Okay, so, here's a thought. Say that four runners, three Awakened and uncybered, and the fourth quite extensively cybered in the headware department, are suddenly confronted with a Phantasm (not a Trid Phantasm) of a fire-breathing, pissed-off Dragon.

The fourth one has Rating 4 cybereyes with all the trimmings, and an implanted commlink where things she sees can be recorded for posterity.

The description of Mana Illusions state that they ".. affect the mind and are ineffective against technological viewing systems like cameras." Technically speaking, this character's entire method of vision is cameras.

So, does the fire-breathing dragon show up to her, or not? I'm thinking it does, since she's a valid target for the spell, and it makes her believe she's seeing the spell - if she was a valid target but was viewing the scene in, say, a mirror, or from a screen, she would appropriately believe there was a dragon behind her/on the camera.


But, what about her headware memory. Does it record a Dragon, too? It is, after all, magically considered a part of her since she paid for it with Essence. But technically speaking, that Dragon is not there, it's not reflecting any actual light into the photoreceptors of her cyber-eyes.

I think it wouldn't, am I wrong? The dragon isn't actually there, she's just being mindfucked into thinking it is.

So, my question is, assuming I'm right, what happens if, during this encounter, she takes a moment to, via her image link, review the exact scene her eyes are recording from her headware memory, just a split-second ago? She's no longer conceptually "viewing" the phantasm, she's reviewing a photograph, kind of like taking a Polaroid with a nonexistent development time. So, while she' sees' that dragon out there, the picture-in-picture instant replay is showing a fat lot of nothing. At this point, with any sort of magical theory in her at all (and living with three Awakened people, you tend to pick this kind of thing up,) she should recognize that she's fallen victim to a mana illusion.

Is the illusion automatically broken? Or is my conclusion spurious to start with?

I'd say everyone is scared as hell and runs.
In other cases, RAW says that cyber senses paid for with essence are considered regular senses so far as magic goes. So, same goes for this. Running it on a delay like in a WOD game doesn't beat it. Cause it's magic.

edit > The Vampire power Obfuscate is uber, but can be defeated by security screens running off of the recorded image from the security camera, rather than "live".

I believe this is why Trid Phantasm exists. While the Cybereyes are paid for with essence, they are most certainly cameras. You might affect the character's mind, but they'd be getting contradictory information from their eyes.

But if you use Trid Phantasm, then it's not a problem, because Trid Phantasm affects electronics. Ditto for Improved Invisibility.

Viewing your headware memory might reveal a (non-trid) illusion, but it would probably also eat up at least a free action, possibly even a simple action, and it wouldn't break the illusion for the character's "real-time" sight. Trying to get around this by, say, having a micro-second delay where the cybereyes record, then play back, the scene, would probably result in some kind of penalty. Your actions will be slightly out of synch, and keep in mind that a combat turn is only about three seconds long.

Illusions are tricky things to adjudicate.

IMO:

As a mana spell, it affects the minds of the individuals viewing it. Whether their own flesh-and-blood eyeballs, or their cybereyes, view something there or not, their minds perceive that there's a raging dragon there.

Physically, there's not much difference between an eyeball and a cybereye: they both take in light rays, and converts them to neural impulses which the brain then interprets.

The mana spell alters the viewers minds to think that there's a dragon. I might say that running their eyes on delay would give them a bonus to resist, but they'd take a penalty to initiative. Once the spell ends, or anyone else not affected by the illusion, who viewed the recording would see them all freaking out at nothing.

The physical version of the spell actually creates light/sound/heat/etc., so would affect cameras/recording normally.

I know that Trid Phantasm creates an optical illusion which fools sensors, that's exactly why it's a Phantasm and not a Trid Phantasm.


As an aside, what happens if, in a fit of insanity, you decide to astrally percieve/project? Spells, even mana spells that can work on the Astral plane, don't cross the barrier, only functioning on the plane on which they're cast, so if you looked in the Astral, you wouldn't see a dragon, but you would see a gigantic active illusion spell. Likewise, what happens if you attempt to attack this "dragon" with a spell from the physical, trying to draw a spell line of sight to something that isn't really there?

Oh, I know you did. I'm just laying out the reasoning behind my argument about why the mana version would affect someone with cybereyes. Namely, that by affecting the individual's mind instead of their cybereyes directly, they see the same illusion despite it being a mana spell.

I think perhaps, in both the astral projecting and image delay scenarios, the individual should quickly realize something fishy is going on. Whether or not they then realize it is an illusion might depend on which they believe is wonky: that it's not appearing on the astral/on their playback, or that it's actually in front of them. Hence a bonus to a resist test (and potentially a large one), but not necessarily immunity.

How about stuff like radar or ultrasound?

I'd expect radar or ultrasound to reveal the illusion for what it is, unless the sensor is sending its information directly to the brain. A visual overlay via an image link is likely the most common thing to do for these sensors among cybered characters and NPCs alike.

As for astrally perceiving an illusion, right from SR4a, page 191, "Without attempting to read an aura, a magician can still get an impression of what type of aura it is (spell, spirit, living creature, etc.)." Just looking at an aura should tell you it's a spell, and not something else. Two or more hits on an assensing test should blow it out of the water that you're looking at an illusion.

This precise scenario hasn't come up in my games but I would adjudicate it as: The camera records the physical image but as long as the illusion is still being maintained your mind will overlay what it's being told to see over top of reality whether it's live or has a delay. If you review the recording once the illusion ends you will see what was really recorded.

This is the unpleasant flip side to cyber-eyes working to cast spells out of (looking at you, cyber-mages); their integration into your aura makes them vulnerable to some things they normally wouldn't be. Speaking as someone who has played a mage with stacked cyber-eyes I think it's a fair trade.

Agreed: as long as your mind is affected, your mind is affected.

Interesting, I always thought cyber-eyes would only be affected by physical illusions. Perhaps this is a throwback to SR1 days, will have to check the spell description again ...

Any mana illusion basically bypass the senses, going straight to the mind.

The thing about radar and ultrasound is that both are active (tho can potentially be run in passive if there is a nearby active source, like for spotting motion detectors). They radiate specific kinds of energy and then listen for a echo, assembling a representation of what is out there based on that echo.

Normal eyesight, even thermo, basically samples existing energies, be them reflected (that is what gives something its color after all, in that the spectrum not absorbed is reflected away) or radiated (just about anything active gives off heat above and beyond ambient).

The problem here is, that if it were like that, cybereyes would not allow magicians to target spells through them either.

Therefore, they decided to have cyberware (which become a part of you and your "Essence") count as if they were "natural", basically.

Bye
Thanee

1. Roll their resistance tests (add counterspelling if the mage is being smart or you consider that SOP) secretely, then describe it based off of what the PC believes to be reality. Remember the phantasm affects all senses.

2. In case of the basic phantasm spell, the PC percieves it in all the senses including vision, but the recording of it would show nothing. If it was trid phantasm, it would show up (assuming it beat OR).

Actually, back in the SR1 day optical cybereyes were fine for mages but electronic ones weren't. All mages got optical cybereyes, and were therefore able to channel the mana through them. Thermographic and low light mods to optical cybereyes were also fine in this way.

I stand corrected for SR4A, although I would agree that anyone with cybereyes who ducks behind cover to review the camera image will be able to see through the illusion; as noted ultrasound/radar/motion sensors would similarly be unaffected.

You can get into some funky situations if get hit with a mana illusion while you have something like threat assessment agent software monitoring your cybereye video feeds.

You'll be seeing one thing, and the agent will be AR-marking other things that don't appear from your point of view to be there. Like a rough outline of a dude might be appear in your field of vision, with AROs indicating carried weapons, combat notes, etc. but it's apparently overlaying nothing.

You, of course, might be the victim of a mana invisibility spell. Your agent would be unaffected, so it quite correctly would marking an approaching mana-cloaked threat. Do you conclude that you're ensorceled, or that the software is having a glitch?



-k

The correct answer is to shoot everything. Only way to be sure.

That's pretty much how I see it.




Heh heh. The Mage would taking some risk Astrally perceiving rather than powering up a manaball, just in case it's an illusion!



Aye, always an option.

I guess I'm in the minority here.

If the phantasm affected sight and sound then I'd say the runner with cyber-eyes wouldn't see the dragon but would hear it. So everyone else would see a dragon while the person with cyber-eyes would hear an "invisible" dragon. If it affected all senses then even if they had cyber-ears they would feel the heat of the flames etc. I'd leave it up to the player to determine for his character if he just happened to fail a check to see through the "dragon's" improved invisibility spell or if it was an illusion.

Things like ultrasound etc could influence that thought process towards illusion and away from "I failed my test everyone else passed".

I think the point is that an illusion affects the mind and not the senses. So it more fools the mind to believe something is there when it's not. The trid version does the same but to technological 'minds' too. Cybereyes are still connected to an organic brain, which is affected by the basic version of the spell.

Except for me the cyber-eyes cannot perceive it because its a machine. It seems to me the same logic would apply to a blind man, he'd suddenly see the dragon even though he has no method of seeing that would detect it which just doesn't make sense to me.

Would someone wearing non-optical glasses/contacts/goggles be affected by it? Its not a part of them but still records the image and then displays it back to them so it seems like they'd be immune.

I still think it would affect their mind, I just don't think that senses that cannot perceive it would feed in that portion of the illusion, something that a player can easily explain away with an improved invisibility, silence spell, etc.

Think of it more that the spell tells the mind "there is a dragon up ahead!", and the mind fills in the blanks related to the various senses available.

And biological eyes cannot perceive it because nothing is atually there to perceive. Which does not matter at all, the brain can perceive things without a stimulus that would normally trigger this perception. We call it "hallucination" when no magic is involved...

In which case I'd view it as a form of mind control. So reviewing the image would still show it to you as you're still under its effects (assuming the spell is still sustained).

I think the part in the illusion description that says "Some mana illusions affect the targets senses directly, others affect the senses of anyone perceiving the subject of the spell" is telling. If you don't have the sense then that sense cannot be targeted (a blind man won't suddenly SEE the phantasm dragon). Likewise a cyber-eyed person has a technological sense so it cannot be affected by the spell either. They'd still get info from their other non-technological senses though that may cause them to draw the wrong conclusion.

Except that the whole point of cybereyes is that they count as natural. The spell affects (for example) 'natural vision', so it affects eyes and cybereyes, but not blind men.

Maybe I need the relevant text quoted to me as I thought it was more for someone else targeting. So then if a person had non-optical contacts/goggles would they not see the phantasm dragon by that reasoning?

If by 'non-optical' you mean 'non-visual'? I didn't give the full explanation, so I might have misled you, but the basic idea is this:

A mental illusion (let's say, Invisibility) affects the mind (directly) with respect to their visual senses (which cybereyes count as, because they're Essence-paid). For the equivalent Phantasm, it does the same thing: something is added to their 'mental' visual senses. While I don't see why a blind person necessarily can't experience that (it's the same as simsense, to me?), a blind person isn't going to be *fooled* by the image of a dragon.

A person using visual sensors is still getting visual info in their mind, so AFAIK the illusion still affects that. *This* is something of a gray area, so I'm only saying this is one interpretation. You can kind of choose which one to use: basically it's either (only drones are really affected) or (any use of a sensor beats Phantasm), and both of these are workable.

When I said non-optical I meant digital. I think on looking at it again for SR4A that only applies to the zoom so it was a needless addition there on my part.

That interpretation seems fair as it remains consistent (affects blind people, affecting people through visual sensors). I personally would go with the latter one but you've explained the former one sufficiently well for me to understand it, thanks.

Read the full description:
Mana Illusions: Mana-based illusion spells affect the mind and are ineffective against technological viewing systems like cameras. Mana illusions are resisted by Willpower + Counterspelling (if any).
Some mana illusions affect the target’s senses directly, others affect the senses of anyone perceiving the subject of the spell (though the spellcaster is not affected by her own spell).

Given the highlighted part, I'd say it is rather clear that affected part of the sense is not the receptors, but the mental part of sensing. This alone would mean that a blind person is affected as long as the visual cortex is intact.
However, there also is the last part: If the spell is not aimed at somebody directly (i.e. an Area spell), it affects "anyone perceiving the subject of the spell" -- so the spell is cast somewhere, and everybody who looks at that area or is in earshot gets the appropriate illusion implanted via his eyes or ears. But somebody who can't look at the area will only get the audio part of the illusion, no matter whether he can't look at it because he is behind a wall or because he is blind.

I did read the whole description without adding emphasis to only a single portion of the sentence. I read "if A and not B" and we're kind of in C territory which isn't described well by the rules. Yes A by itself makes C obvious, but the "not B" portion makes me question it. And then there is trid phantasm which would easily handle the case at only 1 drain higher.

Also you'd have weird edge cases like mages performing Entertainment spells on live trid and anyone watching it then can see it (because they can see the area) but it can't be recorded so then you don't have to worry about someone copying it to sell. Or metahumans watching a feed through a camera or a rigger looking at a feed on his drone seeing the phantasm. And if you argue that they wouldn't see it due to those being not essence paid sight then someone wearing glasses with a digital zoom or else just tied into his smartgun's camera would also not pick up the visual element either (or else would have an instant litmus test that its an illusion when it only appears on his cyber-eyes and not the smartgun camera).

As I said Yerameyahu's description of the issue lets me understand the other side as valid, its just not how I'd interpret it personally. I don't think further discussion will cause me to change from the personal viewpoint that both interpretations are valid I just am siding with a different one than most.

Yep, people wearing electronic glasses will not see it, same as the guard at the CCTV monitor.
People watching simultaneously with their own eyes and some technical system will (IMO) see it, because looking at the spell's AoE with your own eyes means the Phantasm is in your brain.
Alternating between "natural" and "technical" vision will reveal that one of the two is manipulated.

If cybereyes count as natural vision, then technically you're always better off buying Image-linked goggles (or even contact lenses) instead. You aren't paying essence for them, and with image link they're clearly processing what you're seeing before you see it, so a Phantasm would read as false.

It makes no sense that cybereyes would cost more *and* be mechanically inferior.

Image-link just means the goggles overlay AR visuals over your field of vision, not that it acts as a personal viewscreen.

I suppose you could buy goggles that do that, though.

Cybereyes have inherent advantages that goggles/glasses don't.

That's just true in general, though: you're always better off buying the non-implant version of anything (except for mages). That's just how things are: cyber sucks when there's a gear equivalent. You can't have cybereyes count as natural *and* artificial, depending on when it helps the player. I mean… you can (you can do anything), but it's an obvious metagame intrusion, that's all.

It would read as "inconsistent". But how do you know whether the glasses or your brain is being manipulated?

Interesting quandry: mage effecting your mind or hacker effecting your glasses. If you guess wrong you probably bleed...

Imagelink can send any data into a window of your vision. This includes a video feed from your friend's cybereyes or imagelinked contacts/glasses/goggles. There's no reason you could just loop your own video feed into your imagelinked contacts; the delay would be negligible, and you'd have a ridiculous (but RAW-friendly) loophole that would prevent you from falling for Phantasms (you're still boned on Trid Phantasm, though).


This is why I say it's just easier to assume that cybereyes automatically see through Phantasm, and why SR3 was right to be specific about whether vision cyberware and gear was optical or electronic in nature.

You can secure your PAN to the extent that trusting your sensors when your eyes are telling you something ridiculous is a pretty safe bet.


Oh, and the trick I described above would still work for cybereyes, since they also contain cameras. Basically, any time a person is looking through an electronic lens in Shadowrun, it's retarded to assume that Phantasm would work on them. As soon as they have a viable reason to be suspicious, Phantasm has failed at its job.


Just learn Trid Phantasm instead, and suck up the extra drain. If you shorted yourself on Willpower as a mage, you have no one to blame but yourself.

Sure, just like you can shell out for kickass astral security. But the point is that detecting an illusion with image link glasses is not a trivial matter.

Yes, it IS a trivial matter. Hiring astral security to follow your Shadowrunning ass around is prohibitively expensive, and/or dependent upon you knowing a mage. Securing your PAN costs a few thousand nuyen. So yes, detecting a non-Trid illusion with image linked eyes/glasses/contacts/whatever is completely trivial.

And again, in Third edition this wasn't even an issue; if you had electronic (rather than optical) vision, mana (as opposed to physical) illusion spells didn't work on you. Period. Nothing in 4A specifically contradicts this, so I fail to see why it should be assumed to be different now, especially given how trivial it is to defeat Phantasm with artificial vision.

I do not recall the optical vs electronic distinction ever affecting illusion spells as claimed, because they affect the targets mind not his eyes, ears, smell or other senses. Anyways, a blind person do not lack the neurons normally used to interpret images. What has happened instead is that they have been re-tasked with processing other senses, leading to the classical case of blind people having impressive hearing. This may be different if the person grew up seeing but lost sight later on. But that that point one is starting to move into such rule pedantry that is likely rocks starts falling from clear skies...

Not if you want to make it hacker-proof, probing hacks mostly everything.