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Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Arethusa)
what do you feel would best reflect realistic shotgun lethality?

I'm not really qualified to answer that... And there's so much stuff that should really be considered if you really wanted realistic shotguns that Shadowrun doesn't touch. That said, I feel that both the 10D numbers I gave at first (10D/8S/6M/4L) or the -1DL/3 chokes system both are realistic enough. I'd be more concerned with firearm penetration if I were you. wink.gif

QUOTE
if you were going to stick to variable choke

Now this I absolutely cannot comment on, because I've come to hate the variable choke too much. That, and there's so much Remote Control Network crap floating around my brain that it feels like I'm about to *pop*.

QUOTE
Out of curiosity, you don't already have rules for semtex, by any chance, do you?

I found a source which seems reliable enough, which says: "For all practical purposes, Semtex is identical in composition and function to the American-made, NATO standard C-4." Which is new information to me, too, because I've never really known just what the heck Semtex is. In any case, I guess that means there are no rules necessary for it.

And for weapon weights, well, I do enforce encumbrance and fatigue. Which reminds me... The following is straight out of my Medieval Shadowrun Rule-Set, and may or may not be applicable:
Over Str x 5kg up to Str x 10kg, a character has +1 TN on all Quickness-related tests and Athletics, -1 Quickness for movement speed, -1 run modifier, gains Light Stun every (Body x 20) minutes.

Over Str x 10kg up to Str x 15kg, a character has the above modifers as well as modifiers as from a permanent Light Stun wound while encumbered, cannot run and gains an additional Light Stun every (Body x 5) minutes.

Over Str x 15kg up to Str x 20kg, a character has the above modifiers but a permanent Moderate Stun instead of a Light Stun and gains an additional Light Stun every (Body) minutes.

Over Str x 20kg, a character has the above modifiers but a permanent Serious Stun instead of Moderate and gains an additional Light Stun every (Body x 5) CTs.
Arethusa
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
I'm not really qualified to answer that... And there's so much stuff that should really be considered if you really wanted realistic shotguns that Shadowrun doesn't touch. That said, I feel that both the 10D numbers I gave at first (10D/8S/6M/4L) or the -1DL/3 chokes system both are realistic enough. I'd be more concerned with firearm penetration if I were you.

Penetration's not really bothering me. The rules you suggested seemed to make about as anemic as it should be against armor. And I'm not interested in realistic shotguns, per se— far too many varieties of shells, barrels, gauges, etc— but I would like to get as realistic as I can while maintaining a level of abstraction that cuts out everything not in 12 or 10 gauge as extraneous.

QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
Now this I absolutely cannot comment on, because I've come to hate the variable choke too much.

Why the hate, out of curiosity?

QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
I found a source which seems reliable enough, which says: "For all practical purposes, Semtex is identical in composition and function to the American-made, NATO standard C-4." Which is new information to me, too, because I've never really known just what the heck Semtex is. In any case, I guess that means there are no rules necessary for it.

Far as I know, from most sources I've read, while the two are practically similar (and even quite similar in composition; they only differ by one similar chemical compount), semtex is cheaper but less stable, while C-4 is more stable, more expensive, and favored by military types. Semtex is mostly used commercially. What I had been unsure of was reports of semtex being more malleable and, in fact, malleable to the point of being able to braid string out of it that looked convincing enough at a casual glance. This is probably just myth, though. As it stands, probably not much reasont to include it.

QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
And for weapon weights, well, I do enforce encumbrance and fatigue. Which reminds me... The following is straight out of my Medieval Shadowrun Rule-Set, and may or may not be applicable:
Over Str x 5kg up to Str x 10kg, a character has +1 TN on all Quickness-related tests and Athletics, -1 Quickness for movement speed, -1 run modifier, gains Light Stun every (Body x 20) minutes.

Over Str x 10kg up to Str x 15kg, a character has the above modifers as well as modifiers as from a permanent Light Stun wound while encumbered, cannot run and gains an additional Light Stun every (Body x 5) minutes.

Over Str x 15kg up to Str x 20kg, a character has the above modifiers but a permanent Moderate Stun instead of a Light Stun and gains an additional Light Stun every (Body) minutes.

Over Str x 20kg, a character has the above modifiers but a permanent Serious Stun instead of Moderate and gains an additional Light Stun every (Body x 5) CTs.

Either I'll run with these numbers or I'll create a separate system for fatigue (basically, a stun damage track that doesn't dissipate without extended rest); not sure which people would prefer, and I'm open to ideas. These numbers do seem good, though.
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Arethusa)
Penetration's not really bothering me.

With shotguns, there's no worries. But might I inquire as to how you are planning to deal with the Ares Predators Penetrate Better Than Assault Rifles Syndrome? biggrin.gif

QUOTE
Why the hate, out of curiosity?

Partly because you have to very extensively modify the basics of the idea to get it to make any sense -- the spread area is broken, -1 TN per choke range is broken, keeping DL the same is broken. Mostly, though, it's just pure irrational rage.
Arethusa
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
With shotguns, there's no worries. But might I inquire as to how you are planning to deal with the Ares Predators Penetrate Better Than Assault Rifles Syndrome?

Simple .75 multiplier against impact armor for all rifles, additional .5 (bringing a rifle with AP ammunition to .25 multiplier) for AP ammunition. Not sure if these numbers are accurate, but they seem simple enough. Just a toss off idea, though, so could go any direction. Shotguns basically wouldn't get access to any this, with the exception of genuine flechette ammo, which would instead drop damage code a level. Not sure if I'd want to run with that, either, though.

QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
Partly because you have to very extensively modify the basics of the idea to get it to make any sense -- the spread area is broken, -1 TN per choke range is broken, keeping DL the same is broken. Mostly, though, it's just pure irrational rage.

Heh. While I do agree that the -1 TN per choke range is silly, as is the damage level not changing, the core idea of variable choke is something I feel suits Shadowrun fairly well. I'd kind of like to keep it in rather than simply get rid of it, if possible, though it would at least be a simpler mechanic with it out.

[edit: typo in the first response; definitely meant ballistic, not impact]
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Arethusa)
Simple .75 multiplier against [Ballistic] armor for all rifles, additional .5 (bringing a rifle with AP ammunition to .25 multiplier) for AP ammunition.

Probably meant Ballistic. Since you don't have any actual numbers ready for the Powers or armor ratings, I can't tear it into pieces yet. grinbig.gif Seriously though, I'm sure it can work out. I suggest keeping 0.5x/0.25x for rifles and 1x/0.5x for pistols a possibility if the numbers allow for it. That's close to Raygun's numbers, and seems more realistic at first glance with the kinds of Powers I'd expect to see. But, again, what ever works out with your numbers.
Arethusa
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator @ Apr 15 2004, 07:19 PM)
QUOTE (Arethusa)
Simple .75 multiplier against [Ballistic] armor for all rifles, additional .5 (bringing a rifle with AP ammunition to .25 multiplier) for AP ammunition.

Probably meant Ballistic. Since you don't have any actual numbers ready for the Powers or armor ratings, I can't tear it into pieces yet. grinbig.gif Seriously though, I'm sure it can work out. I suggest keeping 0.5x/0.25x for rifles and 1x/0.5x for pistols a possibility if the numbers allow for it. That's close to Raygun's numbers, and seems more realistic at first glance with the kinds of Powers I'd expect to see. But, again, what ever works out with your numbers.

In terms of weapon powers, expect much of it to stay the same. Heavy pistols will still be doing the classic 9M, assault rifles will still be doing the classic 8M, and battle rifles will be doing 9 or 10S. Same for shotguns. As for armor, again, may be splitting up into hit locations, but expect the numbers to stay about the same. Rewriting a lot of things, but I still want to preserve the notable elements of canon.

I'll think about starting assault rifles at .5, but I'm a little worried that it doesn't offer enough differentiation between standard ball and AP ammunition. Then again, maybe it just shouldn't.

One thing I am curious about, though: my plans for frangible ammunition is to basically allow bouble ballistic but stage up the damage against targets with more than one point of ballistic armor. I'm less ure of where to go with AP in terms of making it deficient as far as damage goes. Is dropping a damage level too much?

[edit: apologies for typos and lack of clarity and lack of sleep; for shotguns, my plans are to stage up the damage unless the target has more than one point of ballistic armor; distinction between 'more than' and 'one or more' is important]
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Arethusa)
my plans for frangible ammunition is to basically allow bouble ballistic but stage up the damage against targets with more than one point of ballistic armor.

You mean stage up against less than 1 point of Ballistic? No objections there.

QUOTE (Arethusa)
I'm less ure of where to go with AP in terms of making it deficient as far as damage goes. Is dropping a damage level too much?

If you keep the armor ratings and Powers at what they are, it probably is. We'll just fudge it by saying that FMJ/Ball ammunition in the future doesn't deform or fragment one bit. I think the majority of dumpshockers won't notice. biggrin.gif
Arethusa
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
You mean stage up against less than 1 point of Ballistic? No objections there.

Good lord, having trouble talking. I meant that I'd stage it up if the target were unarmored or the target had at least two points of armor. I kind of wanted to allow shotguns to defeat very low levels of armor. Not sure if this is a good idea or not.

Can't seem to get what I want to say out on three hours of sleep for two days and little food. Damn brain don't function without fuel. Stupid thing.

QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
If you keep the armor ratings and Powers at what they are, it probably is. We'll just fudge it by saying that FMJ/Ball ammunition in the future doesn't deform or fragment one bit. I think the majority of dumpshockers won't notice.

Not necessarily a bad approach, but I would kind of like to create a reason to choose ball over AP, which seems to be hard to come by. Ironically, a drop in power might be the way to go. I'm not really sure. And, good point. They probably wouldn't. But that's assuming they even notice this project at all, which, judging by the fact that this thread has basically been you and me for 75% of its length, is not exactly outside the realm of possibility.

Yeah, you heard me. If you're not me and you're not Austere and you're not posting, you're not nice!
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Arethusa)
Good lord, having trouble talking.

You mean writing? nyahnyah.gif

QUOTE
I meant that I'd stage it up if the target were unarmored or the target had at least two points of armor.

I'm not sure I do get this. You mean you are contemplating whether you'll use Ballistic-1 or Ballistic-2 as the level below which the Damage Level of frangible ammunition is raised by one? Or something else?

QUOTE
Can't seem to get what I want to say out on three hours of sleep for two days and little food. Damn brain don't function without fuel. Stupid thing.

I hear ya. It probably doesn't help that we're both in almost the same state. biggrin.gif I make these posts semi-coherent by posting, checking, editing, checking, editing, rinse and repeat 20 times. It's amazing, the crap that sometimes passes Quality Assurance.

QUOTE
Ironically, a drop in power might be the way to go.

It certainly might, and if you go with 0.75/0.25 it is a good solution. Of course, with my rules... J/K wink.gif Yeah, with 0.75/0.25, 1/0.5 and -1 Power with AP ammo it works out pretty well.

QUOTE
But that's assuming they even notice this project at all, which, judging by the fact that this thread has basically been you and me for 75% of its length, is not exactly outside the realm of possibility.

It's always like that... The thread where my system really got started was 40 messages of Crusher Bob and me exchanging multi-page tables and Interesting Gun&Ammo Facts™. I think most dumpshockers just stand aside silently while we duke it out, and then afterwards decide what to do with the results.

It's probably a good idea to do a separate thread or two once when you get the idea to the next level, and the next, etc.
Arethusa
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
You mean writing? nyahnyah.gif

Yeah, I... I mean, I uh.. I. aww.

QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
I'm not sure I do get this. You mean you are contemplating whether you'll use Ballistic-1 or Ballistic-2 as the level below which the Damage Level of frangible ammunition is raised by one? Or something else?

Sorry I wasn't clear. Slightly more awake now, so, basically, against an unarmored body or a body with a ballistic armor of 1, shotsguns still stage up and still do crazy damage. I wanted to give shotguns the ability to punch through very light armor, basically. With armor at 2, they stay at Serious and have to deal with 4 points of ballistic.

QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
I hear ya. It probably doesn't help that we're both in almost the same state. biggrin.gif I make these posts semi-coherent by posting, checking, editing, checking, editing, rinse and repeat 20 times. It's amazing, the crap that sometimes passes Quality Assurance.

Well, at least it's not just me. And at least I'll get to sleep seminormally tonight, so, with any luck, this thread'll get clearer tomorrow.

QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
It certainly might, and if you go with 0.75/0.25 it is a good solution. Of course, with my rules... wink.gif J/K  Yeah, with 0.75/0.25, 1/0.5 and -1 Power with AP ammo it works out pretty well.

Heh. Would love too, but they're just too far from canon. Not for this, anyway. As for AP, I was actually thinking -2. I want to make it significant enough that there's reason to use it on the stuff, but enough reason to not use it when it isn't necessary.

QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
It's always like that... The thread where my system really got started was 40 messages of Crusher Bob and me exchanging multi-page tables and Interesting Gun&Ammo Facts™. I think most dumpshockers just stand aside silently while we duke it out, and then afterwards decide what to do with the results.

It's probably a good idea to do a separate thread or two once when you get the idea to the next level, and the next, etc.

Oy. I was really hoping for more community input on this, but if that's how it's going to be, I guess that's how it's going to be. And, yeah, will be starting a new thread and condensing the stuff that was resolved soon, assuming nothing picks up here.

All of you reading this and not responding? Yeah, you all still suck.
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Arethusa)
with any luck, this thread'll get clearer tomorrow.

Not a chance! It's 6:36 AM and I've still got lots of Coke.

QUOTE
I wanted to give shotguns the ability to punch through very light armor, basically. With armor at 2, they stay at Serious and have to deal with 4 points of ballistic.

OK, that's pretty much what I thought. I think it's a very workable solution.

Anyway, you've got a far better chance of getting some attention from the community than my system ever had. With the way it was presented from the beginning, I don't think most readers ever had a clue what the hell I was going on about. This set of rules/fixes won't have that problem.
Crusher Bob
Semtex is a 'brand name' of a type of plastic explosive manufactured in Chezchoslovakia (sp?) during the cold wars, plenty of it was sold overseas, given away, or 'lost'.

In composition and effectiveness it is almost identical to the American C-4 (also a 'brand name', well actually a military specification, and not a general explosive type).

TNT is abbreviation of a chemical explosive C-4 and Semtex are simply brand names of plastic explosives. The actual explosive used in C-4 (and, I would assume, Semtex as well) is RDX.

Of course refering to your explosives in games as 'plastic type, RDX, high quality' dosen't have much ring to it.
Arethusa
Actually, that's not all right.

Yes, TNT is an abbreviation trinitrotuolene and is a chemical.

Semtex is a mixture of PETN, and a couple other things (antioxidant, plasticizer, and binder). It is noticably less stable than C-4, which resulted in C-4 becoming the explosive of choice for the military.

Composition C-4 is a mixture of RDX and very similar incgredientsto semtex.

I just realized that there'd be no place for a cheaper, more acquirable variant of C4 that just happened to blow up in your face occasionally because there aren't rules to handle explosive volatility.

And, yeah, lots of semtex did come out of Czechoslovakia and there's a reason it's basically the explosive used by terrorists. You'll also see it a lot in third world militaries.
Crusher Bob
Hmm, is it has PETN then theoretically it can be set off by sudden shock. The plasticiser probably mitigates this...

According to some googleing, Semtex is some mixture of PETN and RDX.

(from http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Semtex)

Semtex H Semtex A
PETN 49.8 % 94.3 %
RDX 50.2 % 5.7 %

Arethusa
Seen those figures. Semtex H, to my knowledge, is not seen much, and I just didn't bother mentioning the 5.7% of RDX.

And, yeah, sudden shock supposedly can set it off, even with the stabilizers. Or so many stories indicate, anyway.

For one last go, going to repeat my earlier questions, just in case anyone missed them and feels like actually responding instead of mebing mean like most of the people here! So,
  • Any complaints about creating a new class of pistols and SMGs? I specifically had in mind creating medium pistols to bridge the gap of uselessness between Light and Heavy, as well as explain where SMGs and their 6M damage ratings are coming from. And, as for SMGs, a Heavy variety using Heavy pistol damage, naturally. (I know, Austere commented, but I'd like so more feedback on such a potentially drastic change)
  • Any takes on rewriting the crazy weapons (narcojet, flamethrower, etc)?
  • Any suggestions for potentially altering damage codes and behavior of anti vehicular weapons (GD ATGM, etc)?
  • Any suggestions for alternatives to the canon +1 power per round, +1 damage level per three rounds? Emphasis on this one.
  • Any suggestions for alternatives to searching fire's allowance of essentially only one round hitting? Not necessarily crucial; the stagin modifications help ameliorate this.
  • Any suggestions for a more realistic alternative to hardened personnel armor?
  • Any issues with melee combat that should be dealt with?
  • Any potentially decent rules for gun reliability? I don't really want to touch this one in a canon replacement, given the likely inherent amount of work, but I'm not averse to an elegant solution, assuming there is one.
  • Grenades don't work. Need to fix them. As has been said, you and a grenade should not buddy the fuck up. It should explode and you should motherfucking die. Specific number suggestions would be very much appreciated.
  • Suggestions for reworking custom ammunition types and possibly adding new rounds (Spellshot's in, and I don't care what you say) are welcome.
  • Still looking for a good solution to autofire.
  • Any opinions on working in a fatigue system? Basically, something to work more or less like stun, only this only wears off with rest. Not sure if it's too drastic to be worth it as anything but an optional rule.
  • How's +12 for blind fire? +8 just seems like far too little. You can't motherfucking see, and you are not operating precision artillery.
  • I would like to put together some rules for saturation fire. Perhaps something similar to suppression fire but working a little differently for target slection and over range?

Come on, just a little community response. That's all I ask.
Crusher Bob
Sigh, but I wanted to talk about puppies! nyahnyah.gif


For grenades, you can try using two different grenade damages at the same time. The concussion, which armor will not really protect against. and the fragmentation effect which armor will protect against very well.

As a quick number (fiddle actual numbers after testing)
A defensive grenages might do 6S -2/meter concussion with little/no armor allowed
and 10S(f) fragmentation with -1/meter.

An offensive grenade has the same concussion damage, but reduced fragmentation effects.

This give a few nice effects, (like letting you use the explosive wave propogation (chunky salsa) effects, without chanting to yourself 'this is soooo stupid' all the time. (only the concussion wave reflects, the fragments just lodge in the walls)..

For gun reliability you can try different colored dice. Use say 3-5 different colored dice whenever you shoot something, if they all come up 1s then you have a incident.
Arethusa
You know, initially I was turned off by the added complexity, but that really does make things work a lot better. Unfortunately, 10S(f) doesn't really reflect the lethality that they should have, to my knowledge. Could be wrong, though.

As for gun reliability, I'm just not seeing it happening, and especially not for the approach of this project, despite how much I'd like to see it. But there are far bigger problems, so I guess it's not a huge loss, all things considered. Not sure what you meant by different colored dice, though. Or, specifically, not sure how it would have an effect.
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