I've got an interesting situation. I'm introducing a new group to Shadowrun. Up til now, I've been player in a couple of different games run by various members, and for the most part things go well. There is one player, however, that has zero interest in actually role-playing, but instead just prefers to come up with total min-maxed combat builds for games. The rest of the group is putting together more well rounded characters, and so are not a problem.

Here is my dilemma. The player mentioned above basically wants to make a combat mage, I also suggested a totally cybered samurai to him. However, since he doesn't know the system well, he's attempting something that won't really succeed well in that capacity. This means that he likely won't have fun, and will do his best to drag the rest of the group away from Shadowrun. So far, he's resisted my advice about what he tried to put together. In order for this game to succeed with this group, I need to find a way to keep him interested and give him something he'll like playing, but without blowing the power structure out of the water for the rest of the group. I know I could take the hard-nosed approach of, "I tried to tell you that wouldn't work," but that doesn't help the rest of the group have fun as he tries to drag the game down.

I think my best bet is to present him with a few characters and tell him, "I see what you were trying to make, and I am worried that the way you have tried you will find it isn't going to work as well as you think. Here are a few examples of what I think you were trying to do. You don't have to use any of them, but you can if you like, but hopefully they can give you some ideas to better create the character you were going for."

I've got some ideas of my own, but I'd be curious to see a couple of options from the DS community. At it's core, we are talking about a combat mage, he seems hooked on Chaos mage with no mentor spirit. Because I'm trying to get his character viable, but on a comparable level of the rest of the party, I would like to keep the character's top tier dice pool(s) to the 12-15 dice range, and I don't want to do a power focus.

What I would really like to give him is some sample pure combat mages, and some samples of augmented combat mages.

Thanks.

Have you tried telling him WHY it does not work like that and how what he wants WOULD work? O.o

I know it seems a little cold, but is there any reason you can't just boot him if he becomes a problem and refuses to get his act together? Or is he intrinsically tied into the group somehow?

Yes, I have.

Basically, this is a guy that thinks he knows everything, likes to do things his way, and has in the past used tantrums to make sure that things go his way. When I, and others, tried to show him how some of the things he was thinking didn't work he just chose to talk over us and ignore us; something he often does if he feels someone is telling him he's wrong. I'm actually not very fond of him, but as I'm the newer guy in the group and I do enjoy playing with the rest of the members of the group, I'm just trying to find a way to help him enjoy himself enough that he doesn't try to kill Shadowrun for everyone else. If I didn't have to think of how it would affect the other players, I would simply say let him fail then rebuild something once he saw first hand how it didn't work since he didn't listen, but as I mentioned in past games instead of learning and rerolling he's whined enough to kill games. One other player in the group has a personal loyalty to this guy, otherwise everyone else would have gotten rid of him before.

This is why I want to give him a few so that in his mind he can be the man behind the power of his character, something important to him which is why I know he won't play any of the examples I give him. Higher dice pools will be something that appeal to him and give him a reason to actually look at it. If he knew the system, he'd be someone to try making things like pornomancers, or augmented adept shiva arm machin-gun gun bunnies, or other ridiculous one-trick pony concepts that have large dice pools.

As I said, the dilemma is trying to give him examples, but not get him trying totally over the top right now. If I can give him examples in the 15 dice pool range he'll be something of a badass in the group, able to get some things done, but not totally over the top compared to the rest of the group.

How about you give his character a test drive? Present him with situations that are likely to arise, and have him play a few of them out. If they don't go how he likes, offer to help him improve his character.

Or just give everyone the option to respec after a couple of sessions.

This is fairly common practice (in my experience) whether someone's this sort of problem-player diva or not. Folks who're new to a game should get a few sessions of "test drives," in my opinion, to help them (and the GM, for that matter!) learn what they're capable of, to see how their stats meet their concept, etc, etc. Heck, even Missions campaigns let you change stuff after your first session, y'know?

So let the guy play with his character as-is. Run 'em through Food Fight or some other fairly shallow, combat-heavy, stuff and let him see whether his mage is any good. Then, offer to help him with a few tweaks to make it a better character, if that's what you think is needed (and if he's had his eyes opened).

Personally, I always prefer to address these sorts of things with the advantage of having their character in-hand. That way I can keep the feedback focused on actual points/issues with the build and not as high-level amorphous suggestions.

Also, the character creation process can be an educational one, so if he's already willing to make his own character, take advantage of that, he might be more receptive after trying it for himself.

It's distinctly on the exotic side, and my original concept was for a Healer, not a combat Mage ... but I do have a Pixie spellslinger with DPs of 10 for spellcasting and 14-16 for drain. (7 Will, 7 Charisma, Shamanic tradition).

Yes, I have every intention of allowing players to tweak and adjust what they are doing.

Yes, I understand that this is an opportunity to try to teach the system, and having something in hand is key, that is why I'm looking for ideas to have in hand (along with his original idea).

I'm not looking for social solutions. I've gamed with this guy before, and I've gotten input from the other players and gms in this group as to the best way to help him out.

The fact is, he isn't the kind of guy to adjust if things aren't working well and won't want to rebuild or make a new character; he'll simply give up on the system and then try to drag the group down. If he see's things as working, just not quite according to plan, then he's willing to adjust. This is why I need to help make sure he's got a character that can work, even if it doesn't wind up being exact at first, rather than let him totally struggle through a bad test drive. I'm looking to create the balance of helping him up front with what he wants to play so that he is then willing to adjust if things aren't quite what was expected.

I appreciate the ideas, but these are things I've considered. This is why I'm looking for somewhat tweaked up, but not totally overpowered, build ideas.

Alright, can you give us what he's got right now so we have something to work with? It sounds like you'd have the best luck making a design thats very similar to his(albeit effective), so he ends up feeling like he contributed.

Well, it's tough to tweak what we haven't seen yet, which is why all we're offering is vague philosophical advice.

It might not be a problem. Combat mages tend to be fairly effective even if they're not super min/maxed. What is he doing that is making the character so ineffective?
There's a list of characters somewhere on here that might be helpful, I forget who made them.
Edit: Search UmaroVI his list of archetypes might be helpful.

That, Critias, and our natural reaction is revulsion to the idea that the non-awful people all have to sacrificially accommodate this one person's total dysfunction.

What's the *best-case* scenario here? He does zero roleplaying, but is quietly effective (super-effective, because he *only* likes minmaxing) so that he manages not to ruin it for everyone else? And someday he ceases to exist? :/ (This is fine if it's true. We all understand the difficulty of roleplaying-group-management. I'm just checking what you're going for.)

Honestly, my response would be to give him the boot - and if the one player who is personally loyal to Mr. Problem goes too?

Sometimes, to get rid of a cancer, you have to cut away some HEALTHY flesh, too.

It seems like that's not an option, though. So I'm just asking if the goal is to keep him happy and quiet, or if he's trying to actually fix him (subtly).

This! Almost exactly. Just without the "someday he ceases to exist" part since he's part of this particular established group.



Let me finish tweaking what it is that he has already started and I'll post it.

What I was hoping to get were some other effective combat mage builds that I could use as an example so that he could see viable ways to get what he's looking for. This type of min/maxing isn't natural for me, so I came looking for other ideas. I wasn't specifically looking for how to tweak what he tried to put together, but instead for alternatives I could give him so that he could see ways to minmax to his own flavor.

I've tried to stop making "give 'em the boot" my initial advice in this sort of situation, because social groups are complicated things. We're only getting one side of the story, we're only getting that side while someone's upset (or at least frustrated) about something, we don't know how the rest of the group gets along with the troublemaker-guy, and we do know just how many gamers have some real issues with real-life social confrontations. Telling someone to cut a gamer out of their campaign may be telling them to get rid of, like, 20% of their actual face-to-face human friends, y'know? It might not be the right thing to do, it might be really tough for them, if they do it the whole campaign might blow up in a drama nuke, and even if it all works out, the odds are good they've lost a friend (or at least acquaintance). It's easy to suggest that a person be cut from someone's life like a cancerous tumor, but...well...for some folks, it just ain't an option, or at least it's surely not a feasible one.

So, y'know. Yeah. I try to leave that part just sort of left unsaid, like the last-ditch response it should be, and try to offer other advice, first.

Please understand, I'm not upset or frustrated right now. I actually concur with you, and I'm just trying to be proactive to prevent a problem. Yes, you only have my side of the story, but hopefully you see that what I'm trying to do is prevent a potential conflict.

I actually tend to agree with you completely that saying just cut them is often not the answer and not one that will work in this case. I don't know this player's other social circles, but he does fit into the awkward gamer personality type. I have tried to stress, that I didn't come looking for ways to deal with the social issue or conflict with another gamer. I specifically am looking for samples I can use to help make things work better for everyone. The only reason I gave any background is because I know that many of the people here, and in other gaming communities, have dealt with players that just want to min/max and can be a bit challenging at times; this is the information most relevant to anyone that might have a sample that I can use since I know that many of the people here have played with people that have a similar approach to gaming.

Oh, no, no. No. It's cool. I'm not calling you out specifically, or anything like that. I was just explaining why I try not to respond to any sort of thread like this with "fuck it, cut the bastard." Or, at least, why I try not to any more. I'll cheerfully concede that culling someone from a gaming group often is the right answer (my own gaming circle did so, less than a year ago), but I was just sharing why I, personally, try to make it, like, my second or third suggestion, not my first, when it comes up on forums.

"Nuke it" shouldn't necessarily be the first response to a problem, after all. So I try to go out of my way -- in this thread, or any other -- to offer some other stuff, and leave the "...or they're out of the group" as the "or else" after all else has failed.

yeah, didn't mean to be unhelpful. the only combat mage build I have in my dossier currently is a power focus build (which I actually rolled for a very similar social situation )wherein the player still managed to knock out with drain in the first round of his first combat because he went back and nerfed his own drain attribute for some reason and then thought THROW FIREBALZ was a legit strat))

Well, just give us a quick run-down of the characte he built - did he pick a specific metatype, for example? (There's aleague of differnce between an Elf combat mage, and an Ork or Troll combat mage). Doesn't have to be the whole build ... just some of the thematic high points, so we can get with his overall style.

And, how about some limits from your end? D'you care if some of the builds slid your way are Infected? What about a Drake, or a Shifter?

Oh, god, give the confused non-roleplay player an exotic race/subrace?

Eh. He's not going to RP much any way you look at it. So honestly, being a Shifter (with "uncouth" - hey, free points for the non-RPer) would let his lack of RP actually BE roleplay. Similarly, a taciturn, aloof Ghoul mage would turn his non-RP into "appropriate IC behavior".

And the min-maxer in him should appreciate all the mechanical benefits, especially attribute bonusses. The physical attribute bonusses would let him "cheap out" by 10 or 20 BP each. And that +2 Willpower Ghouls get, helps with Drain (and picking one of the Will+Intuition traditions sidesteps the penalties to Logic and Charisma).

After I tweaked it a little bit, here is what I've got.

Human Chaos Mage that grew up on the street and pulled from bits of pieces of other traditions to hone his magic.
Bod 3
Agi 2
Rea 3
Str 2
Cha 2
Int 3
Log 5
Wil 5

Magic 6
Edge 2

-------------- All of the above is unchanged from his original concept

Magican
Focused Concentration x2 (He originally wanted Focused Concentration and Aptitude Spellcasting)

Astral Beacon (His only chosen negative quality)
Uncouth
Bad Rep
Poor Self Control Braggart
(I added the last 3 for points and because I was thinking like Pax regarding Uncouth, the player loves to brag about game successes, and he didn't want to take social skills)

Arcana 2 (He wanted 4 so he could to his own spells, I hadn't had the chance to explain how long that actually takes when we last met)
Assensing 1 (I added this)
Binding 4
Counterspelling 4 (He originally was torn between taking this separate or as a group. Given the street concept, and his original desire to get Aptitude Spellcasting I broke it up and left off Ritual Casting, which another player in the group will have)
Dodge 3
Perception 1 (I added this)
Pistols 1 +2 Semi-Automatics (A suggestion he took from me instead of pistols 3)
Spellcasting 6
Summoning 4

Armor
Combat Sense
Heal
Levitate
Physical Barrier
Power Bolt
Stunball
Trid Phantasm
(All of the above were his choices, with some input from me. The drain value of some and the number of sustained combat spells was part of my concern for the character. I added the following)
Increased Reflexes
Manna Barrier
(These seemed inline with what he was already doing, and for a combat mage Increased Reflexes is SO useful)

His original approach left him with 2 bp for money/gear and the free 8 bp I give my players for contacts. My changes freed up a few points which I then bought and bound 3 Rating 3 Sustaining foci for him in addition to the 2 bp left for other gear. If he's determined to buff himself for combat purposes, I figured go a little crazy with foci so he can sustain some and try to keep him from the negative dice pool spiral I saw him headed towards.

Having help sustaining things, increasing his spellcasting, and his focused concentration should help him out a bit and isn't far removed from his original idea. If some of you see other ways to tweak or modify it, then those are other examples I'd use. I also want to try a sample or two where he's maybe done a point of ware. Perhaps one that augments things like his drain stat and other bumps that help in being a true combat mage. Another I'm thinking is a point of other ware and perhaps go with his desire to cast buff spells and make him a gun user that buffs up as an example. These are just brainstorms though.

Why don't you want him to have a power focus? That would basically be the first advice anyone would give him. 4 free dice to everything!

If you want some examples of combat mages that aren't bad, look at the first link in my sig and the Burnout Combat Mage and Magical Rocker for cybered and non-cybered examples. They do use power foci, but you can remove them if you want (although it's not actually a good idea); if you do you should probably increase Summoning some at the very least.

For an example of a gun-user that buffs themselves, check out the Transhuman Mystic.

Not having a mentor spirit is a very, very poor choice no matter what type of mage you are.

Focused Concentration is very inefficient; it's overpaying for a little more drain resist.

Being a non-cybered logic mage is moderately inefficient.

I think you have more than 35 negative quality points. Uncouth is a really painful quality; it also makes you automatically lose in opposed social skill checks. Uncouth isn't Jayne, it's Rainman. If you want Jayne, that is Incompetence(Etiquette).

When do you see this character actually using pistols? He is really not good with them and he's focused on combat spells. If you really must carry around a nonmagical weapon, Heavy Weapons and an ArmTech MGL-6 with Airburst Link loaded with stuff like Flashbangs, Thermal Smoke, and DMSO+Narcoject chem grenades is a better move since it's far more effective in the hands of someone who isn't very good with weapons.

Armor, Physical Barrier, and Mana Barrier are not good spells, for the following reasons:

Armor makes you glow. This is asking for it.

Physical Barrier is just not very good at doing its job. It's very easy to shoot people right through transparent barriers. Metal Wall is a much better spell because it is opaque (although it is more drain).

Mana Barrier is just super narrow in application.

A combat mage without Stunbolt is a very bad idea. He should really know stunbolt. It is the bread and butter combat spell.

If you want to replace Armor, Increase Reaction is a much much better buff spell in every way.

Being a "combat mage" with an initiative of 8 and a body of 3 is not a really good plan. Going first is highly important. So is not dying when everyone shoots you.

All of that is exactly why I came here for other examples. I've said from the get-go that this guy is trying to put something together that isn't going to be very functional at the role he's shooting for.

I tried to explain stunbolt. I only got him to drop pistols to 1. He didn't want to take off focused concentration. I prefer real armor to armor spell. I understand that going first, and more often is FAR more important than Combat Sense, but that was ignored advice. The player wouldn't even look at mentor spirits. In some ways, the idea of 'he did it all himself and doesn't need outside help' is similar to the way he takes advice on characters. If I can show him his concept, next to my slightly tweaked version of his concept, next to actual solid combat mage concepts I think I can get him to tweak and build something that he will enjoy playing.

In truth, I could be open to the idea of him taking a Power Focus, the issue is that the other mage, one with a well rounded fully thought out character has one and a reason for having it. I didn't want to make that player feel like this guy is just playing the combat only version of his character since he has put some thought and work into his concept. Perhaps I can look to see if I can get the other character a Restricted gear version so that this guy can also have something as well.

I will look into your samples.

The issue with power foci is that bonding foci after chargen has totally different costs than bonding one during chargen. Buying a force 4 power focus, including bonding, restricted gear, and nuyen, is 29 BP. After chargen, it costs 32 karma just to bond it, and you still have to afford (and find) it. Sustaining foci have different ratios (2x rather than 8x karma multipler) (and there are really good reasons to want a higher-force sustaining focus) so it's more useful to start with the power focus and buy the sustaining foci later (although one for Increase Reflexes is still a good plan) rather than vice versa.

Sounds like he's sticking with his concept even when it's not the most powerful thing. Maybe he's not such a terrible Min/Maxer?

He should definitely take a specialization within spellcasting. Given the character, combat probably makes sense.

I know most people steer away from them, but fetishes/limited spellcasting give a +2 to resist drain from the spells, so it might be nice on some of the higher drain spells. With the two focused concentration dice he's looking at 14 dice to resist drain, so 4-5 hits on average and he won't knock himself out in a pass or two casting stunballs.

Also, since it seems like he's not actually interested in the astral plane at all and didn't even want Assensing maybe he should play a mystic adept? It saves 5 on the quality and 1 point in powers could give him some useful abilities that would make him better in combat and gives him some room for future growth. It's not the most efficient route obviously and it will limit his spellcasting a bit, so he might not like that route. Or he could even just keep all 6 points in magician and just lose astral perception/projection. It would also keep him from stepping on the toes of the other mage in the group astrally.

I think the character you presented will compete just fine if the rest of the group are not playing anything with dice pools over 15. Even a bad mage is pretty competitive.

I think you meant 2 free dice. Power Foci have an availability of "Rating x 5", you can't start with one at Rank 4.

The problem is that when it doesn't function as powerful as he sees it he'll blame the system as being a poor system and he will mope. I'm just trying to help him get the character he wants to play.


You can get rating 4 with Restricted Gear.

He seems to grasp the concept of skill + Attribute needing to be high for his main schtick. The missing factor is dice pool modifiers; not as big a deal since you are trying to keep dice pools comparatively low. I can see someone not taking mentor spirit. The power focus, I am a bit dubious about your reasoning. Disallowing it because another mage has one is like saying "No, this street samurai can't have a smartlink too, the other guy already has one!". If he is forgoing a mentor spirit (which I can actually sympathize with - it gives +2 dice, but can also come with annoying disadvantages, and gives the GM a killswitch for your magic if you don't follow certain precepts). If you give him a specialization and let him have a Force: 2 power focus, his dice pool will be 16 in his main spell category, 14 in non-combat spells. That isn't too unreasonable.

The main tweaks would merely be changing his spells around a bit (he needs a low-Drain spell like stunbolt or manabolt that he can use again and again; an area-effect spell would also be a good idea, and improved invisibility and levitate are both almost must-haves). Improved reflexes and some decent worn armor should keep him alive, at least.

Think about that for just a moment. A Rating 4 Power Focus costs 100,000 - that means, 20BP. Then bind it for 4BP. Oh, and Restricted Gear is another 5BP. So you're spending 29BP for that R4 focus.

Or an R2 costs 50,000 (or 10BP) and 2BP to bond, for 12BP total.

You're spending almost 150% more, for those extra dice.

IMO ... not worth it. At all.

Opinions differ. I'd never use Restricted Gear, for anything, but if you're trying to 'beat the Karma system', the numbers work out differently. *shrug*

Oh, I'd use Restricted Gear - if it made especial sense, or if the item in question was just too good for the character's "style". Like, if I wanted to make a sniper who was a "mafia hitman" stype, the Ranger Arms SM-4 would be a really good match, just in the sense of "bbreaks down and fits in a briefcase" sense. Yet it's a 16F weapon; either Restricted Gear, or go without. (And numerically, the Ares Desert Strike is so close it's hardly worth differentiating between the two.

It just strikes me that it's not worth the extra 17 BP to go from an R2 to an R4 Power Focus. At least, not most of the time, yes?

If you want to break it down to pure numbers:
Rating 2 is 6 bp per dice bonus
Rating 4 is 7.25 bp per dice bonus (125% of rating 2, but also just over 1 bp more).

Compare that to the cost of a dice in spellcasting, summoning, and binding (nevermind the benefit of busting a barrier) at 12 bp per dice and that rating 4 focus with restricted gear is pretty appealing. Just give me a good background reason for that focus and the restricted gear.

Back to original topic, aside from UmaroIV, does anyone have any builds I can use?

Caadium beat me to it, but yeah, "saving" 1.25 points per die just to go and dump those points into something with a far worse exchange rate is an exceedingly goofy idea and yet people seem to implicitly argue for it all the time when they question Restricted Gear but give taking multiple magic linked skills over 1 a pass. The worst thing about a power focus is that you can potentially lose it and it counts against your focus limit. Beyond that they're just a great value proposition.

The build you posted seems fairly good to me - with soft-maxed attributes and Focussed Concentration, he has good drain resistance; with Increase Reflexes spell and a (presumably Health-specific) Sustaining Focus he can get 3IP without sustaining penalties; he has a good range of spells, including the single target powerbolt and multi-target stunball as combat options ... what's the problem?

Hmm, I had never looked at it in quite that way. Thank you.

honestly your walking a fine Line ... so allow me to provide a completely DIFFERENT Line of Thought ...

IMHO Let him make the character like he wants ... it NEVER works to suggest a different concept to someone who has their mind set on something .... its like teaching a pig to Sing

it frustrates you and annoys the pig

sooner or Later one of 2 things is gonna happen ...

A) hes gonna realize hes nearly useless in the design he wanted

B) he'll overestimate his abilities ... overcast something BIG .... and kill himself

or C) the most optimal case ... he actually Learns to Role play ... and that not every situation can be solved by the barrel of a gun (or the Wrong end of a mana stream)

I assume the sustaining foci is Keyed to Health spells for Increased reflexes ?

Instead of Pistols Id go with automatics .... at worst he could drop sustaining fire when his Fatigue is Really high

also on the Power focus 4 ... 29bp(Cash + restricted gear + Bind) vs 100k+ 32 Karma to bind ... ya

Actually, I do that really often. It's pretty much my job.

then you must have a really high negotiations pool ... or the people your dealing with don't have a high pool with a specalization in fast talk

I think it was more along the lines of:

"I know the system, here's how to make the concept you have work better in the rules and still be true to your vision."

I have to do that with my group all the time. Especially with Shadowrun where there are lots of options like that. It was a lot more difficult. We had characters retire after a couple of sessions (one in particular, who played an unenhanced negotiator and an unenhanced redneck dwarf with a bow) and realized that he might need some help to not be bored in combat.

Yes, it needs to read as advocacy rather than showing off that your shadow-fu is best. There's also definitely some truth to the notion that wraith put out insofar that it's easier to bring someone around to your way of thinking when the person you're advising at least suspects that they're already settling.

First: I'd try really, really hard to talk him into using "Increased Reflexes". It's as simple as that: Does he really want to fire only one spell against a tougher target (say, augmented law enforcement personnel with a gun) who can fire six bullets his way in the same combat round?
Also, stealth. Brute force isn't always an option. Trid phantasm works pretty well in that matter, but without a skill it might still get messy.
Are you really sure about your reasoning abut the power focus? It's not as if those were the exact line between some stupid wizkid and a wizard who has seen the world, especially not in regard of power. That bonus to basically everything is nice, though. But do you really want to not tell the guy with inferior roleplay about a way to improve his character just because of that? As a GM, I'd try to even help building characters I certainly would never like.

My personal opinion: Combat mages are like axes. They can pretty much chop anything down, but that's all they do. Aside from that: All optimizations UmaroIV mentioned, some might fit.

Compare the cost of 29bp to the cost of magic 6 @ 25.

While 25bp seems like a hefty chunk, you get WAY better dice pools for only four points more if you do magic 5+power focus 4.
Also, 4bp is a BARGAIN price compared to the cost of binding power foci in play.

Where it really makes a huge difference is for Mystic Adepts. Its basically worth the price on them, because it makes their casting as good as a magicians even if they are power-point heavy.

Comparing the cost of a power focus to the cost of magical skills or the Magic Attribute is missing the point. You aren't getting the power focus instead of those things. You are getting it in addition to those things. Sure, those 29 build points have to come from somewhere. But more likely, they will come at the cost of a bit of the character's versatility, rather than his magical abilities. Whether that is worth it depends on the character concept - a focused combat mage would probably take it, while a magical private eye might have too many points invested in other things to contemplate the expenditure.

It may be a moot point for this particular argument, since you are trying to keep this guy's dice pools down to a certain level. On the other hand, a modest rating: 2 power focus, at 12 build points, is probably better than having a hard-maxed Magic rating, and would free up some points, as well.

Looking at the build again, I noticed a few things:

1) I understand the player doesn't like using social skills so low Cha + Uncouth kinda fits his style, but is he prepared to live with the flip side of being easy to get conned/intimidated/otherwise browbeaten socially?

2) No Infiltration! Makes him more of an overt runner than a shadow runner ...

Also you may really want to stress how terrible uncouth is. It means you automatically fail every test, and will never be able to negotiate for better pay (guess what skill THAT is!)

Its surprisingly really really harsh when you discover what Untrained does, and how often you roll social tests, especially opposed ones.

If you want to play a kind of jerkish asshat, I strongly suggest Incompetent: Etiquette instead and pointing your players towards the runner's companion quality section to make up the difference in points.

Incompetence: Etiqette does not have much to do with being a jerk. Lacking etiquette simply means that you will never fit into a group you do not belong to. You will for example always bow not low enough to the oyabun, or never bow at all or neglect to wear a hat in a synagogue or whatever. Etiquette is more like social disguise/infiltration than politeness.