Edit - Long Story Short, NOPE.AVI

So I've been kicking around the idea of creating a sort of spellbreaker character, an anti-magic specialist, probably a mystic adept. Basically he's the sort of guy you go to for dealing with rogue spirits, for setting up magical security, or more commonly for getting past it.

So naturally enough I started brushing up on things like wards, particularly the advanced varieties like Charged Wards or Polarized Wards, things I've yet to actually encounter in games myself. But then I got to thinking about various creative uses for wards, and I thought - "What if instead of a wall or other large structure, you created a ward on something portable, so it could be moved and adjusted as a form of astral 'sandbagging' for tactical cover and the like?"

So I went back to the core ward rules, to see if it was possible, because I've never heard of anyone moving wards, and this is the only relevant information I found in SR4A, on page 194: [Emphasis mine]


So what's to stop someone from putting a ward on a portable barricade, or on a ballistic shield? The anchor could be a sigil, glyph, rune, or other symbol on the physical barrier, or even some component part of it like a strap or a buckle or spike (anything you could qualify as "an object"). Then you pick up the physical barrier and carry it, and the ward placed on it, with you. The anchor doesn't move in relation to the ward, as they are both moving together.

Am I missing something somewhere? Because this seems brilliant, and can get even better. Why stop at a personal shield? Ward your armor. After all, the creator of a ward is unaffected by it. Don't want to be sporting immediately obvious magical shielding? Use a Polarized Ward, with the transparent side facing outwards. Now anyone Astrally Perceiving you will need to actually Assense you (threshold of 3) to see the ward. The downside is your ward no longer imposes a visibility modifier for spells cast against you, but in exchange your extra resist dice are reasonably concealed from astral view.

I'm looking forward to someone pointing out something from another book or whatnot and ruining my fun.

~Umidori

Aside from the Ward needing to be i think 1m³ per point of Force?
Not much. Wards are portable. Usually on containers to guard something in there . .

The only thing I'm seeing about size is this, again from SR4A:


Not seeing anything about minimums, and force merely determines the strength of the ward, while net hits determine the number of weeks the ward lasts. Drain is equal to the chosen force, and that seems to be the primary limiting factor here, but only at higher forces.

Also, holy crap, throw in a Masking Ward if you have the Masking Metamagic? Now not only do you have subtly hidden extra dice for magic resistance, you also can conceal your astral activity! Walk around astrally perceiving without anyone or anything realizing! Or even cast spells on yourself up to the force of the Masking Ward! And even if someone notices the ward, it still masks your actions from view until disrupted!

~Umidori

Umidori--Last paragraph in The Shape of a Ward, SM p123. It must extend at least 1m in all directions from the anchor, making very small wards impossible.

Ahh, thank you. Did miss that. Although it's a strict 1m^3 limit, rather than per point of force.

Still, not too bad a limitation is it? Wanna carry a warded personal shield? Simply make the shield the anchor inside of a 1m x 1m x (Shield Height)m box ward. Sure, it clips out a bit, but not badly. It's even better for body armor, as the average person is almost a meter wide and long anyway, with trolls even being larger than that.

Ahh, but here's the nix. SM, bottom of p. 123.


So no warded armor or shields, nor even warded boxes for transportation. Probably for the best, and I was honestly expecting it.

Still, weird thought - if the important connection is the link between the astral shadow of the physical anchor and the space which is being warded, what does it matter if the physical anchor moves? Won't its astral shadow move "with" it, so to speak?

Or tackling it from the other side - if the important connection is the link between the astral shadow of the physical anchor and the space which is being warded, doesn't that violate relativity? The earth is moving awfully fast through the universe, not only rotating around it's own axis rather quickly but also orbiting the sun, to say nothing of our entire solar system orbiting the center of our galaxy, etc. How the hell can a ward be attuned to an absolute position in space, when we're constantly changing position at rather frightening speed, dependent on frame of reference?

~Umidori

Welcome to the Course: Magic and Relativity!
Step a: Chose one.
Step b: Disregard the other
Step c: ????????
Step d: PROFIT!

Just to point out, the minimum volume of a ward is about 4.2m^3, as the at least 1 meter in every direction implies a sphere with a radius of 1 meter. By the same token, the smallest cube shaped ward would be 8m^3 (2mx2mx2m).

This video very clearly explains the difficult mechanics involved to make sure that wards work, but only when stationary.

Yes, under the right circumstances. For example, you can ward an ISO shipping container. The ward travels with the container. (this was per the guy who wrote the ward rules) If you stack up a bunch of warded shipping containers you have a large obstacle that is a ward. You could actually build a structure out of them. Though in theory a spirit might be able to ooze through the gaps.

In SR3 you could, in theory, ward your armor. However I never found a GM who was sucker enough to let me get away with that.

Basically, the rules are wrong: wards are 'portable', for a given definition.

On the other hand, if you have several containers, you can just wrap one big ward around all of them . .

I've always assumed that the major magical security providers could do things like tie together a bunch of wards cast by multiple mages into what was a single ward for all purposes. Not supported by any of the rules, but it just made sense to me.

Is there a quotable source for this contradiction of the rules? Typically I'd go with the SR4A over the Street Magic, except in cases of direct rule expansion, but seeing as the SR4A rules are so vague, and seeing as I have two people basically saying that the Street Magic rules are outright wrong, I'm a little lost as to what to think.

I guess what I'm asking is, if wards are 'portable' for a given definition, what is that given definition?

Oh and yes, 4.2m^3 or 8m^3. Simple mistake, thank you for catching that.

~Umidori

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=14186

Demonseed Elite is the writer.

They're portable if you consider anything that big to be 'portable' (e.g., is a car portable?). They certainly can be moved.

We've also been over this in *recent* threads at least three times, so I'm sure there's lots of info in those.

kzt, maybe I missed it, but where in there does it say anything about wards being 'portable'?

~Umidori

Well, the Dumpshock forums search feature is atrocious. It's really got to be the single worst, ineffectual search function I've ever seen. And after scanning the first half dozen most recent pages of posts looking for a likely thread (most of which are originally about a completely different topic than what I'm looking for anyway), I tend to figure I've wasted enough time myself, someone who knows the answer can take a minute or two to share.

~Umidori

Oops. The actual post was on his blog, which is gone. However, here is an on-topic post from him on it.
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?s=&a...st&p=437352

On Mobile Wards:

I've finally gotten a chance to look over a print copy (well, a PDF copy) of this section. I think I definitely wasn't clear enough here, to the point where I was even confusing myself. This is something I'll want to take back to FanPro if there's any sort of official errata, but here's my non-official take for the time being.

Wards can be mobile, but not portable. Confused yet? smile.gif In other words, it's all right if the entire warded space moves, but you can't shift an anchor in an attempt to re-locate a ward.

For example, you can ward a cabin on a space station hurtling around the Earth. You can ward the cabin on a plane. You can ward a crate travelling on a ship. While all those spaces are moving, there's a fixed and constant definition of the warded space.

What you couldn't do is, for example, ward the object in the crate, then open up the crate, take the physical anchor out of the crate and stuff it in your pocket, and attempt to bring the ward with you. You've broken the fixed concept of the warded space. Similarly, while you can ward an airplane using a physical anchor inside it, you can't just ward a bracelet and have a ward bubble following around the person wearing it.

IMO this is just a repetition of the rules in the BBB: The anchor must not move from the position it had when the ward was created relative to the ward.

As for seaching DS, you can just google for "something site:forums.dumpshock.com"

So the way I'm reading that "On Mobile Wards" bit is that so long as the region being warded is physically constrained, the entire assemblage can be portable. So for example...

You have a box, 2m x 2m x 2m, minimum cubic ward size. You glue a rock to the bottom of the box and use the rock as the anchor in order to ward the interior space inside the box. You can pick up the box and move it around, and the ward remains intact.

Compare that with...

You have a rock on the ground, which you use as the anchor for a ward which extends outward and upwards, such that it covers the same 2m x 2m x 2m space. However, this space is open to the air and is not physically constrained. Such a ward cannot be moved (aside from the normal motion of the earth spinning and all that).

Now, how to reconcile this?

Let's say you pick up the anchor rock. The rock is casting an astral shadow onto the astral plane, and that astral shadow is attuned to a certain ward matrix that extends into the space around the shadow - a proximity field, let's call it.

In the first case, the proximity field extends from the rock to the interior edges of the box. So what does that look like on the astral? Well, physical objects cast shadows of themselves. These shadows aren't strictly tangible, but they presumably don't ever overlap - because physical matter never overlaps either. So when you have a rock in a box, you have a shadow system comprised of two different shadows - the rock shadow and the box shadow. The ward then ties the two together, and the interveneing space is protected.

In the second case, the proximity fields extends from the rock outward a preset distance. But the proximity field is only tied to a single astral shadow - that of the rock which serves as anchor. What if you picked up that rock, and set it down right next to a building? What would that look like on the astral? Suddenly, the ward's proximity field is bumping up against the astral shadow of the wall. The matrix which makes up the ward is suddenly contending with interference from outside shadows that it hasn't been attuned to deal with. Does the proximity field stop at the wall? Does it pass through it as if it wasn't there, extending to it's preset distance?

Now imagine instead you've got the rock-in-box ward. You pick up the box and move it whereever you like, but the presence of the box's physical walls will always provide a stable, static astral shadow box to neatly contain the proximity field of the ward. The interior space that the ward occupies doesn't change, and short of destroying the box or knocking one side of it or something, the physical box keeps out other physical objects, thus keeping out other astral shadows. In comparison, the "interior space" of an open air ward could be drastically changed by, say, sticking the anchor rock in a too small box, whose astral shadow would likewise be too cramped to house the ward properly.

I guess it kinda works to think of it like a liquid? If you could have a gallon of milk in a gallon sized jug, and another gallon of milk just floating in midair via antigravity or whatever, intuition would suggest that the jugged milk would be easier to move than the free milk. The jugged milk is always constrained, always kept within certain confines and parameters, always held in place and even protected by the jug which delineates it. But if you levitated the free milk around, the moment it bumped into anything else it would be scattered and unconstrained.

...this is all just me trying to make sense of this, mind. If anyone else has a better line of thinking, please share, I admit this is kind of simplistic and crude and possibly not terribly well thought out conceptualizing on my part.

~Umidori

The problem is that the wards rules don't really require anything like 'edge anchors'. You can make a ward in an open field, or even midair, based on one anchor (apparently). This is kind of a problem. Either you allow 'portable' wards, or you require some configuration of 'edge anchors'.

2nd edition rules don't cover the mobility of a ward. Need to dig out my 3E stuff and look.

Did wards even exist in 1E?

EDIT: 3E seems to have some decent wording:

A ward must be placed on a non-living thing (walls, a
vehicle, rocks and so on). A ward cannot be moved from its
physical component to another location.

It's a tricky subject and I am totally willing to admit that the wording in the first printing of Street Magic is a bit confusing (note: I have no idea if it was improved in the second printing). I was pulled in to write that chapter late in the process when the original freelancer had to back out and there was already a lot of back-and-forth debate among the freelancers about wards. Astral mechanics are one of the reasons I think Shadowrun needs a complete reboot; it gets messy when you want to support all the things that existed in Shadowrun's history.

Open-air wards aren't really a problem, the problem is there's no easy way to move them. But they are moving constantly as the Earth spins. You just can't transport them like you could a contained ward like a shipping container. That's not because of the ward, it's because it is a bit challenging to move open-air spaces.

In the case of putting a box over a stone anchor to an open-air ward, that's not really an issue either. Astral shadows are insubstantial, the ward will continue to extend beyond the astral shadow of the box. Now, if the box were also warded that would be a problem (because they are not insubstantial), but that's why you can't have nested wards.

I have three related questions:

1. Is wards not overlapping an optional rule, or was it meant to be in the Core rulebook in the first place? If so why is there nothing about it (an added sentence or even a word) in the SR4A book?

2. If you place a ward inside a building or room (anchored to walls), can an astrally projecting magician see the ward from outside the building? If not, can he peek inside carefully and see the ward before he crashes into it, thereby triggering an automatic alarm and possibly wasting his Sustained spells (in foci)?

This issue has come up in 3 of my SR games, but I can't find anything about it. I assume that if it is possible for a corp (etc) to make wards inside buildings that are not visible from the outside, this is preferred.

3. Wards and society: How common are wards? Can I expect to do my daily life with sustained spells without tripping over wards in the local supermarket? Can I sue a nightclub for discriminating against magicians/awakened because they have warded it, and I need to recast my spells, which might cause my bodily harm? (This is a hypothetical scenario). I know exceptions can happen, but what should I expect?

1--It is not labeled as an optional rule, though if you are not using any of the material from Street Magic it can be overlooked. In previous editions, I've had an entire building covered in a ward--then a smaller ward around a specific office. The balance didn't seem to be an issue, but I can see an onion-peel style ward structure where someone walks through a new ward in each door way would be boring and guaranteed effectively for someone to eventually fail. Making a player roll ten times just so they eventually run out of luck isn't fun and just slows down the game. As a GM I can find much more exciting ways to challenge a character.

2--I generally say if folks want to be overt about magical security, they put the ward on the outside. If they want to be subtle, put it on the inside of the wall. That said, if the mage expects a ward and goes slowly, I let them see it before crossing through--or get the Perception test in the case of Alarm wards etc.

3--For me, I presume wards are a standard part of astral security. That said, they exist in places where you need to keep most people out. It won't be at the supermarket for the general market. A F3 ward over the back-office as part of the security contract, sure. Nightclubs have the right to refuse service, so if they ward the entire building to keep out astral activity, it's fair game. Most businesses won't ward huge areas, unless they are limiting access. If they want to screen for sustained spells, putting a ward on the foyer, along with MAD sensors etc, then everyone is warned to expect security at the front door.

In short--public areas don't have wards. Secure areas do have wards.