Games are more interesting when the GM makes bad things happen anyway.
Personally, I don't care if my characters die. When I play, I switch characters frequently anyway. Like, if they don't die, I make a new character anyway, because I get bored of them quickly. So, you know...even better if the character, like, explodes in a dramatic manner. It's just brownie points before I move on.
Full Version: How do you move your guns?
There's never a reason not to reload. Just keep the partly-spent magazine, as it's better than nothing should it come down to it and if you get some spare time you can consolidate partly-spent magazines.
~J
~J
Or just reload them.
Also, it's a simple, concealable action to check ammo on a smartlink capable gun. As you get an ammo counter in your field of vision.
Also, it's a simple, concealable action to check ammo on a smartlink capable gun. As you get an ammo counter in your field of vision.
| QUOTE (Arethusa) |
| It's so damn simple in theory. |
And practice. All it takes is ditching the god complex mentality and treating the players like the friends they should be.
As for the reloading, I'm talking about watching a character run around for half of an adventure with an empty magazine, because he forgot to reload after the firefight.
I realize there are a lot of variables when it comes to the GM helping out the characters, but I also feel they should be free to lead their own lives, mistakes and all.
I also forgot about the ammo counters for Smartlinks, but in this particular example I used, the character didn't have one on the pistol in question, so it would have still been a physical check.
I also tend to be more like Wounded Ronin when it comes to my own characters. I still have a bunch of pre-made characters I build when I'm bored, and like to try something new fairly often. Sometimes I don't even wait for my current character to die, I just have the GM turn him into an NPC, and keep him in the storyline.
I realize there are a lot of variables when it comes to the GM helping out the characters, but I also feel they should be free to lead their own lives, mistakes and all.
I also forgot about the ammo counters for Smartlinks, but in this particular example I used, the character didn't have one on the pistol in question, so it would have still been a physical check.
I also tend to be more like Wounded Ronin when it comes to my own characters. I still have a bunch of pre-made characters I build when I'm bored, and like to try something new fairly often. Sometimes I don't even wait for my current character to die, I just have the GM turn him into an NPC, and keep him in the storyline.
| QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein) | ||
And practice. All it takes is ditching the god complex mentality and treating the players like the friends they should be. |
If always treating people like friends should be treated was easy in practice, I dare say the world would be a much better place to live in.
| QUOTE |
| I had a GM once who did things like that, like ... 'You didn't state that you locked your front door (or car), so all your stuff is gone.' After several episodes of this happening (not necessarily to me and my character), I left. |
That is just sick, twisted, and wrong. You then end up with a game where instead of actually playing, you have a bunch of guys going around worried about whether they forgot to tie their shoes or not... I would've left, too.
Though, I did see an instance where a character just happened to wake up in an alley as a squatter was rifling through his pockets...
Long story...
| QUOTE (Austere Emancipator) |
| If always treating people like friends should be treated was easy in practice, I dare say the world would be a much better place to live in. |
It helps to actually play with friends (and continue to treat them as such), or at least people you're compatible with. Basically, I'm just saying that GMs shouldn't go around with a stick up their ass and think of the game as "their" game. That, more often than not, is what ruins a game in my experience.
| QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein) |
| It helps to actually play with friends (and continue to treat them as such), or at least people you're compatible with. Basically, I'm just saying that GMs shouldn't go around with a stick up their ass and think of the game as "their" game. |
And with that I completely agree.
As do I.
I agree fully with Doc, as I was saying earlier.
To answer the questions regarding whether I would tell the players, in some fashion, to reload or similar concepts of actions.
No. I wouldn't.
That action has no bearing in the concept.
They haven't done anything "dumb" yet. They are simply running around on empty. There's no problem in that. There is a problem when they try to fire, however.
Now...when that moment comes, am I going to make them pay dearly for not reloading? No.
I'm going to simply roll the dice completely indifferent.
And if they hold their weapon up to fire it and it's a semi-auto, they'll do a perception test as a free action with half their dice to see if they realize that the chamber is in the back position because it's on empty. (this is just my way of doing things...I add in small rules like this on a whim in my games)
If it's a revolver and they are threatening someone with it, the target will roll a perception test to see if they notice that the revolver is empty.
If they don't then the threats from the player character may work even though it's an empty gun and they may not know it.
And then, if it's empty and they pull the trigger in a fight then it goes as it goes.
*Click!*
Anything that happens after that is completely up to their quick thinking and the dice.
I'm not going to change anything I had planned from 5 minutes ago (I say this because I don't plan my sessions out in detail. I make them up as I go; a few steps ahead of what's going on so that it fits the session more correctly and to size.) so it's not going to suddenly be the worst and dumbest thing they could have done unless the fate of the dice just say that it isn't their day.
What I was saying about helping players out wasn't meant with the idea of giving them an extra hand where they should know what to do.
In my experience, unless the player is a very seasoned player (like Doc, Kage, Fortune, Shadow, and others...) I assume that it's an easy miss-understanding for a player to forget a vivid visualization of their characters surroundings.
That they may not be thinking about the hot dog stand 50 feet from them, the paper stand behind them, the little poodle being walked by the old lady, the bus driver taking a smoke break, the steam from the morning street rolling around, the taste of the bitter cold morning, the glare of the mid-morning sun in winter, the church service across the street that just got out, the crows on the phone wire above, the cabby who's in a squabble with a short change customer...
Things of his nature can be forgotten when you make a character who's goal is to be the ultimate nightmare for shadowrun combat.
It's easy, in my opinion, to forget that SR is not a "game", in the lolly-pop sense of the word, but rather an immense world with real characters and thickly realistic atmospheric reactions to characters actions.
All I try to do is determine when a player might have forgotten that and when they haven't.
If they seem to me to have forgotten the world they are standing in, I'll help remind them very subtly before they do whatever it is they want to do by simply doing one of the following (sometimes more depending):
-ask, "How are you...?" (this asks them how they're going to do something and makes them take a moment to possibly realize what they are doing when they have to think of how to do it.[you never realize how you tie your shoes until you cripple your hand and have to figure out how to do it. Then you realize exactly what it is you are doing.])
-saying simply, "Ok" and taking a brief moment as if studying something or I'll switch over to another character for a moment and let them think about what they just said. (this gives them a moment to actually think about what they are doing rather than spouting it out. Sometimes all they need is an actual moment to think to realize what they are about to do might not be a good idea.)
-the classic intelligence check. Sometimes, their character would just simply know better. To have them have a sudden relapse into retardation because the player lacks the information on that kind of character MO can sometimes make for extremely awkward moments that don't make any sense.
[Your explosives expert who has trained with the military just said that he's going to tap the nitroglycerin bomb because the wiring isn't working right.
This is a classic example of a player who doesn't know anything with a character who would fully well know better than to do this.
If he fails the roll...perhaps he should stop thinking about naked women on the beach while working.]
-and sometimes...just once in a while, I'll straight out ask, "Are you sure?"
This is rare, but it's basically two things.
1) a double check to see if they are clear on what they are saying and are aware of what they are about to do and it's consequences because the ramifications will be very dire if things do not go the way that they are thinking (whatever that may be...but hey...they may shock me with an idea I hadn't expected! Which will get them extra Karma later.)
2) a warning to let them know that what they just said may have very, very dire results that they may not realize are much more probable than they may think is possible.
--------
That's pretty much it.
It's not handing the game to them.
It's making sure they are making the move that they actually want to be making, whether it be the right or wrong move.
I just like my players to make moves that are educated.
I like my players to trick me.
I like them to play a chess game in the SR game and win the move.
I like seeing my players play clever.
So if they seem like they're going to do something based off of bad assumptions, then I try to give them a chance to open up their eyes and see that their assumptions may not be as certain as they thought they were.
That's all.
Does that clear it up?
To answer the questions regarding whether I would tell the players, in some fashion, to reload or similar concepts of actions.
No. I wouldn't.
That action has no bearing in the concept.
They haven't done anything "dumb" yet. They are simply running around on empty. There's no problem in that. There is a problem when they try to fire, however.
Now...when that moment comes, am I going to make them pay dearly for not reloading? No.
I'm going to simply roll the dice completely indifferent.
And if they hold their weapon up to fire it and it's a semi-auto, they'll do a perception test as a free action with half their dice to see if they realize that the chamber is in the back position because it's on empty. (this is just my way of doing things...I add in small rules like this on a whim in my games)
If it's a revolver and they are threatening someone with it, the target will roll a perception test to see if they notice that the revolver is empty.
If they don't then the threats from the player character may work even though it's an empty gun and they may not know it.
And then, if it's empty and they pull the trigger in a fight then it goes as it goes.
*Click!*
Anything that happens after that is completely up to their quick thinking and the dice.
I'm not going to change anything I had planned from 5 minutes ago (I say this because I don't plan my sessions out in detail. I make them up as I go; a few steps ahead of what's going on so that it fits the session more correctly and to size.) so it's not going to suddenly be the worst and dumbest thing they could have done unless the fate of the dice just say that it isn't their day.
What I was saying about helping players out wasn't meant with the idea of giving them an extra hand where they should know what to do.
In my experience, unless the player is a very seasoned player (like Doc, Kage, Fortune, Shadow, and others...) I assume that it's an easy miss-understanding for a player to forget a vivid visualization of their characters surroundings.
That they may not be thinking about the hot dog stand 50 feet from them, the paper stand behind them, the little poodle being walked by the old lady, the bus driver taking a smoke break, the steam from the morning street rolling around, the taste of the bitter cold morning, the glare of the mid-morning sun in winter, the church service across the street that just got out, the crows on the phone wire above, the cabby who's in a squabble with a short change customer...
Things of his nature can be forgotten when you make a character who's goal is to be the ultimate nightmare for shadowrun combat.
It's easy, in my opinion, to forget that SR is not a "game", in the lolly-pop sense of the word, but rather an immense world with real characters and thickly realistic atmospheric reactions to characters actions.
All I try to do is determine when a player might have forgotten that and when they haven't.
If they seem to me to have forgotten the world they are standing in, I'll help remind them very subtly before they do whatever it is they want to do by simply doing one of the following (sometimes more depending):
-ask, "How are you...?" (this asks them how they're going to do something and makes them take a moment to possibly realize what they are doing when they have to think of how to do it.[you never realize how you tie your shoes until you cripple your hand and have to figure out how to do it. Then you realize exactly what it is you are doing.])
-saying simply, "Ok" and taking a brief moment as if studying something or I'll switch over to another character for a moment and let them think about what they just said. (this gives them a moment to actually think about what they are doing rather than spouting it out. Sometimes all they need is an actual moment to think to realize what they are about to do might not be a good idea.)
-the classic intelligence check. Sometimes, their character would just simply know better. To have them have a sudden relapse into retardation because the player lacks the information on that kind of character MO can sometimes make for extremely awkward moments that don't make any sense.
[Your explosives expert who has trained with the military just said that he's going to tap the nitroglycerin bomb because the wiring isn't working right.
This is a classic example of a player who doesn't know anything with a character who would fully well know better than to do this.
If he fails the roll...perhaps he should stop thinking about naked women on the beach while working.]
-and sometimes...just once in a while, I'll straight out ask, "Are you sure?"
This is rare, but it's basically two things.
1) a double check to see if they are clear on what they are saying and are aware of what they are about to do and it's consequences because the ramifications will be very dire if things do not go the way that they are thinking (whatever that may be...but hey...they may shock me with an idea I hadn't expected! Which will get them extra Karma later.)
2) a warning to let them know that what they just said may have very, very dire results that they may not realize are much more probable than they may think is possible.
--------
That's pretty much it.
It's not handing the game to them.
It's making sure they are making the move that they actually want to be making, whether it be the right or wrong move.
I just like my players to make moves that are educated.
I like my players to trick me.
I like them to play a chess game in the SR game and win the move.
I like seeing my players play clever.
So if they seem like they're going to do something based off of bad assumptions, then I try to give them a chance to open up their eyes and see that their assumptions may not be as certain as they thought they were.
That's all.
Does that clear it up?
| QUOTE (Shrapnel @ Nov 28 2004, 08:49 PM) |
| I agree, anything not planned out properly is fair game for the GM... |
Within reason of course, reflecting the actual skills of your players. As we've seen in various posts, experience varies. We've got players who actually have real skills related to their SR characters skills. Then we've got others who don't. I imagine half the crap I know is from movies or books, without real life experience. That's fine. I work with kids with autism and other child mental health related stuff, not really skills that transfer so well into a game. But that's ok I have fun anyway.
Another thing, and I've probably said this before, but the game does a mixed job of trying to figure out what sort of environment it wants to set. If you go by any of the artwork in the various sourcebooks and the like, its like the fictional wild west with runners carrying guns openly, and every back alley encounter involves heavy artillery.
In regards to the reloading example, I guess it depends again on player vs character knowledge. A player who doesn't live their life in the real world having to remember to load ammo just incase there's another firefight after the firefight they just had, probably could be allowed to forget from time to time. If you've got a weapons expert type archtype character, I'd imagine they've got enough experience in the SR world that they check their ammo, reloading when necessary.
An extreme would be, a few hours into your game, the GM goes, your character now has a +1 TN modifier to all checks, cause you haven't said he's gone to the bathroom and we've gone through 2 in-game days. And you haven't said he's eaten, or taken a shower, so...lets give you some stun damage plus penalties to CHA checks.
| QUOTE |
| As for the reloading, I'm talking about watching a character run around for half of an adventure with an empty magazine, because he forgot to reload after the firefight. |
[my opinion]
I view that as screwing the player for something the character would have known. The character is experienced in that (usually) while the player is not. There's a lot of things the player is not expected to know because he is not a felon for hire. It's the GM's job to at least offer an int check or perception roll to cover the things his character should know easily but the player may not. Just because you can program in C does not mean your cahracter can, even if you can describe it in detail, likewise the player may not think of doing a tactical reload while for the character it's second nature. The GM should address those things.
[/my opinion]
I view that as screwing the player for something the character would have known. The character is experienced in that (usually) while the player is not. There's a lot of things the player is not expected to know because he is not a felon for hire. It's the GM's job to at least offer an int check or perception roll to cover the things his character should know easily but the player may not. Just because you can program in C does not mean your cahracter can, even if you can describe it in detail, likewise the player may not think of doing a tactical reload while for the character it's second nature. The GM should address those things.
[/my opinion]
And if the character would not have known it, it's usually because it was created by a player who would.
~J
~J
If a player is not willing to do even a minute amount of background research into his character's field(s) of expertise, he absolutely deserves to get screwed when he doesn't know what to do and lazily expects the GM to pick up the slack. I'm not requiring that all prospective street sams join Delta and prove to me that they can unload, break down, strip, clean, reassemble, load, and fire an M16 in the dark, but I am asking that you understand the basics of small unit tactics and combat. If you don't know what a tactical reload is and if you can't tell me what differentiates an SMG from an assault rifle, maybe you shouldn't be playing a character who deals heavily with these sorts of issues. This is like a decker whining when he gets fucked after not reading the decking rules.
| QUOTE (Arethusa) |
| If a player is not willing to do even a minute amount of background research into his character's field(s) of expertise, he absolutely deserves to get screwed when he doesn't know what to do and lazily expects the GM to pick up the slack. I'm not requiring that all prospective street sams join Delta and prove to me that they can unload, break down, strip, clean, reassemble, load, and fire an M16 in the dark, but I am asking that you understand the basics of small unit tactics and combat. If you don't know what a tactical reload is and if you can't tell me what differentiates an SMG from an assault rifle, maybe you shouldn't be playing a character who deals heavily with these sorts of issues. This is like a decker whining when he gets fucked after not reading the decking rules. |
Seems a bit extreme a game restriction. Not the way I would do it.
But I guess whatever works for others games.
| QUOTE |
| This is like a decker whining when he gets fucked after not reading the decking rules. |
I disagree. In the case of the decker we are dealing with things clearly laid out in the book, while the other scenario is regarding things only a background knowledge in real life int he field in question would know.
Do you make your character's guns jam if they don't explicitly tell you then clean them and maintain them? how often do they have to say that?
If the character writes down 10 clips and 2000 rounds of ammo on a character sheet, when he loads his first clip do you tell him it doesnt fire because he forgot to tell you he put the bullets in the clips?
Do all cars run out of gas unless the player constantly tells you he is going to the gas station to fill up even if you dont tell him he's low on gas?
Where do you draw the line?
And even better, how do you separate the player knowledge from the character?
Do you make your character's guns jam if they don't explicitly tell you then clean them and maintain them? how often do they have to say that?
If the character writes down 10 clips and 2000 rounds of ammo on a character sheet, when he loads his first clip do you tell him it doesnt fire because he forgot to tell you he put the bullets in the clips?
Do all cars run out of gas unless the player constantly tells you he is going to the gas station to fill up even if you dont tell him he's low on gas?
Where do you draw the line?
And even better, how do you separate the player knowledge from the character?
Would I remind a character to reload?
No.
Would I then screw the character in his next firefight?
Almost certainly no! He's a fricking professional, the character would reload as a matter of course!
There would have to be some seriously extenuating circumstances before I'd pull that stunt.
I agree completely with the sentiments expressed by many here; we are not a community of hard-core military types, pro catburglars and expert datathieves (well... probably not, anyway
). We just play them. So I cut them, and would expect a GM to cut me, some slack on the things that would be second nature to a character of that ilk but not to me.
No.
Would I then screw the character in his next firefight?
Almost certainly no! He's a fricking professional, the character would reload as a matter of course!
There would have to be some seriously extenuating circumstances before I'd pull that stunt.I agree completely with the sentiments expressed by many here; we are not a community of hard-core military types, pro catburglars and expert datathieves (well... probably not, anyway
). We just play them. So I cut them, and would expect a GM to cut me, some slack on the things that would be second nature to a character of that ilk but not to me.| QUOTE |
| I am asking that you understand the basics of small unit tactics and combat. If you don't know what a tactical reload is and if you can't tell me what differentiates an SMG from an assault rifle, maybe you shouldn't be playing a character who deals heavily with these sorts of issues. This is like a decker whining when he gets fucked after not reading the decking rules. |
I disagree. The bloke playing the decker didn't read the game rules for playing his archetype, he gets screwed, that's his problem. The bloke playing the samurai is an insurance salesman and not an expert in small unit tactics, that is not his problem. Hell, I couldn't tell you what a tactical reload is, but I've played samurai, enjoyed it, and received no complaints from my fellow players about it. If you do happen to know about that sort of thing, great! I'll incorporate it. But required reading? I'm not convinced.
EDIT: I might just add that however much a player might know about small unit tactics, I as a GM know two things: diddley and squat. Players who continually nag me about my fire teams not using proper tactics are going to get a metaphysical slap before too long
Actually, I would not assume that the PC reloaded. Even though we are not "hard-core military types, pro catburglars and expert datathieves", there is no assuming that the PCs will not screw up either. I've seen guys try to clear a room with only a couple of rounds left in the magazine(despite being told time and again to reload for every room), which earned them the "Cocks of the Day" sobriquet. Another example would be (despite the game mechanics/game controls making things easy): How many time didn't you remember to reload after a firefight in a FPS? How many times did you become a free frag because of an empty mag?
We are not even talking about counting the number of rounds you fired in a firefight, so that you do not even need to check to know when you should reload. Everything is done nicely and calmly on paper.
We are not even talking about counting the number of rounds you fired in a firefight, so that you do not even need to check to know when you should reload. Everything is done nicely and calmly on paper.
| QUOTE (toturi) |
| Another example would be (despite the game mechanics/game controls making things easy): How many time didn't you remember to reload after a firefight in a FPS? How many times did you become a free frag because of an empty mag? |
Heh, actually I'm a free frag more often for my obssessive reloading than for running out of ammo
I can't count the number of times I've been in mid-reload and somone's popped out from a corner and popped a cap in my head.I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one. Having seen the way reloading is drilled into military recruits, for example, I find it hard to believe that a pro gunner would forget to do so, but YMMV.
| QUOTE (Voran) |
| An extreme would be, a few hours into your game, the GM goes, your character now has a +1 TN modifier to all checks, cause you haven't said he's gone to the bathroom and we've gone through 2 in-game days. And you haven't said he's eaten, or taken a shower, so...lets give you some stun damage plus penalties to CHA checks. |
I actually had a player once who requested we give him this sort of treatment. Almost a direct quote from him:
"If my character forgets to brush his teeth in the morning, I want penalties later from a toothache."
But I didn't listen to him, and we wnt back to our usual style of people shooting at him and him trying really stupid things to get out of it and failing.
Since someone mentioned these earlier, I thought I'd post the link again (I think I did it before somewhere...)
Also, I thought I'd have a pop into the discussion....
Now, I freely admit that I'm an actor, not a criminal. I've never handled a real gun in my life, short of an air rifle. I DO however, know logistics, and so might I say: if you are running, please, please-please-please, all use the same gear. I know it's not an issue if your gm uses canon, but it's useful if everyone can share bullets... or clips. Shared Resources rule.
Also, am I the only one that gets really pissed off when movie characters run around the fiery combat zone, take out a guard and then LEAVE HIM THERE, not bothering to take his ammo/weapon/radio/anything that could be remotely useful? They can always ditch it later, but WTF? They don't seem to bother!
And a word of praise for a movie, to finish... conceptually, I want Danny Glover's car from Predator 2: in the boot... ooh baby...
and I quote (along similar lines):
"Guns are like condoms - I'd rather have one and not need it, than need it and not have one..."
(Aliens Vs Predator)
Also, I thought I'd have a pop into the discussion....
Now, I freely admit that I'm an actor, not a criminal. I've never handled a real gun in my life, short of an air rifle. I DO however, know logistics, and so might I say: if you are running, please, please-please-please, all use the same gear. I know it's not an issue if your gm uses canon, but it's useful if everyone can share bullets... or clips. Shared Resources rule.
Also, am I the only one that gets really pissed off when movie characters run around the fiery combat zone, take out a guard and then LEAVE HIM THERE, not bothering to take his ammo/weapon/radio/anything that could be remotely useful? They can always ditch it later, but WTF? They don't seem to bother!
And a word of praise for a movie, to finish... conceptually, I want Danny Glover's car from Predator 2: in the boot... ooh baby...
and I quote (along similar lines):
"Guns are like condoms - I'd rather have one and not need it, than need it and not have one..."
(Aliens Vs Predator)
As you yourself point out, Drain Brain, all that is necessary is that one use the same class of weapon (Heavy Pistol, SMG, Sporting Rifle, etc. etc. etc.).
~J
~J
But the clips are different sizes and therefore arguably incompatible. If everyone is packing Predators (1, 2 or 3) then the clips are interchangeable, but you're SOL if you need to slot a predator clip into a Browning.
| QUOTE (Nikoli) |
| But the clips are different sizes and therefore arguably incompatible. If everyone is packing Predators (1, 2 or 3) then the clips are interchangeable, but you're SOL if you need to slot a predator clip into a Browning. |
You mean this isn't Deus Ex Invisible War?
Nor is it the old SR console game with the "morphing clip technology"
IMO remembering to reload is something that new players to SR should be reminded of a few times (hopefully from the other runners, but perhaps the GM once or twice), but it should always be presented as a decision for the character to make ("You might want to reload your guns" rather than "Reload your guns"). I can envision the scenario now, "As you pop the clip out of your Predator, another guard sticks his head around the door and starts shooting at you." You'd better bet that if you did that you'd have your players yelling, "But I didn't say I reloaded!"
That's why you have one person reload at a time.
~J
~J
This is why you should "Reload!" so your squad mates know to cover you while you duck and, well, reload.
| QUOTE (Arethusa @ Nov 29 2004, 04:38 AM) |
| If a player is not willing to do even a minute amount of background research into his character's field(s) of expertise, he absolutely deserves to get screwed when he doesn't know what to do and lazily expects the GM to pick up the slack. I'm not requiring that all prospective street sams join Delta and prove to me that they can unload, break down, strip, clean, reassemble, load, and fire an M16 in the dark, but I am asking that you understand the basics of small unit tactics and combat. If you don't know what a tactical reload is and if you can't tell me what differentiates an SMG from an assault rifle, maybe you shouldn't be playing a character who deals heavily with these sorts of issues. This is like a decker whining when he gets fucked after not reading the decking rules. |
I would also argue that this is a matter of common sense.
I've never been in the military or on the SWAT team, but I know things like some details about the difference between how you shoot on the range formally and tactical shooting, or the difference between and SMG and an assault rifle, or the difference between 9mm and .45 ACP, the role of blood loss and shock as the most common causes of death following gunshot wounds, or that you don't *really* do a cinematic movie spin when you want to return fire from behind cover, etc.
I would argue that things like this are common knowledge. It's common sense. You don't need to be some kind of expert or professional to know that spinning out from behind cover like a retard is probably a bad idea when you could just peek around the corner with, like, 1 eyeball and totally minimize exposure.
EDIT: Also, about the reloading issue: whether or not the GM assumes that the PCs reloaded, the PC could still get screwed if the *player* only put down 2 magazines on his character sheet. Just a thought.
| QUOTE (BitBasher) | ||
I disagree. In the case of the decker we are dealing with things clearly laid out in the book, while the other scenario is regarding things only a background knowledge in real life int he field in question would know. Do you make your character's guns jam if they don't explicitly tell you then clean them and maintain them? how often do they have to say that? If the character writes down 10 clips and 2000 rounds of ammo on a character sheet, when he loads his first clip do you tell him it doesnt fire because he forgot to tell you he put the bullets in the clips? Do all cars run out of gas unless the player constantly tells you he is going to the gas station to fill up even if you dont tell him he's low on gas? Where do you draw the line? And even better, how do you separate the player knowledge from the character? |
The first SR GM I played with was like that. PC mortality was like 1 per every 1 or 2 games. But personally I still had fun.
It's what got me interested in Shadowrun.
| QUOTE (Tarantula) | ||
You mean this isn't Deus Ex Invisible War? |
Speak not of The Sequel Botch From Hell Which Came From One Of The Best Games Ever.
| QUOTE (Arethusa) |
| This is why you should (shout) "Reload!" so your squad mates know to cover you while you duck and, well, reload. |
The scene(s) from Black Hawk Down with the two Delta snipers defending the downed chopper are a good example of this.
| QUOTE (Fortune) | ||
The scene(s) from Black Hawk Down with the two Delta snipers defending the downed chopper are a good example of this. |
And on a related note, those two guys had a phenominal attrition ratio before they went down.
| QUOTE (Wounded Ronin) |
| I've never been in the military or on the SWAT team, but I know things like some details about the difference between how you shoot on the range formally and tactical shooting, or the difference between and SMG and an assault rifle, or the difference between 9mm and .45 ACP, the role of blood loss and shock as the most common causes of death following gunshot wounds, or that you don't *really* do a cinematic movie spin when you want to return fire from behind cover, etc. I would argue that things like this are common knowledge. It's common sense. You don't need to be some kind of expert or professional to know that spinning out from behind cover like a retard is probably a bad idea when you could just peek around the corner with, like, 1 eyeball and totally minimize exposure. |
Wow.
What's that one saying? "Common sense... isn't?"
I'd be utterly shocked if most new gamers knew which end of a gun it is you point towards the bad guys IRL.
Regarding common sense...
The only form I know of is mine.
Everyone else has to show me theirs through my apparent stupidity.
Next:
A very large amount of conversation regarding reloading has centered around tactical engagements and teams of tactical levels.
I emplore everyone here to remember that SR is not just tactical teams running around kicking seudo-military ass.
In fact...SR started off very punk-with-gun rather than merc-mil-tactical-kill.
Don't forget that more than one style of character exists in this world.
Forgetting to reload is extremely easy for a mass amount of the population IRL, even for soldiers.
Hell...when I'm at the range, the last thing I'm doing is counting my ammo. I just concentrate and shoot. When my bolt and trigger pull back and lock, I know it's time to reload.
In a real combat situation, anyother than a very special elite few would not know their ammo count. They would just run out mid combat and have to take cover to reload and improvise the moment to make time safely to do so.
Yelling "Reload!" would be something that a merc team could be seen doing.
But not all SR teams are merc teams by any measure.
Some of the characters in the team might be, but you also have post-gangers, post-wage-slaves, prior-family men/women, and who ever happens to walk down the road and get their nose dirty for a price.
I guess my point is...try to keep in mind that SR is not just a population of mercs.
It's a population of characters.
The only form I know of is mine.
Everyone else has to show me theirs through my apparent stupidity.
Next:
A very large amount of conversation regarding reloading has centered around tactical engagements and teams of tactical levels.
I emplore everyone here to remember that SR is not just tactical teams running around kicking seudo-military ass.
In fact...SR started off very punk-with-gun rather than merc-mil-tactical-kill.
Don't forget that more than one style of character exists in this world.
Forgetting to reload is extremely easy for a mass amount of the population IRL, even for soldiers.
Hell...when I'm at the range, the last thing I'm doing is counting my ammo. I just concentrate and shoot. When my bolt and trigger pull back and lock, I know it's time to reload.
In a real combat situation, anyother than a very special elite few would not know their ammo count. They would just run out mid combat and have to take cover to reload and improvise the moment to make time safely to do so.
Yelling "Reload!" would be something that a merc team could be seen doing.
But not all SR teams are merc teams by any measure.
Some of the characters in the team might be, but you also have post-gangers, post-wage-slaves, prior-family men/women, and who ever happens to walk down the road and get their nose dirty for a price.
I guess my point is...try to keep in mind that SR is not just a population of mercs.
It's a population of characters.
But the Smartlink makes keeping track of ammo trivial, and is perhaps the most common single piece of cyberware in PCs, beating out the datajack in my experience.
~J
~J
In the kidnapping scene at the begining of The Way of the Gun, the two leads do a textbook "Move/Moving" retreat.
In defense of people who don't care about tactical stuff, though: We all have weak spots as gamers. Some people are just more tactical than others. Some people may want to play a very tactical minded character, but they themselves just may not be able to think that way. I don't think that means they shouldn't be allowed to play it, though. I would say the majority of what goes on in gaming deals with things that gamers have little real-world experience with (this does not include, of course, those of you who are employed as corporate espionage mercenaries, as well as the magically active).
The underlying point to this is, its an odd situation because the GM's opinions are the laws of the game universe, even though no one else at the table might share them. Sometimes a GM who thinks in very cinematic combat terms will be running a game for players who are more gritty and low-key, and sometimes the opposite it true. I think its a fine line for a GM to not punish people for having different opinions on how the game world works, especially since we are dealing with a game that can be run at either end of the spectrum, from hardnosed uber-realism to full-on anime.
There was a fascinating scene in I, Robot where Will Smith yells at the female lead for she fires a gun with her eyes closed at someone holding him hostage; yet not ten seconds before, he was firing a full-auto burst from an SMG while leaping off crashing motorcycle at someone standing beside her.
In defense of people who don't care about tactical stuff, though: We all have weak spots as gamers. Some people are just more tactical than others. Some people may want to play a very tactical minded character, but they themselves just may not be able to think that way. I don't think that means they shouldn't be allowed to play it, though. I would say the majority of what goes on in gaming deals with things that gamers have little real-world experience with (this does not include, of course, those of you who are employed as corporate espionage mercenaries, as well as the magically active).
The underlying point to this is, its an odd situation because the GM's opinions are the laws of the game universe, even though no one else at the table might share them. Sometimes a GM who thinks in very cinematic combat terms will be running a game for players who are more gritty and low-key, and sometimes the opposite it true. I think its a fine line for a GM to not punish people for having different opinions on how the game world works, especially since we are dealing with a game that can be run at either end of the spectrum, from hardnosed uber-realism to full-on anime.
There was a fascinating scene in I, Robot where Will Smith yells at the female lead for she fires a gun with her eyes closed at someone holding him hostage; yet not ten seconds before, he was firing a full-auto burst from an SMG while leaping off crashing motorcycle at someone standing beside her.
That's why I always go for the six-shooter, its easy to count.
| QUOTE (Mercer) |
| (this does not include, of course, those of you who are employed as corporate espionage mercenaries, as well as the magically active). |
Hey hey hey, we can't all be Polaris.
~J
| QUOTE (Stumps @ Nov 30 2004, 11:10 AM) |
| I guess my point is...try to keep in mind that SR is not just a population of mercs. It's a population of characters. |
| QUOTE (Mercer) |
| The underlying point to this is, its an odd situation because the GM's opinions are the laws of the game universe, even though no one else at the table might share them. Sometimes a GM who thinks in very cinematic combat terms will be running a game for players who are more gritty and low-key, and sometimes the opposite it true. I think its a fine line for a GM to not punish people for having different opinions on how the game world works, especially since we are dealing with a game that can be run at either end of the spectrum, from hardnosed uber-realism to full-on anime. |
Depending on the realism level you put in your game, SR can be a meat grinder and very Darwinian. Therfore all those that can't cut it are dead or going to die.
| QUOTE (lodestar) |
| That's why I always go for the six-shooter, its easy to count. |
Breach loading grenade launcher.
If your grenade launcher has a breach in it, you'd better take it to get serviced
~J
~J
Well, since I kinda started the whole reloading argument, I should probably add a few details.
The character in question was modeled after the player in question, almost exactly. Everyone has warned him to use his imagination, but all of his characters end up almost EXACTLY like him. Not skills, exactly (Who here has Stealth 6?), but personality wise.
I go shooting with him IRL quite often, so there was NO excuse for him forgetting to reload. Especially since the character was modeled after him. And he didn't have a smartlink, so the ammo counter didn't exactly apply.
As for slide-lock telling him he was empty, he was using a Narcoject pistol, which in my opinion, doesn't have a slide-lock. It is a dart pistol, not a real firearm. In fact, a lot of "light" pistols, or "hold-out" pistols, IRL, don't have a slide-lock either.
Quick question for the experts: Would the Narcoject pistol effectively be silenced, since it is a dart pistol? How does it fire? CO2, or springs, or a normal cartridge with a sabot style dart?
The character in question was modeled after the player in question, almost exactly. Everyone has warned him to use his imagination, but all of his characters end up almost EXACTLY like him. Not skills, exactly (Who here has Stealth 6?), but personality wise.
I go shooting with him IRL quite often, so there was NO excuse for him forgetting to reload. Especially since the character was modeled after him. And he didn't have a smartlink, so the ammo counter didn't exactly apply.
As for slide-lock telling him he was empty, he was using a Narcoject pistol, which in my opinion, doesn't have a slide-lock. It is a dart pistol, not a real firearm. In fact, a lot of "light" pistols, or "hold-out" pistols, IRL, don't have a slide-lock either.
Quick question for the experts: Would the Narcoject pistol effectively be silenced, since it is a dart pistol? How does it fire? CO2, or springs, or a normal cartridge with a sabot style dart?
| QUOTE |
| Depending on the realism level you put in your game, SR can be a meat grinder and very Darwinian. Therfore all those that can't cut it are dead or going to die. |
toturi, I don't see how what I said has anything to do with this at all.
Regardless of the severity of your SR's "Darwinism", what I said still stands perfectly fine.
All I was saying was, remember that not only Mercs are characters in SR.
Mercs are not the top of the food chain in SR.
They are one of the types in SR.
A character who is out for vengeance is just as dangerous as a Merc in SR to the man that he is after.
The difference is that the man out for vengeance may not know anything about tactical movements or combat.
He has a gun and he wants someone dead. That's it.
Darwin regardless.
Shrapnel.
You brought up the reloading as a question of my examples of GM handling "dumb" things players might do.
I expressed something that was able to be interpreted as quite a liberal act.
Your question was intended to ask me to define exactly how far would I bother to go to giving the players a hand because obviously there has to be a point that is too far.
Now that conversation has spun into an exact one regarding a certain player who does a specific thing on a continual level with persistent reminding from the other players in the group to the contrary.
That's a bit different from what was the conversation prior.
Asking if I would remind someone to reload or whether I would ask your player to reload is completely different in aim and answer.
Your player would have a very interesting time with me if he made the group suffer that much with blatant disregard to the offered advise and suggestions.
He wouldn't be punished or anything. He would just have an interesting time.
As to the continual "reminding them of dumber stuff".
I'll just point right back to my previous post on the subject that was prompted by shrapnel's question about my reminding players to reload.
Stumps, sorry I got the thread off on a tangent... It wasn't my intention.
You are correct, you were only answering a direct question I made, and I hadn't given any of the details I was thinking of when I asked the question.
I do agree with the theory of whether the character would remember, as opposed to the player. I also agree with the idea of asking them subtly if that is really what they want to do. The only problem is a person gets tired of trying to help repeat offenders... Or when the character is modeled after the player in question...
I'm still kind of new to the forum, so I will now skulk my way off of the stage, and let the experts resume where they left off...
So, any opinions on the Narcoject Pistol?
You are correct, you were only answering a direct question I made, and I hadn't given any of the details I was thinking of when I asked the question.
I do agree with the theory of whether the character would remember, as opposed to the player. I also agree with the idea of asking them subtly if that is really what they want to do. The only problem is a person gets tired of trying to help repeat offenders... Or when the character is modeled after the player in question...
I'm still kind of new to the forum, so I will now skulk my way off of the stage, and let the experts resume where they left off...
So, any opinions on the Narcoject Pistol?
| QUOTE (Shrapnel) |
| I'm still kind of new to the forum, so I will now skulk my way off of the stage, and let the experts resume where they left off... |
Psht. Do you think the more seasoned posters sprang fully-formed from the boards or something? Get in there and mix it up!
~J
| QUOTE (Shrapnel) |
| So, any opinions on the Narcoject Pistol? |
Well, the description of dart guns in companion says: "These pistols and rifles deliver chemical-coated darts, most commonly narcoject." It also says to treat the pistol as a light pistol for range, so I'm going to assume that it is not inheriently silenced.
Well, I don't know about the rest of you, but AE and I sprang fully formed from teh head of Raygun... 
Actually, I've been reading and playing Shadowrun since 1st Edition, which was sparked by the Shadowrun game for SNES. The only problem is my current lack of players. It is down to myself and one other friend, and we take turns running solo campaigns. It's a lot of fun, actually. Kinda like a James Bond movie...
My major problem is I'm still stuck in the Stone Age... (2nd Edition) I've been trying to work 3rd Edition rules in a little at a time, but just don't have the funds available, or enough players to justify the expense. Besides, I have a pretty extensive collection of 2nd Edition books that I would really miss... 
So, long story short, please go easy on me...
My major problem is I'm still stuck in the Stone Age... (2nd Edition)
I've been trying to work 3rd Edition rules in a little at a time, but just don't have the funds available, or enough players to justify the expense. Besides, I have a pretty extensive collection of 2nd Edition books that I would really miss... So, long story short, please go easy on me...
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