not, and due to the rough nature of such a jack-out (basically ctrl-alt-deleting your brain,) I can see Dumpshock being fully applicable.

It would also let the target overcome the jamming by using the Purge program, possibly an extended test (Complex action,) needing to overcome a threshold equal to the Jamming rating remaining after the initial resistance test. If you overcome it completely, you purge the bad code, put your system back to rights, and can try to get the hell out of there normally with a graceful log-off or switch down to Augmented Reality mode.
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