What are people's thoughts on a vibro-blade weapon focus?

My gut reaction is no, but if one can attune a vehicle or prepare it as a vessel maybe moving parts aren't an issue ....

If it's part of a cool concept for a fairly well-rounded character that doesn't have OMG dicepools with the sword, I'd say allow it. Doesn't seem too unbalancing, vibro-blade isn't that much better than other melee weapons.

If it's for a one-trick-pony swordmaster who can cut things with 30 dice and not do much else, I'd disallow it

but thats not a base for an equilized decision
I like Your Face/Your Char concept so I allow it, but Your Face /Char concept I don't like so I dissallow it ?
Do I smell GM's Fiat here ?
Not very Fair ImO

with a more balanced Dance
medicineman

You do in fact "smell" GM fiat, because that's what I'm suggesting, as it doesn't seem to have a clear actual rule either way.

I'm advocating a play style that emphasizes concepts and story over power gaming. You might not. We can have different opinions, it's ok

If your group is more shifted towards power gamers, by all means ignore me.

While there is a weird reduction of effectiveness on the astral plane in the FAQ there is no actual rule about this. You could even use a monofilament whip.

Yeah, the electronic vibro- part of the weapon wouldn't work very well on the astral, so to avoid headaches of that nature I would just say no.

Of course the motor for the vibration would not work, but the user knows knows that the weapon is more effective and thus can focus his will more effectively. The rules clearly state that a weapon focus does damage as the weapon. It does not say it is the damage of the weapon minus any electr(on)ic enhancements, that is an addition by the FAQ with no basis in the rules. What about non electric enhancements, like the AP bonus of a katana or monofilament sword?

Crafting weapon foci from high tech weapons will take longer though and a talismonger may charge more for them, logically. Again this is not in the rules AFAIK.

Does the Focus not do Damage on the Astral based on it's Force?
And on the Mundane you get bonus Dice for the Skill when using the weapon?

Vibro weapons do have modifiers to their stats when their batteries run out. I'd just use those "unpowered" stats for astral space.

And yes, as Dakka Dakka mentioned, this would qualify as a high tech weapon at least. But then, even something like a monofilament sword or a nontraditionally made katana (a.k.a., stainless steel) will fall into this category as well.

Overall I'm not aware of anything against the rules directly, but considering the mechanized nature of a vibro weapon I'd think as a weapon focus they'd be rarer and pricier than other melee weapons.

Hell, you can have a Cyber-Spur Weapon-Focus too . .

Nope, it does the same damage as the weapon it is based on.
Almost. You get bonus dice on the attack roll. Weapon foci are no better at defending than their mundane counterparts.

Thanks guys. I think I will allow it (irrespective of character design) and discount the vibro-bonus on the astral, that makes sense.

The character in question is a Jedi-wannabe and I thought a vibro-sword would work for the noise and extra slice-ability aspects.

I would allow all melee weapons but made a slight houserule when it comes to different weapons. Low tech weapons are cheaper, so are smaller weapons as they make less base damage.

Weapon Foci
A weapon foci can only be built by mainly being a weapon that delivers its damage from the user’s strength. Weapons using technological means to damage its target are far more complicated and more expensive due to the imbalance between technology and magic.

Gloves, daggers, swords and knuckledusters are good examples of possible Foci. The larger the weapon or technologically complicated the more expensive it becomes.

Weapon Foci CostWeapon Foci: 2000,00 X Modifier (Minimum 1)
STR+AP+Reach= Modifier.
Fixed Damage= Modifier
1/ 2 AP= Fixed Damage

Example: Katana Str+2 / Ap-1 / Reach 1 Modifier: 4 X 2000 + Weapon Cost
Example: Shock Gloves 5S / AP (+5) / Reach 0 Modifier: 10 X 2000 + Weapon Cost

Hmm you might be better served (closer to a light saber) with a custom manipulation spell. I'm assuming the character has some spellcasting ability as the other force effects need to be represented by spells anyways:
Astral/Force Blade:
Type: M/P • Range: Caster Only • Duration: S • DV: (F ÷ 2) + 0 / + 1

The spell creates a blade of Light at the end of the the caster's hand. It can be wielded as a bladed weapon. The blade does (hits)P base damage. It is resisted with half Impact armor and gets the Light elemental effect. The caster also has the option of creating a large blade (+1 drain) with reach 1 and hits+1 damage or a two-handed blade (+2 drain) with Reach 2 and hits+2 damage.
Astral blade is the mana spell version that affects only living creatures but can be cast on the astral plane.

Now the character can make a hilt as a sustaining focus and possibly fetish, to get rid of the sustaining penalty, and better fit the fluff of jedi. It also adds some balancing to it since it caps the force of the spell, and allows the character to be disarmed.

... and after being disarmed, to use Magic Fingers and do the whole "make the saber fly into my hand" Jedi trick.

Hell, use a summoning focus as the blade's hilt.

Why a summoning focus? I'm not aware that jedi are supposed to do anything resembling SR conjuring.

oh and sorry for derailing the thread.

They're at a -2 for actions otherwise.

I think you meant SUSTAINING focus. And that was already mentioned, anyway.

No, he uses the summoning focus for the spirit of Yoda that sits next to him as he fights.

Yeah, there's really no salvaging that fuckup. Ah well. Burn an edge and move on.

Or Fling. Same drain, it's instant (no spending your next Free Action to drop the spell), and it'll be a single test to throw the focus back to you instead of potentially two (if the GM calls for an Agility test to grab it).

Yeah, I can see Fling going very badly for trying to bring a bladed weapon back to you. Magic Fingers would be much more controlled.

Sorry, I was referring to the "Light Saber" sustaining focus I thought Pax was talking about.

I think Dr. Rockso was under the impression that the spell was still active after the disarm. And frankly he may have a point there. While fetishes restrict the casting of the spell there is no mention of any interaction between them and sustaining a spell. So the spell would continue to work unless the caster breaks concentration.

Yeah, I meant the focus.

Fling, IMO, would require two tests - one to throw it, another to catch it.

But Magic Fingers is basically a "telekinesis" spell, so it should be no great shakes to just, you know, "hand it to yourself", you see?

Spells held up by a sustaining focus drop when the focus loses the touch-connection to it's owndr because a focus goes dormant when it's not in touch-connection to it's owner.

I get where you're going with that.

In most cases I wouldn't require a PC to roll dice to catch anything intentionally and knowingly thrown to him with the intent that the recipient is going to catch it. Using Fling to throw something to yourself would qualify as such an act.

And Magic Fingers feels like it'd take too long to me. One Complex Action to cast the spell, the next to remotely grab your focus and bring it back to you. But no matter, really. I expect GMs are gonna do whatever they feel is right in this case in their games.

You've never seen my girlfriend try to catch something, even when tossed very gently to her, so it literally lands ON her.

Now add the stress of combat, of needing to get that weapon or focus back into your hands ASAP and not fumble it ...

Like I said, I get where you're going with that.

First timer/inexperienced runners, sure. Those who're a little hardened to the stresses of a fight, probably not (unless they've got a quality like Clumsy Smurf). But like I said, I also expect GMs to do whatever they feel is right in this case.

I guess it depends on whether your game is directed my Michael Bay or Mel Brooks.

If the character doesn't have the Gymnastics DP to buy a couple of successes he's less of a Jedi-wannabe and more of a guy looking for a convention!

Street Magic P83
"All focus formulae specify the type of focus (spell, spirit,
power, weapon, or metamagic), Force, form (wooden quarterstaff,
gold ring, vibroknife, etc.)"

Well shortstraw just answered by question, and that is in previous editions magic items had to be hand made by the enchanter. This is apparently not the case in SR4. But if I recall correctly, processed items by their very nature are going to be harder and therefore more expensive to enchant.

By RAW they have no change in cost but if you were going to introduce it i would suggest that they would be more likely to cost more to bond not enchant. This would keep it inline with an adept attuning technological items. Also a quick side note my adept that uses a weapon focus vibroblade used a unique enchantment to create a "singing sword" a thematically appropriate magical equivalent.

The Shadowrun FAQ on the official website has a topic about this issue:

"If your weapon focus requires fuel or power (monofilament chainsaw, vibroblade, laser crescent axe) does it work when you’re astrally projecting?

Yes, but since the technological aspect of the weapon (moving parts, monofilament, laser blade, etc.) doesn’t apply in the astral, the weapon should be treated as its nearest basic equivalent (a chainsaw would simply be a club, a laser crescent axe would just be an axe, and so on)."



"Can I have _____ as a focus? How much does it cost?

A focus can take any form: a ring, a dagger, a commlink, a cyberlimb, etc. For most foci, it is assumed the cost of the telesma (the physical basis of the focus) is incorporated in the cost of the focus. If the player wants the focus to be anything particularly large or expensive, however, then the cost of the item should be added to the cost of the focus.

Snowblood wants a Force 2 monofilament sword weapon focus; the talismonger tells her it would cost 20,750¥-750¥ for the telesma (monofilament sword) and 20,000¥ for the enchantment (Force 2 weapon focus).

That's slightly wrong i think.
A Cyberlimb can not be a Focus, as it becomes a part of the Character, right?

Again the Shadowrun 4 FAQ is your friend

"Can you enchant cyberware and bioware? What about nanotech or genetech?

You can enchant cyberware, but this must be done before it is implanted (after it’s implanted, it’s a part of you). Such a focus would be considered Mundane Telesma (pp. 83-84, Street Magic). Bioware is a living material and may not be enchanted.

Nanotech consists of a collection of nanites, and cannot be enchanted as a group; while enchanting a single nanite is theoretically possible, they are extremely fragile and would not last long (at most 1 week inside a metahuman body). Genetech consists of alterations made to the character at a fundamental level, and so do not have a physical basis for enchantment—and even if it did, it would still be living material and not suitable for enchanting.

EDIT: here's the link to the FAQ if you want to read it for yourself: Shadowrun 4 FAQ

ah, right, i remember now.

Kudos Wrestling Troll, nice find!

As I wrote earlier, this is not backed up by the rules. It is pure fabrication by the author(s) of the FAQ. You could find fluffy justifications for the weapon focus to work either way.

Still using enchanted cyberware after it is implanted should also be impossible for the reason Stahlseele mentioned. You could however enchant a cyberarm and use it as a club, but that would be a pretty expensive club. The removable blades of the Projectile Spur might be an edge case.

Since it is never mentioned whether tattoos become part of the recipient, enchanting them should be OK.

Tattoos explicitly work.
There was even a Tattoo MetaMagic in SR3.

Where does it say that in SR4?

Wasn't tattoo magic really spell anchors in SR3?

It was a specialized form of the Quickening MetaMagic and had Quickening as a Prerequisite to be learned, if i remember correctly.

Correct. But i cannot remember something like that being mentioned in SR4. If the GM described it correctly, some grunts in Ghost Cartels have quickened spells this way, but i might have missed some information during the manabolt-massacre i caused.^^

In 3rd Ed there wasn't a "has to be handmade" requirement either. Handmade / virgin telesma were just (far) easier to enchant. But even that problem could be circumvented by "simply" using more orichalcum as part of the enchanting formula.

Sometimes the authors of the FAQ seem to be adding new rules (which should not belong in the FAQ, but the eratta), and other times they even blatantly contradict the rules as written (the limit to adept power rating for mystic adepts). This is not really either thing, though. It is common sense. Technological things like motors and lasers don't work on the astral plane. So the astral version of such weapons would not be able to use such features. In the case of the vibro blade, there are rules in Arsenal for the damage code when the vibro function is not activated, so it is comparatively easy to determine the damage that it does.

First of all there is no common sense concerning fictional things like magic, we have to look at the rules. The rules state that weapon foci do the same damage as the weapon they are made of. There is no restriction that certain features (which contribute to the overall damage of the weapon) do not work. The FAQ is indeed contradicting the rules.

One way of looking at the problem from a fluff perspective is that electricity and electric motors have no meaning on the astral plane and thus do not work, as you stated. Still kinetic weapons do different damage on the astral plane based on their size and mass (cf. knife and Combat axe) even though their mass is meaningless on the astral plane as well.

The other way of looking at it is that the user simply knows that the vibroblade is more effective than regular sword and thus can channel his mental strength more effectively, just as he can do it better with a Combat Axe compared to a knife.

It was my belief that foci were dual natured so if the blade was enchanted the physical motor would move the dual natured blade which would cut the astral entity no?

For the astrally pwerceiving focu user this is correct, but it is a bit more problematic for the astrally projecting ones as the physical and astral forms of the focus are no longer in the same place.