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StealthSigma
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jul 17 2012, 12:14 PM) *
Again, StealthSigma, I didn't say they make you twitchy in SR4. I said the opposite. However, *if* we're talking about things making you twitchy, I'm asking why Synaptics and MBW should get a free pass when Wires has a specific rule.


Let's look at the physiological elements of the system that these three objects (Synaptic Booster, Wired Reflexes, Move-by-Wire) occupies and what must entail in the process of these augments that enables to function as they do.

You receive a stimulus of some sort, be it an attack or otherwise which transmits down your neural pathways to your brain. The brain then interprets it and sends the response down your neural pathways to your muscles to react to that stimulus.

Let's start with synaptic boosters and wired reflexes since they are just two different ways to accomplish the same effect, which is a faster controlled reaction or the ability to act faster. Both of these augments improve the neural pathways either by increasing the bandwidth and data rate of the neural channel (synaptic boosters) or by using adrenaline stimulation and boosters (wired reflexes) to achieve the effects. In both of these cases, your conscious is still retaining control over your motor responses. Wired Reflexes, in that light, is quite simple to turn off to avoid any potential jitteriness by just not running the adrenaline stimulation or neural boost. On the same accord, with both these augments, jitteriness should be able to be overcome with a relatively short learning time to acclimate yourself to your faster reaction times.

Move-by-Wire, on the other hand, uses an entirely different mechanism to achieve its goals. It completely replaces your ability to control your motor reflexes. Think of it like a RAID controller for computers. When you have one installed, the computer "sees" the RAID controller as a single hard drive. It doesn't see the individual hard drives connected to it. The computer cannot do anything to those hard drives, it can only send the hard drives operations to the RAID controller which then performs the appropriate tasks on the physical disks. Move-by-Wire occupies that same sort of spot. It controls your motor responses and can do so more efficiently than your brain can (as indicated by +2 Reaction +2 Dodge per rating rather than +1 Reaction). The jitter in this system is described in the fluff as a flaw in the controller mechanism using an incorrect correction to the seizure movement. It is not unlikely that in order to achieve the results of MBW, the neural connection to your brain must be severed for your muscles in order to place the controller. This is a good, functional, reason why MBW cannot be turned off. Turning it off would be tantamount to losing all motor control.
Yerameyahu
See, *that* is appropriately hideous. smile.gif
BishopMcQ
I for one long for the old days of Boosted Reflexes--cheap as hell, tears a giant hole of Essence out, and you can't turn them off. Once you got them, they were with you for life and kept you from using a bunch of other gear, but it was a cheap way to skyrocket past the other gilettes and be a god for five minutes.
Jeremiah Kraye
I believe boosters, wired and skillwires are all "additions" where as MBW changes your system's state.

Think about it in terms of a standard muscle, say your hand.

Wired reflexes would be how quickly you can close that hand on a muscular level, the signal moves faster along the muscles and a combination of adrenaline and chemical signals.

Reaction Boosters are essentially a secondary "artificial" control system alongside your nervous system that provides nuerological signals faster that our natural system can.

Skill Wires would essentially be "auto pilot" for your muscles, you may not know how to punch, but this computer knows the motion so it sends the appropriate signals to your muscles for that "motion".

All three work alongside or in place of your muscles and nervous system. I suppose I mixed up the term invasive, you also have to remember that Move by wire is essentially all of these together within your body creating a system that changes how your body works. Instead of:

Reaction, leads to reflex, leads to motion.

With a move-by-wire system, you are in tensity ready for motion with an overlapping "counter control signal" that controls that perpetual state, the twitching is when that control signal glitches or fails in some way then corrects itself. Either way a goofy system when you think about the fact that your natural state is at rest.
StealthSigma
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jul 17 2012, 01:54 PM) *
See, *that* is appropriately hideous. smile.gif


Are you suggesting that my extended description is erroneous?
VykosDarkSoul
QUOTE (StealthSigma @ Jul 17 2012, 12:30 PM) *
Are you suggesting that my extended description is erroneous?


On the contrary, I believe he is saying that that is an excelent description and the suggestion that an "off" switch on that type of system causing that type of downside is appropriate.
Jeremiah Kraye
Here's the other problem... When you change to a constant state of tense, your body will innately burn my calories, harm your muscles (no rest period) and other such things... Leaves you to wonder doesn't it.

I'm sure it's great for a few years though... You know, the arthritis, the constant pains, the tension fractures on bones, the stress rips in the muscles... But we can replace all of those right?
VykosDarkSoul
QUOTE (Jeremiah Kraye @ Jul 17 2012, 01:44 PM) *
Here's the other problem... When you change to a constant state of tense, your body will innately burn my calories, harm your muscles (no rest period) and other such things... Leaves you to wonder doesn't it.

I'm sure it's great for a few years though... You know, the arthritis, the constant pains, the tension fractures on bones, the stress rips in the muscles... But we can replace all of those right?


Well..whats the average life expectancy of a runner anyway?? lol...a small price to pay to move like greased lightning!!! hehe


(Or like Hammy the Squirrel on an Energy Drink)
Yerameyahu
Not at all, StealthSigma. I said 'appropriate'. smile.gif
VykosDarkSoul
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jul 17 2012, 03:22 PM) *
Not at all, StealthSigma. I said 'appropriate'. smile.gif


AAAAANNNNDDDD... he remembered to add a smile.gif


so its all good! nyahnyah.gif
NiL_FisK_Urd
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jul 17 2012, 06:34 PM) *
it seems odd to keep them 'tense' and turn them *off*, when you could just turn them *on* (from a base relaxed, non-destroying-the-whole-body state) with the same super-micro controls. smile.gif

Because disinhibiting provides faster reaction than "turning on" something - this is a normal procedure in your body (mostly in the basal ganglia, e.g. in the basal ganglia motor loop).
Yerameyahu
Yes, NiL, but surely the long-term (meaning… after a few seconds) penalties far outweigh that? nyahnyah.gif IANAD, but this just always kinda bothered me. That, and it doesn't really seem like fly-by-wire, but we already talked about that.

I agree with Bishop: it's nice when there are *various* nifty tradeoff options.
NiL_FisK_Urd
Just think about sprinters in the moments before the run, waiting for the starting signal - are they totally relaxed or tense? A MBW puts you constantly in this state, so that you ALWAYS move that crucial split-second faster than everybody else.

And yes, the medical complications might prove bothersome, but they don't matter if you lose that split-second and die ^^
Critias
QUOTE (BishopMcQ @ Jul 17 2012, 12:57 PM) *
I for one long for the old days of Boosted Reflexes--cheap as hell, tears a giant hole of Essence out, and you can't turn them off. Once you got them, they were with you for life and kept you from using a bunch of other gear, but it was a cheap way to skyrocket past the other gilettes and be a god for five minutes.

The magic eight ball says "there are new books you might like."
TeknoDragon
On the plus side, you can turn the cyber off. On the minus side, the opposition hacker can find your hidden PAN, hack in, turn your cyber off, then change your user account permissions to f*ck U. While said opposing hacker is tucked out of the way in the drop-ceiling of a room with the lights broken.

This happened a little less than 72 hours ago in a rather fun session. Much glee was had introducing that hacker to my mono-edge sword... and then begging the group's hacker to fix me, please! after my new character had declined Matrix overwatch, not trusting 'some stranger' to be in her commlink.
Yerameyahu
DNI all but eliminates that possibility, TeknoDragon, esp. for that kind of cyber.
Dakka Dakka
Whoever does not turn the WiFi off on his cyberware, deserves this. Also there is no reason to subscribe you Cyberware to your PAN.
StealthSigma
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jul 18 2012, 01:27 PM) *
DNI all but eliminates that possibility, TeknoDragon, esp. for that kind of cyber.


Bioware eliminates that possibility. smile.gif
Jeremiah Kraye
Or just make it your equipment skin-linked and go autistic mode. I mean if you physically turn off your receiver makes it hard to be hacked.
All4BigGuns
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jul 18 2012, 12:27 PM) *
DNI all but eliminates that possibility, TeknoDragon, esp. for that kind of cyber.


I rule more than "all but" on this issue.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (All4BigGuns @ Jul 18 2012, 11:44 AM) *
I rule more than "all but" on this issue.


There ARE Ways to remotely re-activate the cyber, though... Takes a dose of a certain type of Nanite, but hey, whatever works. Course, you got to know it is there to infect the target with them. *Shrug* smile.gif
KarmaInferno
The truly paranoid have anti-nanite defenses in their bodies.

smile.gif





-k

(Yes, Old Man Jones does)
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (KarmaInferno @ Jul 18 2012, 11:07 AM) *
The truly paranoid have anti-nanite defenses in their bodies.

smile.gif


-k

(Yes, Old Man Jones does)


Indeed, the truly paranoid do... smile.gif
Yerameyahu
Right. There's zero (none at all) reason your wires could be matrix-accessed at all, you have total control over them by DNI, and that just leaves those weird nanites. smile.gif
Jeremiah Kraye
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 18 2012, 05:57 PM) *
There ARE Ways to remotely re-activate the cyber, though... Takes a dose of a certain type of Nanite, but hey, whatever works. Course, you got to know it is there to infect the target with them. *Shrug* smile.gif


If only there were some-way to trick someone into drinking something.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Jeremiah Kraye @ Jul 18 2012, 11:38 AM) *
If only there were some-way to trick someone into drinking something.


Which is why the truly paranoid have anti-nanite defenses. smile.gif
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