I am just curious as to why (other then fluff) they bothered to put an on/off switch on wired reflexes, movebywire or synaptic boosters. I havent been able to find anything in the books (let me know if I am missing it) to say anything about detrimental effects for prolonged use, so why wouldnt someone just have them always turned on?

Just curious.

Fluff, and tradition. I'm not aware that Synaptics has one, though; I'm not even sure MBW does?

Its original use in SR was so people with wired reflexes didn't look like twitchy meth addicts all the time. Don't have that option with MBW and boosters, unfortunately.

And all Reflex Boosters did just that, boosted your REFLEX ACTIONS.

If someone slapped you on the shoulder, you'd have broken their arm twice and put a bullet in their head before realizing, oh, it's Joe from the bar that you frequent asking if you wanted to join him for a brew.

Aha, excelent, that makes me feel a little bit better. I just always pictured people like Fast Eddie from "Changeling" if they didnt turn things off. But MBW and Synaptics dont have an off switch hmm? That could make things interesting!

MUAHAHA....heh...thank you!

Note that you're still right: in SR*4*, none of this stuff is in the rules any more. :/ (I think.)

That... mon ami ... is why the gods cursed me with an overactive imagination!
Now I get to figure out my own fun ways to play with people who want to have maxed out IP constantly!
(as a side note: I’m not going to truly punish them, just maybe, make things awkward every now and again, all for the sake of entertainment, of course…..MY entertainment…muahaha)

There's the Motion Detector security system thingy that is harder to sneak past if you have extra IPs.

No, I certainly agree, Vykos. I'm just saying, it's no longer (AFAIK) *in* the rules, so you just have to make sure the players understand ahead of time. They should be happy to have more gritty roleplaying and power/sacrifice dynamics, after all.

I remember reading that they include a option to turn it off standard now. Great for cybernetic reflex boosters, not so hot with bioware.

And, no, I never saw any rules for it in the books. Honestly, the only place I remember see it was Hatchetman complaining about it. (*Pours a 40 on the curb*)

wired reflexes even have a switch in their description. It's great though for MBW which doesn't. It is still granted one due to the general cyberware rules.

*Takes Notes*

Possible rule: allow a 20% price reduction on cyberware, similar to vehicles, for glitchy 'ware. In the case of wired reflexes/move by wire, they can include the side-effects mentioned in the fluff: accidentally blowing your buddies' heads off (WR), or occasional epileptic fits (MbW). Make up other effects for other pieces of 'ware, or just go for the 'easy glitching' option.

Or should it match the -50% that used cyberware gets? My instinct is no; -50% is justified by hard-limiting the amount people can get, while this reduction should match the negative qualities for vehicles instead. What do you guys think?

Yeah...I do remember that in a previous edition add on book they included an on/off switch for wired reflexes that was an additional cost, because they didn’t come with them standard, and it mentioned that the reasoning was more to avoid long term wear and tear on the nervous system.

Maybe its just me but I see issues coming up for older shadowrunners (if they make it to older) stemming from years of there body working at much higher speeds then they are used to. I mean hell, just because your body can move that fast, doesnt mean you arent going to risk hurting yourself, if you have 4IP your moving 4 times in 3 freakin seconds.

Yeah I know there isnt anything in the rules, but its something I have been looking into, possible glitch food.

Street Sam: Well I hit with my Axe, but I glitched
Me: Oh? okay, you hyperextended your elbow as you buried your axe into the ganger

That kinda thing

Actually the "on and off switch" is in the base SR:4 rulebook built into the wired reflexes themselves. (p342 under wired reflexes description)

From what I understand technology based stuff (wired reflexes) can be turned off, while something bio, like reflex boosters you couldn't turn off. Which explains why they are always jumpy as hell.

Hehe, Jeremiah, I dunno if saying something that 4 people already did really needs an 'Actually'.

What reflex boosters are you talking about? I'm only aware of Reaction Enhancers, Wired Reflexes, MBW and Synaptic Boosters. The three cyberware implants can be turned off and the Bioware implant cannot, but Bioware never had the twitchiness of Cyberware.

I think i found my favorite example...

Here

Wait, why isn't bioware twitchy, and you *can* turn off MBW? The listing in Augmentation doesn't seem to say you can.

I never read anything about synaptic boosters being twitchy, not even in SR3, I may have missed something though. As for the MBW while the implant does not have a switch in its description (as WR do) there is this rule:

MBW obviously needs a DNI so you can turn the implant off.

*shrug* They're IP boosters, how could they not make you jumpy?

That's a hell of a stretch for MBW, given that the Wires has precedent and a specific rule.

Why should Bioware be Twitchy? And because Move by Wires now has an On-Off Switch. Notice they no longer cause T-LeX either. Tech has gotten better.

Here:



So, unless otherwise stated, DNI allows activation/deactivation of Cyberware.

EDIT: DAMN... Dakka Dakka beat me to it. Guess that is what happens when I move away from my desk in middle of Typing entry...

Why shouldn't bioware be twitchy? And again, some general rule for all devices doesn't necessarily mean MBW (which previously could not) gets a secret off switch… why does Wires specifically have one? That rule means only that you can control the controls that are available; an off switch might not be a function that MBW has.

The jumpiness is caused by largely involuntary reactions to unprocessed stimuli. That such reactions occur and that the brain cannot cope with the faster reaction times is rules fiat. They no longer exist in SR4. IRL there are people with slower and faster reaction time. Are the quicker ones necessarily twitchy?

As to why WR have an explicit off switch, I can only assume that this is due to the history of the game. Since there is the general rule that cyberware can be turned off, well explicitly it can only be turned on but without the opposite this sentence would not make much sense, MBW would need an explicit rule that it cannot be turned off, if that were the intention of the developers.

I know it's no longer in SR4; I'm the one who repeatedly mentioned it in this thread. I'm saying, ignoring that, why would bioware in particular not be? Assuming anything can make you twitchy, why not bioware?

Given that the Wires off switch does 'nothing' in SR4, I'm not saying this matters. I'm just asking why *assume* that MBW (which specifically didn't get turned off previously) suddenly gets a secret one, when Wires apparently needs an explicit one. And again, I'm not seeing a general rule that you can turn anything off at will, only a rule that you can access what controls are *available* at will. It's fully sensical and traditional that MBW doesn't have such a control available, that's all.

It is also fully sensible that because the tech has gotten better (no T-LeX remember), that the tech has expanded enough that you can switch Move by Wires on and off.

Not that I care either way, honestly, because IF I had a character with Move by Wires, he would never turn them off anyways. That stuff is addictive...

As to the fact, why Synaptic Boosters shouldn't be twitchy:
1.) Nothing is twitchy anymore
2.) Under older rules, only non-triggered cyberware reflex enhancers made you twitchy and from those, only the wired reflexes could be triggered. MbW and Boosted Reflexes were 'always' on, iirc (and I'm too lazy to look it up )
3.) It's part of the net worth of synaptic boosters. They make you faster without the drawbacks (such as twitchiness, being easily detectable and higher essence cost), but they are WAY more expensive.
They do, however, still make it more difficult to pass motion detectors (at least in that one Missions adventure), a 'rule' which I like

As there is no point in discussing this under RAW definitions, apart from the fact, that apparently no boosting ware has these drawbacks anymore, this is my personal reasoning.

Agreed, there are no current rules for it (except I guess that motion sensor thing Umaro mentioned?). None of this is RAW-relevant. I'm just saying, given that you can go either way, why *assume* things have magically gotten better (there *is* TLE-x, it's just not scary) and just hand out functionality, instead of… not doing that. You should always err on the side of weaker, especially when one of the items has an explicit rule for the feature you're trying to hand out for free. Why assume that bioware gets free bonuses, when actually it could be getting built-in drawbacks (for once)?

Even though the thread is beyond RAW, what would you guys say about a techno with Acceleration?

That's bril, that is.

For the OP, recall that the whole point of wires is to have certain auto-actions that allow your body to do stuff before your brain really registers them. Shoulder grabbed, you grab the hand, twist, turn around, and break the albow. Great when you're on a 'run and a guard sneaks up on you, not so good when your buddy wants to tell you about a hottie at the end of the bar. Or when you see someone draw a gun, you quickdraw and hipfire center-mass, to drop them before they can nail you. Great! Until you're at home, relaxing by the trid, and your kid comes over with a squirtgun because he wants to show daddy his new toy.

So, yeah... off switch? Ideal.

Lastly, I support the 20% off for "Glitchy 'ware", as long as you let your GM get in there to muck it up. Wires with no off switch, or retractable spurs that don't retract are classics, but there're plenty of other options ... like the guys who decided to save money and get Muscle Augmentation but not for their legs. You have huge gorilla arms but puny little legs, like steroid users of today.

I dig character stuff.

Because other fine movement activities listed in the book are not impeded by having additional Initiative passes. In fact, defeating motion sensors is the only fine motor control action that is affected by it. In reality, I consider the motion sensor rule to be the out of place anomaly.

Forgery skill. If you're twitchy then you would have difficulty making a successful forgery.

If the GM is making characters with the IP boosting implants break their friends' wrists/arms at the bar or gun their kids down for coming in the room with a squirtgun, then that GM needs to turn in their screen. It is NOT "an expected drawback for taking a benefit", as only the most rare of things should come with drawbacks of that nature. The player bought an implant, not a negative quality.

I like to directly compare Synaptic Boosters and Wired Reflexes.
In earlier editions, the boosters only gave you initiative dice, no bonus to reaction, as the wired reflexes did. That was part of their drawback. They also were more expensive, but, being bioware, they could not be easily detected and were way more health friendly.
You needed to purchase an extra trigger for the wired reflexes, which didn't cost too much, but was an additional essence cost (0,1 or so, can't remember off the top of my hat) or the GM was in his full rights to let you roll for nasty surprises if someone startled you. This rule was not in effect for the boosters.

In SR4, the Synaptic Boosters and Wired Reflexes do exactly the same, for a difference in essence cost (healthiness) and price.
Let's take a rating 1 System:
For 10k, I get the wired reflexes. This is much less expensive than it was in earlier editions, so now every streetpunk can have one. However, it is 4 times as expensive as the synaptic boosters in terms of essence cost, which on their side weigh in with 8! times the price.
In effect you pay 8 times as much, to save on essence.
But there are meta costs and gains involved:
1.) Lower essence costs can be halved more effectively, if the character has more cyberware
2.) Detectability, same as always. Walking onto a plane with wired reflexes and without a license can get ... funny. No such hassle with boosters.
3.) Detectability again, this time astrally. An assensing mage will see the essence loss, but it is more difficult to detect bioware than cyberware.
4.) Higher cost for the boosters, this time. You cannot sell and upgrade to a higher system, since it is cultured bioware. You always pay the full price if you want to go for higher rating and / or quality. No such problems with wired reflexes.
5.) You can't turn the boosters off. As there is no twitchiness in the rules anymore, this only amounts to the situation with the movement detectors, but it is still there.
6.) It's brain surgery! That is a meta-meta issue, but some characters dislike chopping off arms and legs or gouging their eyes out for cyber replacements. Similarly, I can see a character having an issue with having her brainpan opened. It makes it way easier to insert a nice little bomb in there while on the table, as well.

Concluding: I think, in light of the drawbacks and benefits, it is okay to give the cruder cyberware the issue that it might fry your nervous system if used untriggered over a long period of time and to make the bioware basically stress-free, as it is better integrated into your body.

Did some reading, I believe we are thinking of Move by Wire Systems. Move by wire systems, even today are noted for making one twitchy because your body is in a state of constant seizures.

Does that mean that someone they are talking to won't notice their hand muscles occasionally flicker or bulge? Or the occasional shaking? Sure... will they flip out like a ninja? Only if something in the system critically fails. I could see a major injury causing a move by wire computer implant to fail being ... Ugly?

Again, StealthSigma, I didn't say they make you twitchy in SR4. I said the opposite. However, *if* we're talking about things making you twitchy, I'm asking why Synaptics and MBW should get a free pass when Wires has a specific rule.

Indeed, bannockburn, but it's arbitrary. You could just as easily give cyberware a (much-needed) minor bonus, while bioware (by its very nature) has the drawback of not being controllable/able to be deactivated. My point is only that, given the choice is totally arbitrary, it seemed odd for Dakka Dakka to just assume the Synaptics were perfect.

I suspect it's because there was a big deal made over the addition of an "off" switch for Wired in previous editions.

Not because the authors were trying to say "other stuff doesn't have an off switch".




-k

Always hated that little line about MbW, as I've heard people trying to claim bulldrek along the lines of the person gets up off the operating table and immediately falls out in a permanent major seizure (the big ones that get shown on the medical tv shows).

Of course it's arbitrary
But I think it's also justifiable for 80k basic price, while I don't see that wired reflexes need a bonus. It gets less pronounced in higher grades and ratings though. 1 Mil vs 2.4 Mil Nuyen is a better deal, but then again, you can expect better "ingame benefits" of a higher rated cyberware system.

In regards to other proposals: I like the 20% price reduction for glitchy ware
Makes it even funnier, when your local ripperdoc asks the sam if he doesn't want that cool new system (which, incidentally hasn't been beta tested yet) for a lower price than his old one!
I wonder, how many players would fall for the scam

I've never heard anyone claim that. Silly people. The fluff has always been some crap about 'controlled permanent seizure', not uncontrolled.

I don't think anywone has mentioned it yet (Did not see it anyway) but there IS a Negative Quality called Buggy 'Ware. Augmentation, Page 21.

Except that it's still just a computer controlling what is essentially body-wide seizures. Move by Wire is the same as fly by wire... you're simply controlling the natural flailing in order to gain speed as a muscle seizure tends to move with incredible power and speed.

If you catch a piece of lead into your skull that obliterates that MBW control system... oh body.

You're right, of course, TJ. But I really dislike this quality, as it needs to be bought off with karma, implying that there's something wrong with your body, not the ware. If that's the case, alright. If it's just a beta test, you can give this quality to the ware itself, instead of the character

Sure, Jeremiah, but that's totally outside the rules. Amusing, yes. But I'm saying I've never heard anyone make the silly claim that not-damaged-by-head-wounds MBW causes uncontrolled seizures. Also, it's always bothered me about the fly-by-wire thing: in what sense is an airplane in a seizure? Sounds like total BS to me, always has.

Actually yes... Fly-by wire systems were introduced because planes are moving at such speeds or designed in such a manner that at the speeds/designs they are running on instability is introduced. The only viable way to control that instability is through a computer controlling the instability (essentially seizures) in such a manner as to create the "wanted" result.

A prime example is the stealth fighter designs... High unstable flying shapes that work because of their fly-by-wire systems.

I would agree, unless under extreme situations. However, requiring a composure test to avoid reacting to quickly when supprised would be completely within parameters, and most likely entertaining for all involved!

i.e. like it says in the link, people sneakin up on ya to scare ya just to see "which way from Sunday" you will jump.

Jeremiah, surely those systems are just carefully controlling everything at once, though, not 'seizing' (which I understand to be acting at random in some sense). I'm only saying that I never understood the 'seizure' aspect of the fluff there. They couldn't have just said, 'MBW microcontrols all your muscles at once' (whatever that means)?

The fly-by wire systems are effectively using the planes muscles to control something that would normally be uncontrollable, IE the micro-fluctuations of flight in a poorly designed hull that may be perfect for other purposes (supersonic flight, space flight, stealth capabilities).

I imagine a move by wire system keeps your muscles permanently tense (state of a seizure) but sends a counter-signal to the muscles to control the effect. But I agree, the concept seems silly when you have wired reflexes floating around. From what I understand MBW is very invasive compared to other reflex/agility/init boosters.

Right, that's the only aspect I meant: it seems odd to keep them 'tense' and turn them *off*, when you could just turn them *on* (from a base relaxed, non-destroying-the-whole-body state) with the same super-micro controls. Either way is magitech handwaving, but it just always seemed nutty. Luckily, SR is kind of based on the idea of doing hideous things to yourself to gain power. …Or it was, before SR4 eliminated all the drawbacks of everything.

No More invasive than standard Wired Systems. At least not anymore. When they were introduced, they were MUCH more invasive. The technology has been refined a bit since then. In Fact, Move by Wires is FAR LESS invasive than the comparable Wired Reflexes + Reaction Enhancers + Skill Wires (plus other benefits) that it provides.

Honestly, I'm not even sure why they're different anymore. At this point, is there even a reason to have MBW and Wires each on the listing?