If I wanted a system where bows are superior to guns/laser/antimatter rifles, I'd play D&D.
That said, bows are fine the way they are in Shadowrun.
Full Version: My first trollbow
QUOTE (Elfenlied @ Jun 11 2012, 02:11 PM) 
If I wanted a system where bows are superior to guns/laser/antimatter rifles, I'd play D&D.
That said, bows are fine the way they are in Shadowrun.
That said, bows are fine the way they are in Shadowrun.
Agreed...
QUOTE (Elfenlied @ Jun 11 2012, 03:11 PM)
If I wanted a system where bows are superior to guns/laser/antimatter rifles, I'd play D&D.
That said, bows are fine the way they are in Shadowrun.
That said, bows are fine the way they are in Shadowrun.
Or like... Watch Rambo.
I also agree bows are fine the way they are. They're a viable option with reasonable tradeoffs and limitations, and they work reasonably well within the game system.
They also fit reasonably well into real world logic - an arrow is much more powerful than most bullets until you hit anti-material rifles and heavy weapons, but you can't fire as many of them as far with as little training. Add in the superhuman capabilities of highly specialized ninja adepts (literally ninjas, they're using Iajutsu to fire twice per turn), and at that point they should be a viable sidegrade.
~Umi
They also fit reasonably well into real world logic - an arrow is much more powerful than most bullets until you hit anti-material rifles and heavy weapons, but you can't fire as many of them as far with as little training. Add in the superhuman capabilities of highly specialized ninja adepts (literally ninjas, they're using Iajutsu to fire twice per turn), and at that point they should be a viable sidegrade.
~Umi
Quite acceptable, yes. I play a char that can in best armor be killed with a hold-out in one IP - theoretically. I miss a bit of char discussion here.
QUOTE (Elfenlied @ Jun 9 2012, 07:16 AM)
36, actually, if you use a MRSI.
What's an MRSI?
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jun 10 2012, 10:41 PM)
Yes indeed... It was erratted and is correct in the newest Hard Copy of the SR4A book. Including the Precious.
Indeed... 15p (30p) for the win. Which is still incredibly devastating for an ARROW.
Indeed... 15p (30p) for the win. Which is still incredibly devastating for an ARROW.
Actually, with the change down to 8 the "no more than Rating x 1.5 damage" thing was removed. And if it wasn't, 1.5 x 8 still would not be 15
Personally, my problem with bows is that they don't take into account the size of the shooter. Trolls are unbelievably tall, and with their different proportions a troll twice as large as you has arms which are even longer than that. Trolls don't shoot arrows, trolls shoot crankshafts...
QUOTE (Sengir @ Jun 11 2012, 05:35 PM)
Actually, with the change down to 8 the "no more than Rating x 1.5 damage" thing was removed. And if it wasn't, 1.5 x 8 still would not be 15
Personally, my problem with bows is that they don't take into account the size of the shooter. Trolls are unbelievably tall, and with their different proportions a troll twice as large as you has arms which are even longer than that. Trolls don't shoot arrows, trolls shoot crankshafts...
Personally, my problem with bows is that they don't take into account the size of the shooter. Trolls are unbelievably tall, and with their different proportions a troll twice as large as you has arms which are even longer than that. Trolls don't shoot arrows, trolls shoot crankshafts...
When you go that big, you go from large weapons, to crew served siege weapons, like the Ballistae.
QUOTE (Sengir @ Jun 11 2012, 03:35 PM)
Actually, with the change down to 8 the "no more than Rating x 1.5 damage" thing was removed. And if it wasn't, 1.5 x 8 still would not be 15
Personally, my problem with bows is that they don't take into account the size of the shooter. Trolls are unbelievably tall, and with their different proportions a troll twice as large as you has arms which are even longer than that. Trolls don't shoot arrows, trolls shoot crankshafts...
Personally, my problem with bows is that they don't take into account the size of the shooter. Trolls are unbelievably tall, and with their different proportions a troll twice as large as you has arms which are even longer than that. Trolls don't shoot arrows, trolls shoot crankshafts...
A Strength 8 Bow does 10p Damage... 1.5 x 10p = 15p...
The Materials Science explanation covers that though. If Materials Science can only produce a Strength 8 Bow, then it does not matter how big you are.
I do believe that you are right about the Removal of the Limit on Damage for Projectile Weapons. I do not see it in the SR4A book.
QUOTE (Tanegar @ Jun 11 2012, 11:16 PM)
What's an MRSI?
It's pronounced Mercy . . yeah, you probably did not want to know THAT . .
M.R.S.I.
Multiple
Rounds
Simultanous
Impact
Look it up.
It does exactly what it sounds like.
You fire two projectiles on differing balistic trajectories which have been calculated in such a way that the projectiles will hit the same spot at the same time.
Thus gaining twice the fire-power from the same launcher.
There is even one artillery piece out there TODAY using this . .
And now for the really mean thing:
Nowhere does it say that it stops working at 2 projectiles from one launcher, as far as i remember . .
Oh, and yes, before you ask, this is from Bogota!
And again, my mind kinda boggles at the fact that people are ready to accept cyber/bioware, trolls and magic but not cybered/bioed/magiced up trolls using high tech bows to deal grivious damage . .
When the closest comparision we have today are the air pressure driven harpoons used to hunt whales. And these are quite capable of doing grivious damage . .
2 is about the maxim you are going to effectively get from the Combat System though, based upon the time frames involved.
IRL, flight times for such things occur over much longer amounts of time (30+ Seconds is an eternity in comparison to Shadowrun combat rounds).
IRL, flight times for such things occur over much longer amounts of time (30+ Seconds is an eternity in comparison to Shadowrun combat rounds).
You say that, you just wait untill you see the Troll Kingdom of Blackforrest Artillery Bataillon!
To make it a BIT less silly, it SHOULD probably follow the burst/auto fire rule of not adding damage from more than one to see if a vehicle is scratched, only after net hits . .
To make it a BIT less silly, it SHOULD probably follow the burst/auto fire rule of not adding damage from more than one to see if a vehicle is scratched, only after net hits . .
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Jun 11 2012, 04:14 PM)
You say that, you just wait untill you see the Troll Kingdom of Blackforrest Artillery Bataillon!
To make it a BIT less silly, it SHOULD probably follow the burst/auto fire rule of not adding damage from more than one to see if a vehicle is scratched, only after net hits . .
To make it a BIT less silly, it SHOULD probably follow the burst/auto fire rule of not adding damage from more than one to see if a vehicle is scratched, only after net hits . .
Perhaps... But one arrow is much the same as another arrow. As your 2nd sentence so aptly indicates. I agree with it. You should resolve each impact seperately for purposes of Armor Penetration.
well, technically, it IS still twice the accellerated mass hitting the same spot, so an argument for both counting more for penetration than for damage could be made maybe . .
But we could do this all week and not reach a consensus i am afraid . .
But we could do this all week and not reach a consensus i am afraid . .
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Jun 11 2012, 04:25 PM)
well, technically, it IS still twice the accellerated mass hitting the same spot, so an argument for both counting more for penetration than for damage could be made maybe . .
But we could do this all week and not reach a consensus i am afraid .
But we could do this all week and not reach a consensus i am afraid .
Heh... probably.
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jun 11 2012, 10:49 PM)
A Strength 8 Bow does 10p Damage...
...but is still a Rating 8 bow. Since the formula is (or at least used to be) RTG x 1.5 and not Base DMG x 1.5, the max damage would be 12.
QUOTE (Umidori @ Jun 11 2012, 08:48 PM)
Wait, why would you take a bow at all then? A crossbow is no larger or harder to conceal, holds 5 bolts in an internal magazine, has no strength minimum, and fires twice per turn without requiring any martial arts. Bows suddenly go from being a niche weapon to being laughably inferior to everything else.
~Umi
~Umi
So, perhaps you would like Str/2+5 more in your game? That's totally fine with me actually, my point is mainly that stronger characters should be able to do more damage with a bow than a human - without the damage becoming totally unrealistic.
Actually, a crossbow doing more damage than a bow in the hands of a human is kind of realistic indeed. You could balance it by saying that the reloading of the magazines takes one simple action per bolt because those things are much larger than a single bullet for example. Thats the point bows always had for themselves, being able to be fired faster than a crossbow in trained hands.
QUOTE (Sengir @ Jun 12 2012, 12:43 AM)
...but is still a Rating 8 bow. Since the formula is (or at least used to be) RTG x 1.5 and not Base DMG x 1.5, the max damage would be 12.
Maybe... I always thought it was Base Damage x 1.5... But since I cannot find that particular rule anymore, it is no longer that important.
Well hang on... if they've dropped the max strength rating of bows by 4 points, but removed the damage cap (which essentially limited net hits), then arguably they've simply shifted the focus from Strength to Agility. So if you roll enough dice on your attack and get enough net hits, you can actually do MORE damage with a single arrow than previously.
Let's assume an elf with 8 Strength and high Agility and skill and bonuses to bows, attacking with around 21 dice. With a point of edge to reroll misses and exploding sixes, or perhaps just attacking from stealth so the enemy can't defend and rolling better than the 7 hit average, you could probably push 10 net hits, dealing 20 DV with a single arrow.
~Umi
Let's assume an elf with 8 Strength and high Agility and skill and bonuses to bows, attacking with around 21 dice. With a point of edge to reroll misses and exploding sixes, or perhaps just attacking from stealth so the enemy can't defend and rolling better than the 7 hit average, you could probably push 10 net hits, dealing 20 DV with a single arrow.
~Umi
...which still wouldn't hurt the "standard" Force 12 Spirits on guard
QUOTE (Xenefungus @ Jun 13 2012, 04:43 AM)
...which still wouldn't hurt the "standard" Force 12 Spirits on guard
In what world do you see Force 12 Spirits as STANDARD?
Probably a World where the GM does not like people stabbing his spirits to death from afar with their silly little pieces of string and plank . .
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Jun 13 2012, 08:01 AM)
Probably a World where the GM does not like people stabbing his spirits to death from afar with their silly little pieces of string and plank . .
Heh... So totally outside the world of Shadowrun, though...
QUOTE (Umidori @ Jun 12 2012, 07:34 PM)
With a point of edge to reroll misses and exploding sixes, or perhaps just attacking from stealth so the enemy can't defend and rolling better than the 7 hit average, you could probably push 10 net hits, dealing 20 DV with a single arrow.
~Umi
~Umi
Except that if you use Edge to reroll misses, you don't get the Rule of Six, and you can only spend one point of Edge on any given test.
Ah, right, whoops. Senior moment.
Should have checked the books there, but was thinking about how it would be more efficienty to reroll misses on that size of a dice pool than to add even a large Edge pool. Although with exploding sixes on the adding, perhaps it would be more efficient to just add the Edge? You're liable to get about 8 hits, 4 of which should be sixes, which should get you another hit on average for 9 hits... with a better than average roll it works out. Although I imagine that rerolling is still better.
~Umi
Should have checked the books there, but was thinking about how it would be more efficienty to reroll misses on that size of a dice pool than to add even a large Edge pool. Although with exploding sixes on the adding, perhaps it would be more efficient to just add the Edge? You're liable to get about 8 hits, 4 of which should be sixes, which should get you another hit on average for 9 hits... with a better than average roll it works out. Although I imagine that rerolling is still better.
~Umi
I'm looking into the bow rules again and I'm not sure why there isn't some kind of quick loader weapon mod that minimizes the reload problem.
You shouldn't have to be an adept or a krav maga master to fire 2 arrows in 3 seconds.
Explain this: You'll believe in the metaplanes, but not firing a bow twice per turn?
You shouldn't have to be an adept or a krav maga master to fire 2 arrows in 3 seconds.
Explain this: You'll believe in the metaplanes, but not firing a bow twice per turn?
Its funny you linked that. Just learned Legolas firing arrows was done by CGI because they couldn't get their stuntmen nor Orlando Bloom to shoot anywhere near that fast.
Consequently, I feel the first chunk of video is fake.
Consequently, I feel the first chunk of video is fake.
QUOTE (Xenefungus @ Jun 11 2012, 07:43 AM)
Actually, since STR 8 is the max for bows, there's no need to be a troll anymore. Any human with some extra muscles can use that.
I personally don't like that they went with straight STR+x for bows instead of STR/2+x (same goes for subduing damage, the only other occurence where plain STR is done as damage). Also, hardcapping things is, most of the time, a bad idea.
With the latest rules, bows can have a base damage of 3 to 10. To actually make trolls weilding bows viable again, i would propose changing that to make the damage scale all the way up woth Strength. Considering a maximum realistic STR of about 14 (troll with STR 10 muscle augmentation 4), what about STR/2+3 without a hardmax?
That way, the STR 8 character would still do some quite ok 7 Damage (same as heavy crossbow), the STR 14 troll would do the prior max of 10 damage, and some tricked out infected, genecrafted, surged, exceptionally gifted,... "being" (probably on drugs) with STR 21 would be able to get to a whopping 14 damage. Sounds quite fair to me, and gets rid of just another ugly rule in our favorite system. What do you think?
I personally don't like that they went with straight STR+x for bows instead of STR/2+x (same goes for subduing damage, the only other occurence where plain STR is done as damage). Also, hardcapping things is, most of the time, a bad idea.
With the latest rules, bows can have a base damage of 3 to 10. To actually make trolls weilding bows viable again, i would propose changing that to make the damage scale all the way up woth Strength. Considering a maximum realistic STR of about 14 (troll with STR 10 muscle augmentation 4), what about STR/2+3 without a hardmax?
That way, the STR 8 character would still do some quite ok 7 Damage (same as heavy crossbow), the STR 14 troll would do the prior max of 10 damage, and some tricked out infected, genecrafted, surged, exceptionally gifted,... "being" (probably on drugs) with STR 21 would be able to get to a whopping 14 damage. Sounds quite fair to me, and gets rid of just another ugly rule in our favorite system. What do you think?
I think that revives the Skytrain Bow.
QUOTE (Umidori @ Jun 11 2012, 02:53 PM)
(literally ninjas, they're using Iajutsu to fire twice per turn)
Iaijutsu is a staple of Japanese swordsmanship - ninjutsu does not have a copyright on it.
QUOTE (yesferatu @ Nov 29 2012, 02:59 PM)
I'm looking into the bow rules again and I'm not sure why there isn't some kind of quick loader weapon mod that minimizes the reload problem.
You shouldn't have to be an adept or a krav maga master to fire 2 arrows in 3 seconds.
You shouldn't have to be an adept or a krav maga master to fire 2 arrows in 3 seconds.
You don't have to be a master. You only need one rank in any Martial Art, which would be roughly equivalent to like a green belt.
I can understand Catalyst not putting a lot of time into the projectile rules.
I cannot believe that Science can infuse my spine with nanowires to double my reaction time, rebuild my muscles so I can lift a car, create a monofiliment whip than can cut through steel, but it can't shave 2 seconds off the oldest weapon known to man.
Archery should be enough, but there has to be a weapon mod to fix this.
You're never going to be able to fire full-auto arrows and they don't make APDS for hunting deer, but please just give bow users this ONE thing.
I cannot believe that Science can infuse my spine with nanowires to double my reaction time, rebuild my muscles so I can lift a car, create a monofiliment whip than can cut through steel, but it can't shave 2 seconds off the oldest weapon known to man.
Archery should be enough, but there has to be a weapon mod to fix this.
You're never going to be able to fire full-auto arrows and they don't make APDS for hunting deer, but please just give bow users this ONE thing.
Making nocking and firing a bow a single Simple Action wouldn't be gamebreaking, I think.
First: Please give bow users a clear-cut action to, you know, actually use their weapon!
Btw if you think about it adding extra IP is increasing the rate at which you fire your bow. someone with 1 initiative pass is putting out one arrow per 3 seconds, someone with 3 has tripled that rate of fire. And lets be completely fair, there are plenty of single-shot guns out there and they're from a class of weapon that has the primary strength of being rapid fire. It's fairly easy to get a bow up to sniper rifle/assault cannon damage (though without the AP), and those weapons are only putting out 1-2 shots per IP (barring very heavy modification). The only thing for archers is that they don't get a spare simple action to take aim before firing, like you do with SS weapons.
Also, there should be some kind of discount for getting bows with non-metallic components. At least for lower strengths.
Btw if you think about it adding extra IP is increasing the rate at which you fire your bow. someone with 1 initiative pass is putting out one arrow per 3 seconds, someone with 3 has tripled that rate of fire. And lets be completely fair, there are plenty of single-shot guns out there and they're from a class of weapon that has the primary strength of being rapid fire. It's fairly easy to get a bow up to sniper rifle/assault cannon damage (though without the AP), and those weapons are only putting out 1-2 shots per IP (barring very heavy modification). The only thing for archers is that they don't get a spare simple action to take aim before firing, like you do with SS weapons.
Also, there should be some kind of discount for getting bows with non-metallic components. At least for lower strengths.
QUOTE (FuelDrop @ Nov 29 2012, 03:50 PM)
Also, there should be some kind of discount for getting bows with non-metallic components. At least for lower strengths.
There is a discount, since Bows are sold based upon Strength Rating. Lower Strength Rating, Lower Cost.
QUOTE (yesferatu @ Jun 6 2012, 12:33 PM)
I wrote up a similar concept a while back.
I went with the traditional gathering skills - and quite a bit of stealth, but that might not be necessary.
A few extra IPs would be helpful, but not necessarily essential.
You're a damn troll. Bows are silent, so they lend themselves to stealth and one shot-one kill scenarios.
You could always lean on combat drugs.
I went with the traditional gathering skills - and quite a bit of stealth, but that might not be necessary.
A few extra IPs would be helpful, but not necessarily essential.
You're a damn troll. Bows are silent, so they lend themselves to stealth and one shot-one kill scenarios.
You could always lean on combat drugs.
I wouldn't say Bows are silent. But they certainly don't sound like guns, which is an advantage by itself.
QUOTE (yesferatu @ Nov 29 2012, 11:36 PM)
I can understand Catalyst not putting a lot of time into the projectile rules.
I cannot believe that Science can infuse my spine with nanowires to double my reaction time, rebuild my muscles so I can lift a car, create a monofiliment whip than can cut through steel, but it can't shave 2 seconds off the oldest weapon known to man.
Archery should be enough, but there has to be a weapon mod to fix this.
You're never going to be able to fire full-auto arrows and they don't make APDS for hunting deer, but please just give bow users this ONE thing.
I cannot believe that Science can infuse my spine with nanowires to double my reaction time, rebuild my muscles so I can lift a car, create a monofiliment whip than can cut through steel, but it can't shave 2 seconds off the oldest weapon known to man.
Archery should be enough, but there has to be a weapon mod to fix this.
You're never going to be able to fire full-auto arrows and they don't make APDS for hunting deer, but please just give bow users this ONE thing.
Lots of science going into 'ware, not much going into a weapon that's been outdated for centuries. Any improvements in bow technique will be from hobbyists (except for possible accuracy-boosters, since that's a sport. Firing fast isn't), and SR already models the improved material science.
QUOTE (Halinn @ Nov 29 2012, 11:00 PM)
Lots of science going into 'ware, not much going into a weapon that's been outdated for centuries. Any improvements in bow technique will be from hobbyists (except for possible accuracy-boosters, since that's a sport. Firing fast isn't), and SR already models the improved material science.
The olympics still exist. That in itself says Bows would continue to progress.
QUOTE (almost normal @ Nov 30 2012, 12:44 AM)
The olympics still exist. That in itself says Bows would continue to progress.
Oh please, I'll be interested when bows are allowed in Urban Brawl... Who cares about the OLYMPICS any longer.They don't even allow cybernetics!
Hey, the real Olympics this year had that Australian guy w no legs as a runner. That was cool. I love the Olympics.
QUOTE (almost normal @ Nov 30 2012, 05:44 AM)
The olympics still exist. That in itself says Bows would continue to progress.
I did mention that shooting accurately was a sport, but this was about shooting fast, which isn't. I also bet that if there was a major improvement in bow design, the IOC would say no to that, so there isn't much incentive to try to design a better bow.
QUOTE (Halinn @ Nov 30 2012, 10:53 AM)
I also bet that if there was a major improvement in bow design, the IOC would say no to that, so there isn't much incentive to try to design a better bow.
Then you'd lose money. Olympic bows hardly resemble anything used 60 years ago, as far as materials and construction. 60 years from now, I imagine it'll be the same.
The one thing I have to stress though, is that the whole rapid bow firing thing is fake. The fastest guy in the world can't get off more then an arrow every second and change*, while the fastest shadow runner can pop them out at far greater speeds. This is a complete non-issue.
*Firing at least 12 arrows while hitting moving targets without missing at distance.
QUOTE (CanRay @ Nov 30 2012, 12:40 AM)
They don't even allow cybernetics!
Depends on which Olympics you're watching...
I just started a new character in a game I'm not GM-ing (whoo), and he is a trollbow. But because I am a giant nerd and my GM also is fond of the rule of cool, he has alot of arrows with various types of minigrenades on them. HE, breathtaker, freezefoam, smoke, etc. We have had three sessions so far and I am quite enjoying my Scottish Fomori Bowman. He also has a couple of other fun toys like collapsible jarids and bola grenades. In the last session he pinned a ganger to a brick wall with a jarid. His method of entering locked doors is to Fezzik them. Fun times.
QUOTE (crash2029 @ Dec 3 2012, 01:53 PM)
I just started a new character in a game I'm not GM-ing (whoo), and he is a trollbow. But because I am a giant nerd and my GM also is fond of the rule of cool, he has alot of arrows with various types of minigrenades on them. HE, breathtaker, freezefoam, smoke, etc. We have had three sessions so far and I am quite enjoying my Scottish Fomori Bowman. He also has a couple of other fun toys like collapsible jarids and bola grenades. In the last session he pinned a ganger to a brick wall with a jarid. His method of entering locked doors is to Fezzik them. Fun times.
Just be careful that people don't start calling you Green Arrow.
@Crash how did you smuggle that masterpiece by your GM? O.o
You basically get the full on Target Damage of all Grenades and get to IGNORE Scatter!
You basically get the full on Target Damage of all Grenades and get to IGNORE Scatter!
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Dec 3 2012, 08:22 AM)
@Crash how did you smuggle that masterpiece by your GM? O.o
You basically get the full on Target Damage of all Grenades and get to IGNORE Scatter!
You basically get the full on Target Damage of all Grenades and get to IGNORE Scatter!
Your Grenades Scatter? Huh.
Grenades have a scatter of 4d6m right?
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Dec 3 2012, 08:25 AM)
Grenades have a scatter of 4d6m right?
No... Normally, IIRC
1d6 Standard
2d6 Aerodynamic
We only use Scatter for Thrown Grenades. We use Direct Fire for Fired Grenades/Rockets/Missiles.
Ah, ok, so i had the meters wrong and you are using a different interpretation of the rules. ok, my bad ^^
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Dec 3 2012, 09:12 AM)
Ah, ok, so i had the meters wrong and you are using a different interpretation of the rules. ok, my bad ^^
No worries... It is the U.S. Marine in me. Having fired innumerable Grenades, rockets, misiles, and having thrown uncountable grenades, the scatter rules just bother me. I do not mind the scatter for Thrown Grenades, as you do not technically throw them at a person, but at a spot in space. If there are people in that space when it goes off, so sad for them. However, DF Explosives (Grenades/Rockets/Missiles) are NOT as inaccurate as the game suggests, so we use the DF rules (from War!?) for those. Yes, it makes such things more deadly... But they should be. We have the benefit of them not being available all the time, so they are not as much of a threat as you might think. Yes, you can get them, but not in Mass Lots. *shrug*
's okay.
i can't rightfully say that i don't think the rules for scatter are utter nonsense, but otherwise, as you said, grenades are so much more deadly . .
there is a reason why a throwing adept can't use them as projectile weapons that explode at ground zero after already having dealt their damage from the throw . .
i can't rightfully say that i don't think the rules for scatter are utter nonsense, but otherwise, as you said, grenades are so much more deadly . .
there is a reason why a throwing adept can't use them as projectile weapons that explode at ground zero after already having dealt their damage from the throw . .
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Dec 3 2012, 09:38 AM)
's okay.
i can't rightfully say that i don't think the rules for scatter are utter nonsense, but otherwise, as you said, grenades are so much more deadly . .
there is a reason why a throwing adept can't use them as projectile weapons that explode at ground zero after already having dealt their damage from the throw . .
i can't rightfully say that i don't think the rules for scatter are utter nonsense, but otherwise, as you said, grenades are so much more deadly . .
there is a reason why a throwing adept can't use them as projectile weapons that explode at ground zero after already having dealt their damage from the throw . .
Indeed...
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