And yet a SMG will still usually outperform the adept. So while sonic may be the best elemental strike power it is pretty much making a crap option a little less crappy. And don't get me started on a simple stun bolt spell.

Since it works like melee combat, the mage can also dodge and even default on it.

@Throwing: Why would ypou throw on the astral plane, when you can subdue. deals nice damage and prevents the spirit from launching another surprise attack.

While they lack the Dual-Natured Critter Power, "Spirits in physical form are in fact dual-natured, interacting with the physical and astral planes simultaneously" (SR4A p. 186), whereas "a character using astral perception is considered dual-natured, active on both the physical and astral planes simultaneously." (SR4A p. 191).
Spirits can and do fully interact with the physical world while being materialized whereas for astrally perceiving characters there is no interaction between physical stimuli (photons, sound etc.) and their sensory organs.
Additionally the Perception Skill of all spirits and the enhanced senses of some would not work at all if the spirit could not perceive the physical plane.

So it is pretty obvious that materialized spirits work differently form assensing metahumans. The easiest way to deal with it is to use the same rules as the dual-natured Critter Power.

Dakka: keep that in the broken rules thread... I'm addressing it here once then no more.

You're way out on a limb here for the first part. There is NO logical basis whatsoever for your argument in any means which understands the clear and simple meaning of 'cannot default on this skill'

Astral Combat (p122).... Default: NO, skill group: none.....
Description: "The astral combat skill is used to fight while in astral space, WHERE NORMAL COMBAT METHODS ARE NEXT TO USELESS"

You're saying you can default on an opposed skill check which outright states it CANNOT be defaulted on. What can I say... your logic is impeccable and completely unassailable... (what a joke). How does one argue with one who has no concept of the meaning of 'to default on a skill' and 'not all skills may be defaulted on'.

Lets take another goody in there... Assensing is also TRAINED ONLY and cannot be defaulted on. So you have a character who's somehow opened to the astral... not only are they completely clueless as to what is going on around them... they have no way to default on perception checks... let alone how to defend themselves.


As for the rest... spirits do NOT have the dual natured critter power. You assuming they do is a house rule... one most people do. As an astrally perceiving character I am simultaneously interacting with both the astral and the physical at the same time as well. The *ONLY* things with dual-natured as critter power... are critters which have no choice EXCEPT to ALWAYS be astrally active... they cannot turn it off or on whim they simply just always are trapped in both planes... it's the reason they suffer no penalties (and are the *SOLE EXCEPTION* allowed to use PHYSICAL COMBAT instead of Astral combat when attacked astrally. Yes even an adept with a sword interacting with a purely astral attacker enters into what I like to term a contest of wills (willpower + astral combat + weapon focus....).

Quite frankly... I only suggested this to the OP as a way that he might try and limit spirits if they're causing trouble. The -2 penalty is specific to the mage/adept astrally percieving while interacting with the physical. I was merely pointing out the two conditions are so analogous as it may work to consider treating them the same. (a mage/adept is normally 'trapped' in the physical... when he extends himself into the astral he takes a penalty on non-astral actions. A spirit is normally confined to the astral... when he extends to the physical, it may take a penalty on some of it's actions...

Here's where I'm different than you, I'm acknowledging it's a stretch to apply the penalty... but an understandable one to someone looking for a houserule to take some of the edge of spirits.

Maybe in terms of range, but certainly not in terms of actual damage dealt. Full Auto Narrow Bursts with ADPS ammo is nice, but getting crazy-high comparable damage with an unarmed adept (Critical Strike, Martial Arts, Strength, ect.) that ignores armor is superior.

And to build on Neraph's point (never thought I'd say that), try telling someone that he can't take his (fleshy, completely mundane looking) hands into the fancy cocktail party.

While adepts may not be better than sams in most situations, they certainly have their uses.

~R~

Yes. But it can be done as well and with a lot more flexibility by a mage. He can also walk into that same party. It's a lot easier to take out that sniper 300 meters away with stunbolt than critical strike, and stunball is a lot better at taking down a room full of armed guys than Mr "I run up and punch him with critical strike".

Beeing dual natured does not mean you have normal sight. (Ghouls are one example)

This is a problem in general with shadowrun and it is often a problem with games adding additional material in every aspekt in later books.
(Opposed to those, which have one Magic book, one "chargen-book", one combat book etc.pp.)

Sometimes the templates you started with are subotimal for the stuff you want to add.
The spirit vision described in Runners companion does not really fit any vision type.
Well, with a bit good will, it is a description of astral perception. So it would be great if the book started with the attitude to write down every type of vision a character has.
Humans: Normal.
Elves: Night vision.
Trolls: Infrared and normal.
(Or may be differently but it does not really matter)

If spirits can see normally is never really said or countered. There are some examples (some in novels ) which point you in one direction and there are some pointing in the other dirctions

You did not get my point at all. Of course you cannot default on the a skill check using astral combat. What you can do however, as astral combat works like melee combat, is use INT+Dodge. If you use a Dodge check you can default on that skill.

No, the astrally perceiving character does not fully interact with the physical plane. He cannot perceive the physical plane at all. He is only (magically) active on both planes. A spirit however is said to interact with both planes simultaneously. If id didn't, it could not use the Perception skill or its enhanced senses ever.


I did not object this houserule, I objected you saying that the perception of the physical plane was only hinted at in later books.

@Irion: Ghouls only do not have physical sight because they go blind as part of their transformation. As they have the dual-natured Critter Power, they can perceive the physical world with their other senses. Whether an astrally perceiving metahuman is blind or not he can never see, hear, smell, touch or taste the physical plane.

Actually it is said that spirits have normal senses. They interact simultaneously with both planes. That includes photons sound waves etc. An astrally perceiving metahuman cannot do that. For him it is astral perception or physical perception. Never both.

I do not need to see, in order to interact.
There are several possible interpretations. But to include a special spirit vision, suggested in RC, is something I do not like.

And it is also impossible to use two kinds of perception at the same time. Only one. Thats how the rules work.

Photons and sound waves are part of the physical world. The sensory organs of an astrally perceiving metahuman cannot interact with them.
For astrally perceiving metahumans you are right. Creatures with the dual natured critter power are different though:

Since spirits do interact with the physical world they need to work like creatures with the dual-natured critter power.

Loving all the discussion. We're in a session right now an wondering where the rules are for how SnS affects spirits.

A blind man can interact with the physical world as a "normal" man can. Those photons interact with him two.
Just because you do not have eyes...

And it is not part of beeing a dual natured creature to see or to hear...

However you take it, the paragraph in the free spirit section even tells explicitly, that spirits do NOT see like normal people do.

Again, I do not care what it is or how it should be.
All I am saying is, that it is not said in the book. And that the only way to make such things CLEAR from the start is to introduce several kind of visions and just add them to every critter/methuman /drone whatever.

Dual natured RAW-wise only means, that you can use astral perception to navigate to see in the physical world with any distraction modifier. THATS ALL.
An other (unmentioned problem, because it does not matter rulewise) is, that two or even three sights do not overlap good.
If you add heat, normal, ultrasound and astral vision, you won't see much at all. Those will all layer on top of each other, until you can't see anything.
So by the rules you can only use one kind of vision at a time. (Or how else would you read the visible penalty table...

A ghouls with cybereyes can see the physical plane quite well, thank you very much.

So what is your point? A ghul with cybereyes loosing the dual natured quality can see the physical plane quite well, too...

So somehow I think the word of interest here is "cybereyes"...

Ghouls don't stop beign Dual-Natured because they get Cybereyes.


No.

The concept of interest is, "not all ghouls are blind." Ghouls go blind because they develop cataracts, not because of any neurological deficiency. Replace the eyeballs with something that won't develop cataracts again, and they can see just fine. (And as PCs, have to buy off their blindness.) Such a ghoul sees the physical and the astral simultaneously.

They can hear your pain on both planes simultaneously.

Except photons from electronic screens, because that makes sense.

EDIT:

ItNW is simply armor - it is halved by elemental effects just like all other armor.

Unfortunately there is that.

Yup, elemental effects form mundane sources (SnS, incendiary grenades etc.) Against elemental effects from spells or critter powers ItNW does not work at all.

Well, it can work, just normally doesn't. A F8 spirit hit with 1 net success on SnS ammo will still ignore it, but yeah, normally it becomes a non-issue. I use the mental image of Sauron, Dark Lord materializing in front of a rent-a-cop and getting tazed into disruption as he does his monologue.

@_Pax._
Depends on their essence score, but I guess they do in 90% of the cases.

@Neraph

Somehow I think the poor guy writing it, did not know if spirits should have normal vision or not. There are (if you go through all editions, since it is a fluff question) proves for either side I guess. Thats why I said, it is great if such stuff is done in advance and not the second a "race" becomes playable...

Only if they are otherwise awakened and have a Magic Rating of 2 or greater. Otherwise any essence robbing implant will reduce their magic rating from one to zero making them mundane and not dual-natured. Now with 1% awakened and the lack of ghoulpocalypse, there shouldn't be any awakened ghouls.

So back to the SnS stuff briefly... does that only work if a spirit actually Materializes? Or will it work if they simply Manifest? Because they're supposedly intangible while Manifested, no? Would an elemental effect harm them though, despite the fact physical damage won't?

~Umi

Manifested entities (spirits, projecting mages) are only perceivable from the physiscal plane. They are not active on the physical plane. As such the cannot be harmed by any effect on the physical plane or affect anything only active on the physical plane. They cannot perceive the physical plane either.

That's right. Manifestation only means making Yourself(the astrally mage or the Spirit) visible to mundanes.they remain in Astral Space
only when Spirits are materialised they can affect the physical World( and Vice Versa)

with a jinxed Dance
(after looking to Dakka Dakkas Post )
Medicineman

I don't believe Ghouls are precluded from raising their Magic Rating, even if not specifically Awakened. Or there's always the case of the cybereyes being present before being infected.

So a few more questions, somewhat different topic. Was reminded of it because I was wondering if it is ever possible to detect astral spirits without becoming astrally active yourself (or using manatech).

So on that note, what are the proper uses of the Adept Power Magic Sense?


I'm being thrown by a few things here.

First, it says that its operation "detects magic on the same plane" (as the adept, presumably). But then it says it operates as the Detect Magic Spell.


The spell doesn't differentiate between which plane the caster or the magical subject being detected is on at all. It clearly picks up ALL spells (not just physical spells in the physical plane and just astral in the astral), it picks up ALL mana barriers regardless of if the user is only active on the physical where they don't actually have an effect, it picks up ALL foci (even inactive?), and it picks up ALL spirits, whether in physical or astral form.

Furthermore, there are direct contradictions. The power says it detects dual natured beings, while the spell says that Awakened characters or critters are not detected (presumably intended to convey that you can't detect magical power that isn't active, but dual-natured critters ARE active magically).

I just... what the hell is going on here? Better question, since the only way an adept of any sort can ever enter the astral is via a dose of Shade, what the hell are they going on about detecing magic "on the same plane" for? You can't GET on the astral except via a rare and expensive alchemically produced magical compound that only crops up in one book and is an extreme exception! Why would they differentiate in the first place? Are they perhaps intending it to work on the astral only when you're astrally perceiving? And why would they explain how it works, and then say it operates like the spell which works completely differently than how they just explained it?



~Umi

Either it works perfectly, bypassing hardened armor or it doesn't. It's the GM call because it's never made clear in the game what the hell they mean. I think allowing it to bypass armor is stupid (mostly as those little prongs are not going to penetrate the 12/12 armor on the spirit) , but I also think that spirits are far too easy to get far too tough, so I understand the reasoning. I've never had a GM who would buy it.

It's another example of really terrible rules writing.

Don't you just love the clear writing and well thought-out rules in this game?

We need SR5. That's all there is to it.

Start fresh, scrap everything, build a new set of rules from scratch. Hell, even reboot the timeline if you like, the world lore can get just as weird and contradictory as the rules.

~Umi

Absolutely wrong. The rules are abundantly clear on this, and you're blurb about "prongs" is completely irrelevant.

ItNW is treated as Hardened Armor of a value. Hardened Armor is Armor that ignores any damage that is converted to stun. Elemental effects halve armor. So you have an elemental effect that halves armor, which includes Hardened Armor, which ItNW is. It's a logical progression of rules, nothing more.

1) The spell and power both work on the same plane as the user. No spell or power can be used on both planes at the same time.

2) Dual-natured means active on both planes at the same time, whether through the Dual-Natured power or actively Assensing. This is different from simply having a magic rating. I don't know how you got confused by this.

3) For last paragraph.... They are detecting magic on the Physical Plane, where they currently are. It has nothing to do with the Astral Plane. I think you really confused yourself somehow.

EDIT: If you have the Power or the Spell and change which plane you are paying attention to (Mage that Assenses while the spell is active) nothing about the spell/power changes. You would have to recast a version of the spell for the Astral, in the case of Mages. In the case of Adepts, the power would only include the Astral if (s)he were actively Assensing (using Astral Sight power) or Dual-Natured.

"Immunity to Normal Weapons: This immunity applies to all
weapons that are not magical (weapon foci, spells, adept or critter
powers). If the critter has the Allergy weakness, then the Immunity
does not apply against non-magical attacks made using the allergen."

Can you explain exactly how S&S is magical? Given that a spirit has exactly zero impact armor, how much do they have after it is divided? And where it says that magical defenses that render someone immune should be divided?

And yes, S&S uses glue, which has it's own logical issues (like most body armor and clothing is not a conductor), I was thinking of tasers. Which typically also work just fine for people using that same rules interp. People also use S&S & tasers against drones, which has even more logical issues. Mostly involving the issue that tasers don't stick to armored vehicles worth a damn and even paint tends to have a rather drastic effect on conduction.

It's house rules all the way down.

Citation please.


I wasn't aware that I was confused by it. What gave you this impression? Please quote what I wrote that suggested this to you.


Really. So how exactly does the spell detect wards and magical lodges - constructs that do not exist on the physical plane? They may incorporate physical objects, namely their anchors and the magical goods required to create a lodge, but as magical constructs themselves they only exist on the astral. For that matter, the spell also states it detects ALL spirits within range, not all spirits which are physically active. This would include astral spirits.

Nothing in the spell's wording denotes any limitations of detection to one plane of existence or another. If a separate rule designates such a limitation, please cite it.

~Umi

SnS is not magical, so ItNW works. Contrary to the name it is not actual immunity but hardened armor against mundane attacks, read the rules about immunity above those you quoted. The hardened armor works just like any other hardened armor. If the damage from the SnS projectile exceeds the modified armor rating you have to roll, if not the projectile does nothing. This means that SnS (6S(e)) would work normally against any spirit up to and including Force 6. Above that you need more than one net hit.

Really? This is SR Magic 101. Here you go:

You may want to look at the rules for wards and lodges. Both are dual-natured mana barriers. They exist on both planes. An astral spirit however can only be detected by the spell if the spell is cast on the astral plane.

See above.

You are correct, a spell cast in the physical world can only be cast on physical targets, and one cast in the astral on astral targets. You are also correct on the wards count, it seems.

That said, once cast on a valid target, the effect of the spell in question is that the target gains a form of psychic sense which operates as described in the spell description. And the spell description clearly states it detects "all foci, spells, wards, magical lodges, and spirits within range of the sense".

If we apply your interpretation to other spells, similar questions arise. Does Detect Enemies not detect astral spirits who are out to kill you? Does the Detect Individual spell not pick up astral spirits who are otherwise legal targets? And what if you Detect a specific Individual who is currently astrally projecting? Do you merely detect their body?

~Umi

That is a advantage and it is not nearly as big as people make out since you can get a lot of guns past security. Seriously orc with a 12 strength, 6 levels of critical strike, 3 levels of martial art DV does 15 DV. Sounds awesome and yeah it is 0 armor with sonic hands, but a guy with a SMG doing a simple long burst is doing 9 DV with 4 AP assuming APDS. The guy with the SMG will be rolling more dice, against less dice and then if he feels like it and the target is still up he can put another 4 rounds into the target or a second target. Will the martial art guy do more damage to a single target, well maybe but he is a pretty absurd exaggerated build for one purpose. SMG guy will probably kill more people in a combat thanks to range and complex vs simple action issues and he invested a lot less into being SMG guy then martial art guy did into giving himself deathblows. The thing is yeah he does a few extra DV well maybe not resisting 15 vs resisting 9 and 7 anyways even if we assume he does more damage so what, you generally only need to do 10ish boxes and a SMG gets you there a whole heck of a lot easier and quicker.

High DV martial art dude does have some other perks mainly a better chance to penetrate hardened armor, so if you need to take out a bus and he somehow can connect it will be more effective than a SMG. But this is far from broken. Investing a crap ton to be marginally better than random street sam X with a modified SMG does not scream broken to me. Unless you are saying the melee rules are broken they make a melee character nigh unusable without having to jump through a million hoops, and since they are a part of the genre they should be better represented.

... absolutely hosed by a Demolish Guns spell.

... frisked at the door for weapons anywhere remotely important anytime he isn't breaking and entering.

~Umi

If casting a spell and using a Power can't break the Planes Barrier (with the notable exception of Astral Gateway) than what makes you think the spell/Power effect can? Do Stunballs affect all spirits that happen to be in the Astral AoE when the spell is cast on the Physical? How about the inverse?

In short: no.

That, too. While you might get away with bringing a pistol, especially a holdout - or a cybergun - into a nice restaurant or whatever, trying it with an SMG is just asking to be escorted to the door by a large, burly troll who is NOT smiling.

You cannot target the astral spirits unless you are astrally active, but if you target Joe Spelltarget who's standing in the middle of a group of astral spirits, I don't see why it wouldn't affect them all.

The inverse should also hold. And why not? It's a mana spell - it affects the target's life force directly. It's not like Stunbolt or Manabolt cast on the physical plane actually operates through a physical mechanism. It's operating astrally, shredding the target's mana and lifeforce. That's why they kill cleanly - they don't have an actual physical effect.

~Umi

The nicest way I can think of to say this is: You're just wrong.

That's fine if I am. I've been known to make mistakes.

I genuinely would like to know if I am. I'll peruse the rules, see if I can spot my error, but if anyone can direct me to a spot that proves me wrong quicker than I can browse, would be great.

~Umi

The quickest thing I can think of is how spells worked in 3rd Ed. I can't remember a specific place where it definitively mentions this in 4th, but I'll work on it.

EDIT: It's like trying to prove something by Circumstantial Evidence..

Yes. You can't damage astral entities from the physical world and astral entities can't damage anything on the physical world. You have to be active on the astral plane to damage anything there, and at that point astral entities can damage you and vice versa.

The thing is that, while the caster can be dual-natured and thus affect either plane, spells are not (never mentioned as such). Thus they can only affect one plane even though the caster may be able to target both planes.

A demolish spell? The mage would have better odds just stunbolting me, why would he blow up your SMG.

As for frisked at the door, yeah if your big thing is I can use my stuff anywhere um good for you. The average street sam will still be effective in that narrow range of getting in a fight after being checked by security. But he will be better for less at every other fight option, the stuff that comes up more often. And there are a lot of guns you can get past most security, if it is a full pat down at every door I suspect you and I play different games. And it is not like there aren't things that limit magic in a similar way. Background count will but a hit in this guys power just as much as having to switch to a small concealable weapon will crap the style of a street sam.

This is far from a broken power. And sadly this is comparing it to the closest archetype. His look at me I can do this anywhere thing looks kind of lame compared to a mage.

@kzt and Dakka

Again, please, where does it say that?

I'll certainly concede you can't target astral forms without being able to see them, which requires astrally perceiving and being astrally active. But how does it make any sense for a mana spell, something which doesn't actually manifest on the physical plane, something which damages foes by shredding their astral auras and mana matrixes, to not affect astral forms caught in the radius by chance?

~Umi

For one, Demolish is AoE.

For two, the mage almost certainly isn't working alone. When a pair of F5 spirits materialise next to the SMG wielder, well, let's just say "someone's about to have a very bad day."


MAD scanner. Explosive sniffer.


Background count is goin to be a lot less common than metal detectors.

Unfortunately in virtually every combat niche for adepts there are other people who just do it better and/or cheaper. Mostly mages, but bioware guys can do a lot of it too, not to mention the "less refined" option of cyber.

It really depends on the sort of game you play. You said it yourself, "in virtually every combat niche."

Short of breaking in, a cybered up bruiser is NEVER getting into a high security area without having their 'ware deactivated or even removed. A bioware guy can keep most of his mods undetected, but he isn't going to get a katana or an SMG in - hell, he might not even get a pistol in. So unless you're a bioware brawler who fights unarmed, no dice.

If you play the sort of game where most of the time you're just shooting or skulking your way in, that's fine. More power to ya. Other folks might play games where they enter into negotiations with high level crime bosses or corporate managers, or where they need to hide in plain sight or get inside high security areas without raising any eyebrows or tripping any alarms.

Adepts might be less than optimal for running and gunning, and your campaigns might consist chiefly of that sort of gameplay. But for those who play with a greater focus on outwitting foes rather than outgunning them, Adepts are amazing. Busting into a corporate research lab, making off with vital data, and neutralizing any security you encounter on the way without taking a hit is good. Walking into the lab and discreetly copying the needed data without anyone suspecting a thing, AND still being able to fight very well (if not as amazingly well as a street sam) if the shit does hit the fan, is even better.

~Umi