I need some clarification on these rules. The WAR book clearly contradicts itself. On the High-Powered Ammo, it states " High-power rounds
inflict a –2 dice pool penalty when fired due to excess recoil." I have some people telling me that because it is a dice pool penalty that I cannot mitigate this with RC. But the description clearly states that it is due to recoil, so additional recoil compensation should reduce this penalty.

Which is correct? Can it be reduced with additional recoil comp?

We allow that High-Recoil Penalty to be reduced by Recoil Compensation, it is, after all, Recoil. But it is an additional Recoil Modifier of -2 PER ACTION. So, For Example, a Short burst would be a -4 (rather than -2), and the 2nd Short Burst would be a -5 (rather than -3). Or for SA it would be -2 (1st Shot) and -3 (2nd Shot).

Does that help?

I've had it run against me the other way. Recoil comp wasn't allowed to help when got a bunch of them off a bunch of azzie goons. So it's 100% up to your GM how he wants to handle it.

The catch is it's not explicitly defined as a recoil modifier, only hinted at. So the rules are grey enough to be read either way as the GM sees fit.


Also TJ fails to emphasize that recoil is CUMULATIVE across a round... so the first burst is at -4 in his example.. the second burst is at -9 total.



That makes me wonder if I could try and pull a 'high power chambering' mod off on an assault cannon.... since they tend to be single shot... the best available ammo besides stock is only ap-3 extra. The double uncompensated sucks... but getting 2 points RC to cover single shot doesn't seem too bad. But the extra +2/-1AP beats the socks off of -3AP available otherwise. Only catch I can think of is anti-tank rounds on the same page are already only available for small arms according to the GM (despite the fluff including assault cannons under large bore weapons... because 170nuyen per 10 shots was rediculously cheap compared to the cost for the AV AC rounds (-1/-3 @ 2500/10) or even normal assault cannon ammo at 450 per 10).

It is cumulative, in the sense that it is -4 and then -5 (for a total of -9 ; -2 HP -2 for 1st Burst; -2 HC and -3 2nd Burst)... it is not cumulatiuve in that it is -4 and then -9 (for a total of -13). So, for a weapon that has a total of RC 5 (for all mods/Strength, etc), the penalties would be -0, and -4 (4 of the RC applied to the 1st shot, but only the remaining point applied to the 2nd Shot).

Did not think that needed emphasis before, though, since that is how it normally works.

Well, I was hoping for a more definitive answer, but since I am the GM, I will be playing it the way I read it... as a penalty that can be reduced by RC. Thanks for the info!!

ehmmmm,Welll, Hmmm
the First Shot is always recoil free, only the second shot gets a recoilmod
so it should be 1st Shot - , 2nd Shot -3

with a Recoilless Dance
Medicineman

I think your primary problem is that you're using War! to begin with...

~Umi

after a while You learn to dance with the Devil

He who dances under the pale Moonlight
Medicineman

Not with High Powered Ammunition... They suffer an additional -2 due to high recoil.

Recoil is the force exerted on the weapon and the weapon handler by the detonation of a round's explosive propellant. It doesn't occur until after the round is fired (or technically, concurrent with the firing of the round, but the majority of the recoil effect manifests after the round has left the barrel).

If you have yet to fire a round, you cannot possibly suffer recoil. First shot never has recoil.

~Umi

TJ: I know you know it's cumulative. But ESPECIALLY when dealing with newbies... and even old salts... I've found that I can't take that for granted. Many people don't get that recoil increases by +1 for each bullet fired in a pass after the first and it starts a huge argument. So I prefer to make sure that everyone knows it right away because the authors did a lousy job of making the cumulative nature clear. (and made it worse with SR4a... with only an example on p154 now... and the question answered again in the FAQ. When the word cumulative was clearly used in prior printings on a different page from 'recoil' itself of course just to make sure most people got it wrong *sigh*)


Umi & medicineman: No, the high powered rules say you ALWAYS suffer the -2. There is no provision in there for first shot is free. That was my point... it's not explicitly defined as a "recoil modifier" like those mods are defined everywhere else they come up, so it's unclear whether or not recoil comp can counter it. I lean on the side of it's recoil... so let it RC do it's job (makes sense, you don't fire a high power rifle without shouldering it as the gun will jump uncontrollably when you pull the trigger). The *ONLY* source of recoil in the basic rulebook is from firing multiple rounds... until 'War' there were no other sources of extra recoil, war adds a new one... anytime you fire a weapon with a high power chambering mod.

"High-power rounds inflict a -2 dice pool penalty when fired due to excess recoil." It states it directly, the modifier is always present... if the authors were bloody consistent (every other rulebook uses 'recoil modifier' explicitly to describe the -mods which come from it).

So if you have a semi-auto pistol. the correct mods are -2 for the first shot, then -5 for the second.

No, no, no. That "-2, then -5" bit there, defies your own logic. What you've done is, apply a -2 recoil to the first shot and then a -3 recoil to the second shot. That makes no sense at all.

...

If it ISN'T a "recoil modifier", if it's just a flat, always-on -2 penalty? Then it's not cumulative, as the High Powered rule itself never indicates it is. Thus, the modifiers would be "-2, then -3".

If is IS a "recoil modifier", then (a) the first bullet of a combat round never imposes a recoil modifier, and, the second shot would only cause a single -2 modifier - because the High Powered description does not say "an additional -2". Thus, the modifies would be "-0, then -2".

Excep that the HP Mod imposes a -2 automatic Recoil penalty even on the first round. You really should read the entry before telling me how it works.

Excellent catch Pax... but I am being consistent as I said I think it makes sense to allow recoil comp to compensate for it, in which case I'm lumping it in with all the other recoil mods which ARE cumulative. I'm just chalking it up to sloppy wording on the dev's part. (wouldn't be the first time!)

If it is only just another non-recoil situational modifier you are correct... -2 first shot, -2 -1 (recoil) second.

And the rules for recoil never say that. They never deal with high power chambering. They never mention the first bullet at all in any way! "Semi-automatic weapons that fire a second shot recieve a -1 dice pool modifier for the second shot only." It does *NOT* say there is *NEVER* any recoil on the first shot, it merely addresses the second shot and the extra recoil it adds after the first and *IGNORES* the first. The first shot is at a -0 recoil comp figure so there is no need at time of publishing... high power chambering changes that.


Challenge: cite me exact text which says the first bullet NEVER suffers a recoil penalty. I can't find it anywhere. It's a paraphrasing which was true so long as the ONLY source of recoil penalties was additional bullets. It ceased to be true when secondary sources of recoil entered the game.

The thing is, Falconer ... either the -2 from High Powered is not cumulative - meaning, it's not multiplied by the number of shots fired - or it should replace the standard recoil penalty, not add to it.

IOW, assuming no recoil compensation across multiple initiative passes, it should be either:

(a) -2, -3, -4, -5, -6, -7

--or--

(b) -0, -2, -4, -6, -8, -10

... even if you insist on imposing the modifier for the first shot as well (which runs contrary to every precedent in not just 4E, but all editions of Shadowrun) ... it would come out to "-2, -4, -6, -8, -10, -12".

Never, never, never "-2, -5, -8, -11, -14, -17".

Pax... recoil is refreshed at the end of each *IP* not each combat turn. ***Where are you getting half this stuff?!?!?!?!***
Further recoil modifiers are cumulative per pass minus recoil comp. You CANNOT fire more than *two* bursts per pass.
See I'm NOT playing favorites here... if it's recoil I'm treating it EXACTLY like all other recoil in the system. It's a special recoil modifier applied whether it's the first burst OR the second burst. (I'm defining burst as 1, 3, 6, or 10rd burst). I'm giving it all the benefits of recoil comp along with all the drawbacks if it is recoil.



So *IF* it is an additional -2 "recoil mod"... then yes -2 RECOIL first shot, -3 RECOIL second shot (cumulative to -5) offset by all available recoil compensation is the first reading I make (and think is the most likely that the authors intended).

This makes perfect sense if you consider the case of 2 short bursts from a HPC AR. In which case you adjust to -4 recoil first burst, -5 recoil second burst (cumulative to -9). Offset by all available recoil comp. Refresh at the end of each pass. Doing otherwise requires treating recoil substantially differently in the case of semi-auto than all other automatic fire modes.

Note: the approach is simple... mechanically identical, and resolved exactly the same way no matter whether you only fire a 1 round 'burst' or 3rd. It's nicely elegant and matches the letter of the wording of the rules.


If it *ISN"T* a recoil modifier and just simply another situational modifier added to the combat chart. Then it's a binary decision are you firing high power chambering? Yes... apply -2 situational dice pool whether it's first or second shot. plus any uncompensated recoil on the first/second burst. Hence where I get with -2 HPC first shot, -2 HPC -1 Recoil == -3 (recoil comp can't drop the mod below -2 because HPC in this case is *NOT* a recoil mod and recoil comp can't compensate for it).

Under that reading of the modifier. It is no different than any other situational modifier. *IF* you fire a pistol in your off-hand. That is a -2 situational modifier. Assuming no other modifiers are in play... it's -2 for the first shot, -3 for the second shot (recoil comp can get you back a max of +1 die back). Exactly the same as above.

If it's both HPC and off-hand firing... now you're really hurting yourself... -4 first shot, -5 second. (-2 HPC, -2offhand, additional -1 offset by RC on 2nd shot).

You're arguing that it's NOT a situational modifier like every other modifier in the book... and it has some wierd application which only you can figure out because I can't make heads or tails of what you're asserting here.

Bah, so I used the wrong term - "combat turn" instead of "action phase". Sue me.


No, you're NOT treating it "EXACTLY like all other recoil". The recoil on the first shot is always zero. And it has been zero across all four and a half edition, for a quarter century.

You're treating it as it's own, special KIND of recoil. At least admit that much!


Re-read the description for High Powered Ammunition. Tell me where it says the word "additional".

...

...

That's right, it doesn't.



I'm acting like nothing of the sort. It's simply double recoil ... that is, -2 per bullet fired. (Starting with the second round, and IMO, only doubled when uncompensated ... just like from an HMG or Assault Cannon.)

YOU, however, aren't imposing a penalty of 2 per round, you're imposing a penalty of three per round, starting with the second. And that's patently ludicrous ... not to mention, in no way reflects the description of High Powered Ammunition.

You misunderstand me. I was talking about physics.

You could fire the biggest gun in the world and the recoil won't ever, couldn't possibly, affect your aim on that first shot. The recoil might be so huge it tears your arm out of your socket, making it damn hard to put the barrel back on target for the NEXT shot, but a weapon essentially cannot suffer recoil from the round it is currently firing, only recoil from previous rounds.

If the rule contradicts this, it's a dumbass rule. Given it's source, I'd say that'd be a given anyway.

~Umi

Whatever the writer intended, it clearly states you suffer -2 penalty when fired. Not -2 additional recoil penalty, not double recoil penalty (like HMG), not a cumulative -2 per shot beyond the first. You may argue that it is inconsistent and unrealistic and make a house rule, but that's still not what the text says. "Due to excess recoil" might just have said "due too blue balloons". It does not mean it affects the general rules for recoil in any way.

Oh, and the Elephant Rifle from SR4A state that it imposes a -1 recoil modifier if both barrels are fired simultaneously, so there IS a precedence for recoil on the first "shot". Granted, this is two shots, but if they happens at the same time, there would physically be no more recoil until after the shells leave the barrels. Rules wise this is essentually treated as a two-round narrow short burst.

You're right, rules wise it is a two-round narrow short burst. But the physical parallel is not hard to imagine.

It's a double-barrel rifle, with two triggers. You can pull both "at the same time", but in practical usage one barrel is going to fire slightly before the other because of how your hand and finger interact with the assembly. And while that intervening time may be very short, it's still long enough for there to be at least some recoil before the second round is fired. Moreover, actual historical usage of such double-trigger weapons included purposefully staggered trigger pulls, slow enough that there is at least some recoil and spread (which was actually advantageous in some situations), but also fast enough that it all occurs in one firing motion and shooters didn't attempt to put the barrel back on target (essentially compensate for the recoil) before firing the second round.

And even if you tried to get sneaky about it by converting to Electronic Firing to remove the human element of pulling two different triggers, the subsequent recoil compensation would counteract the recoiling effect anyway.

~Umi

Pax: say whatever you want... the rest of your post makes absolutely no sense unless you're trying to do it in your own words "across multiple initiative passes". You really should start READING the rules before pontificating on them.


Umidori: you're slightly off on that score.

Heavy recoil does adversely affect aim. it causes the weapon to move before the round leaves the barrel which throws off aim. Or causes lightweight barrels to flex. Even in a benchrest vice. Excessive recoil also causes many shooters to flinch. I agree to a point... I've actually seen this in person... training people on proper pistol technique using .22's for cheap ammo... then they switch to a 9mm, .45 or worse a magnum revolver... their first shot is dead on... after that they can't hit the broadside of a barn because they keep anticipating the recoil and flinching.

Just to give an example I saw while double checking my memory on the .30-06... Wiki
"One reason that the 30-06 has remained entrenched as an extremely popular round for so long is that the cartridge is at the upper limit of power that is tolerable to most shooters.[16][17] Recoil energy (Free recoil) greater than 20 foot pounds (27.1 joules) will cause most shooters to develop a serious flinch,..."

Speaking from a precision standpoint... heavy recoil on a gun (like say a .300 win mag) makes position far more important. From something like off-hand it's problematic... down prone with the bipod/sling not so bad. As it can significantly move your point of aim before the round leaves the barrel. Very important when you're dealing with less than a minute of accuracy at long ranges.

You're right though in a way... at that point you're getting really down into the weeds... so probably isn't overly relevant to the game at hand.

It says ( translated from Page 173 German Fronteinsatz which is my reference : )
Highpower Ammo causes a Modifier of -2 because of additional recoil.
If it is because of additional Recoil and the first shot is recoilfree,the Modifier occurs whenever normal Recoil occurs.
The Recoil mods are not 0 at first shot and -1 for the second shot
they are nonexistent (because you still have to fire) and -1 for the second Shot
This is how I interpret what I'm reading
its very similar to an Assault cannon
they suffer -1 Recoil due to being a Heavy weapon
And still the first Shot is free of recoil

Hough!
Medicineman

Recoil capable of doing this would have to be capable of tearing the arm(s) straight off a max-body Troll. Even a rifle with a 36" barrel, that's all of three feet. Bullets tend to be moving many hundreds if not THOUSANDS of feet per second.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.300_Remington_SA_Ultra_Mag

That's a "high powered" rifle round. It has a muzzle velocity of just under 3,000 feet per second - that means, there is roughly 1/1000th of a second delay between detonation of the propellant charge, and the bullet leaving the end of the barrel. One one-thousandth of a second. To throw someone's aim off, by moving the barrel even 1/16th of an inch ... good lord, man. Just contemplating the kind of forces involvd, gives me a headache.

It would literally rip your arm off.


That's still not actual recoil.

Pax:
I'm done trying to educate you. You're too set in your ways... you won't listen to someone who placed in the teens nationally with a rifle and has spent time test firing weapons with the army marksmanship unit. You know what you know and you're happy with your ignorance. (for the record... 1/16" jump at 2' == ~9 inches off at 100 yards... to say nothing of 500+). You also persist with other simplistic blatherings such as only 1ms in the barrel... actually the bullet starts form a dead stop and accelerates... it takes roughly 2ms for this to happen in a 2' barrel for all rounds exiting at ~3000fps. Proper follow through after pulling the trigger is still critical.




Medicine:
Please cite it... assault cannons don't have an automatic 1 recoil anywhere in the rules that I've ever seen. Give me an exact page and sentence cite. In fact, the shock pad on the BBB assault cannon is a joke because the gun is single shot and has no recoil for it's 1 point of built in recoil comp. Even the bit about doubled recoil only serves to screw MG's.

The original English text says the condition is "when fired" in that sentence and never once uses the word additional nor any other to that effect. Quote: "High-power rounds inflict a -2 dice pool penalty WHEN FIRED due to excess recoil". War p156. The word 'additional' never occurs, the only condition for the -2 penalty is 'when fired'. It sounds like there may be a translation error/difference in there or you're mistranslating it from german.

I can understand people debating whether it's a 'recoil modifier' or not... given the fuzzy mess that the writer adds by tossing on the last 4 words... if he just ended the sentence at 'when fired' it would be crystal clear. Instead it merely muddies the waters as to whether it's recoil and can be compensated for as recoil can be... or whether it's simply a negative situational modifier.

The feeling is mutual.


THAT IS EXACTLY MY GODDAMNED POINT.

It never says "additional" - yet, you're giving a -2 cumulative additional penalty for recoil - changing the recoil from -1, to -3, on every shot after the first.

Either it's just a static penalty of -2 (in which case a double-tap should result in a -2 penalty to the first roll, and -3 to the second) ... or it's a recoil modifier (in which case a double-tap should produce modifiers of -0 and -2 respectively).

Pax, Falconer I believe this is appropriate to the thread.

Maybe I didn't wrote it clearly or misunderstandingly (Sorry)
I'll try it differently
Assault Cannons have double Recoil penalty, but the First shot is recoilfree Recoil happens AFTER the first Shot
Highpowermodded Weapons have a -2 Recoil modifier,but the first Shot is just as recoilfree because they follow the same Rules.
To give a recoilmodifier before the first shot would be (ImO) breaking the streamlining of Weaponsrules
Its like saying.....
OK ,If You Fire a Burst with this new Weapon the DV is not +2 (like with all other Burst Weapons).
With this Weapon You add together the Damage(5p and AP-1) so a Burst with this (imaginery) Weapon is 15P AP-3


with a (hopefully) clearer Dance
Medicineman

No they don't- This is your houserule. They have a -2 dice pool penalty. Dice pool penalties don't follow the rules of recoil penalties. Until there is an errata on it, that's what it is. It's not the first time there have been exceptions in the rules, or even contradictions.

Medicine:
Don't worry about it... it became clear as soon as I saw your last post that there was some kind of language difference or barrier. I'm up to you til you hit the point of assault cannons have double uncompensated recoil just like all other heavy weapons. There's nothing in the rules which says that a weapon can't get a recoil penalty on the first shot for reasons OTHER THAN firing multiple rounds at once. What you're arguing that it is impossible to get any recoil whatsoever on a first shot anytime FOR ANY REASON. The rules never say this, they only say there's no recoil due to previous rounds fired on your first shot. This was not always true.

To bring things back full circle, what started this whole thing was the original posters question. "Can he offset the HPC modifier with recoil comp?". My answer to that is maybe, the HPC mod/ammo in War is written ambiguously, it could be either a recoil modifier OR a situational modifier. If it's recoil then yes it could (but it would also become a cumulative penalty like all other recoil is, meaning you'd need more RC for a second shot). If it isn't then well, it's a straight -2 penalty you can never do anything about. (I would prefer to treat it as recoil... as then you can negate the penalty and make the mod actually worthwhile, otherwise a flat -2 all the time is really bad).


To bring back a blast from the past. SR3 used an almost identical mechanic to resolve recoil and automatic weaponry. Automatic fire raised recoil by 1 per bullet (no -1 for first bullet free) offset by compensation. There was actually a way to shoot *1* bullet using a full-auto mode complex action, firing only a single round, and get -1 recoil.. but increasing the damage code of the weapon by 1! (an AK would go from 8M -> 9M with a single round if you did this... or you could fire twice and get 8M/8M if you single shot.... 11S/11S with bursts (-3, -6 recoil), in which case every round fired again counted against recoil comp, no first round free).

SR4 resurrected this system only it then added the extra -1 to all fire modes so that semi-auto/burst/full-auto all used the exact same recoil system and equation. Basically it made all the fire modes 'equal' and resolved in exactly the same manner. I asked a dev once why they used the chart with all the confusion it created... he said they thought it would make it simpler... haha anything but. Also verified that the math is exactly right. (every weapon in the game which fires multiples uses it... double barrels, 3rd bursts, hypervelocity, or miniguns).



What I see when I'm looking at this, is I see a new line-item added to the chart.
1. Am I running? yes, -2
2. Am I in melee combat? no
....
18. Am I firing semi-auto? yes, is this the first or second shot. -1 recoil modifier for second
19. Am I firing short burst? no
20. Am I firing long burst? no
21. Am I firing full burst? no
.....
25. Is the target at point-blank? yes, +2
26. What is the visibility modifier? Glare (-1)
....
27. Is the weapon HighPowerChamber? Yes -2 modifier (either recoil modifier or a non-recoil situational modifier... unclear which because of ambiguous wording).

Line 27 is a completely new line added by war... it doesn't care if you fired rounds before or after. Nowhere in the rules does it say you CAN'T have recoil on your first shot. You just can't have recoil due to volume of fire of previously fired bullets. The logical test is only... are you firing a HPC weapon? "When fired" apply a -2 modifier.

I normally collapse step 18-21 going down that chart into a single... recoil mod == (1 - rounds fired this pass)

This is the clearest spot in the rules I've yet found regarding recoil on the first shot. The rules for bursts simply state a flat modifier for each burst (with wording that unfortunately doesn't suggest the cumulative nature of recoil), and even the general Recoil sub-section in the Ranged Combat section of SR4A doesn't get this specific.

It clearly says the first shot is unmodified by recoil. Not that it has a recoil modifier of zero. It is unmodified. The rest of the recoil rules regarding other modes of fire presumably operate on the same concept as Semi-Automatic fire, because they do not indicate otherwise.

~Umi

And yet, HIGH POWER AMMUNITION/CHAMBERING CHANGES THAT. Assuming the Weapon has such a modification. Why is that so diffidult?

Because the High Power Ammunition ruling is so blastedly ambiguous about whether it is recoil or not. Why is THAT so difficult?

~Umi

It is BLATANTLY stated as a dice pool penalty due to Recoil (Imagine that, Recoil inflicts Dice Pool Penalties). It is blatantly stated that it applies whenever the weapon is fired. THIS INCLUDES THE FIRST SHOT. Some people say that it is ambiguous, but I do not see it that way. Now, You COULD infer that it is simply a Dice Pool modifier, that is not affected by RC. Your choice. Either way, you end up with the same Modifiers (when an HPC Weapon is fired), except that one can be offset by RC, and the other way cannot. Since, right in the description (that has been quoted more than once, but I will provide again) it states that the Penalty is due to recoil, well, then RC should apply. Here is the quote:



The only question is how you choose to interpret that. FriendoftheDork (and I imagine several others) sets it as a Dice Pool Penalty. We (and a few others) set it as a Recoil Penalty. Either method works. Choose one.

The Modifier can only be applied AFTER the Action
OK, another example
"Friend in Melee" gives You a +1 Mod
Lets assume a new Modifier "Trollfriend in Melee "which gives a +2 Bonus
but You can get the Bonus only AFTER the Trollfriend joins the Melee
(Not if he merely says so)
the same with the High Power Ammo
The recoil only happens AFTER the first Bullet leaves the Barrel
Thats why You can't apply the mod for the first Bullet
If You say that the new modifier also counts BEFORE the Action happens than it would mean that Your breaking the Rules System


For Me its a Recoil penalty, thats Why I say that it can be applied only after the first Bullet, because this first Bullets starts the recoil

With a Dance at the end of a Post
Medicineman

Dice pool or recoil penalty, RAWs clearly states "–2 dice pool penalty when fired". Do you fire gun for first shot? Yes. Ergo you suffer -2 penalty. QED.

Raw clearly states that the first shot is unmodified (by recoil)

Hough !
Medicineman

And? Common practice is that later rules supersede former rules, simply because later items were not around when former statement was made. Also - not applicable. Statement: -2 penalty when fired. Meaning really trully every damn time that gorram gun is fired, no single exceptions.

You're going to say that "War!", seriously, War! supercedes SR4A? Honestly?

It's not just that it's an incredibly problematic book - it is so very badly written, with very little quality control, as many of the recent books have been. But unlike other books which expand the rules or in some places override them, such as Arsenal or Street Magic or Runner's Companion or whichever other ones I may have missed, "War!" fails to explicitly state that it overrides the prior rules.

It needs clarified. It is NOT clear how it should be interpreted. You cannot POSSIBLY argue that it is cut and dry, and that ANY OF US (that includes me!) actually has a clue how it is truly meant to be read, because logically it could be read numerous different ways.

This NEEDS to be fixed - either in an official errata, or even in just some sort of creator statement somewhere. This level of sloppiness in the rules has been growing more and more prevalent in recent books, and it ought to be utterly unacceptable, especially given the way they're pricing these texts.

~Umi

I said nothing like that, we are arguing one single case and in this I believe it so. Also I said that it is common practice not necessarily a rule.


There are (AFAIK) two main points that are argued in this thread:
1) is -2 a dice pool or recoil modifier? I recoil, can it be mitigated by recoil compensation?
2) whatever it is, does it apply to first shot?

For 1) yes, we can argue that it is not clear and I currently have no stance on that. My two nuyens in this thread were for 2), which is clear as blue sky - statement from RAW is "High-power rounds inflict a –2 dice pool penalty when fired due to excess recoil. when fired" emphasis mine. You can not read this sentence any other way, can you? When fired means when the gun is fired and every time the gun is fired, therefore even on a first shot.

The best reading of what is written there may indeed be "when fired" meaning every single time fired. But it is unfortunately modified by the words directly after it, "due to excess recoil".

Let's imagine there was a new type of blade weapon which was super sharp and the ruling said, "Extra Sharp Knives inflict a -2 dice pool penalty when a foe is struck due to excess wounding." If we read that statement with the same linguistic meaning that you are reading into the high power rule, we would assume that the knives always inflict the -2 dice pool penalty when a foe is struck. But the second part of the sentence, explaining why the penalty occurs, creates the ambiguity. What about if you hit them, but you don't beat their armor so it reverts to stn? What if they have hardened armor and they take no damage? What if they can't be wounded because they aren't living? How does this interact with normal wound modifiers?

And even if we assume that your reading of the rule as written is correct, can we safely assume that the rule itself isn't flawed? After all, given how often these ancillary texts mix up terms like Smartlink and Smartgun System, can we really assume that the person who wrote it actually understood the recoil rules properly and was purposefully intending to override them, AND did so without explaining that the new rule supercedes the old one and that this was done intentionally?

"High-power rounds inflict a –2 dice pool penalty when fired" would be fine on it's own, but when you add "due to excess recoil" to explain why the penalty occurs, that added reason needs to not contradict the standard operational parameters of the recoil system it is invoking as explanation. And if it does contradict the standard operational parameters, it needs to explicity state so.

~Umi

I, personally, think that it's meant to be a standard recoil modifier rather than a unique new rule, and it was just written very poorly.

There's a danger in reading too far into the specific precise wording of Shadowrun rules. And that's because some of the authors didn't write them with precision. In quite a few places in SR, things were worded in more casual "layman" language rather than specific precise terminology, with the (possibly erroneous) assumption that folks understood what was meant.




-k

My point exactly.

~Umi

Going by the path of least modifying of the rules, I'd assume the -2 was per bullet rather than the normal -1. Which goes hand in hand with machine gun rounds causing a -2 per point of uncompensated recoil. Agreed though that the rules for it are murkey at best.

However going by this scenario:

So going by the rule a 10 shot burst on full auto with an assault rifle with gas vent three, and a stock would be a -10 or if just a flat additional -2 penalty a -7.

In a three shot burst for the same weapon it would either be a 0 or -2.
In a six shot burst for the same weapon it would either be a -2 or -4.

Either scenario, dicepools (unless in the high teens) will be going down significantly reduced once the compensation is surpased.

I would look to the PJSS Elephant Rifle as firing both barrels is similiar to firing a more powerful round - even though the shots go off simultaneously the recoil still applies but it IS recoil.

I disagree with comparing it to a more powerful round. The PJSS operates exactly like a Narrow Short Burst without enough bullets. You are suffering one point of recoil, and gaining one point of damage, because you are firing one bullet beyond the first.

Furthermore, the PJSS explicitly states in uncontestable wording that it IS recoil, and hence it is subject to all the normal rules of recoil, including both recoil compensation and an umodified first bullet.

~Umi

Also, no the PJSS is not firing both barrels at the exact same time. There will be at least a (small) fraction of a second - even just a few milliseconds - between the two. Too small for you to pick it out by sound or sight, unaided - but on, say, high-speed video? The difference would be easily discernible.

Yes, in real life there would be delay however the rules state "at once" ie simultaneously.

Or perhaps when the rules say "at once", they mean "as part of the same action / attack" ...?

Speaking just as a lawyer, i dont fire guns, but it seems to me, the clear intent and logical interpration of the rule, is that it adds a +2 modifier when ever recoil would come into play. so it should be +0 for the first shot, because by rule, recoil does not apply, and plus 3 for the second shot, because the high powered bullet is increasing the effect of the recoil modifier by +2.

Well lawyers DO handle poor wording on a regular basis...



~Umi