I'm thinking about getting into a game with the standard BP spread, but with SR4A metas only, no magic, and gear provided but unknown. (So, in other words, we don't get any gear at creation, but still get standard BP.)

One simple question: What the hell do I build? My usual suspects (street sam and face) are out, so's rigger, and I hate playing hackers. Thoughts?

Why no magic? And why can't you play a street sam or face?

With those restrictions I'd say either go for something that's an outlandish or hilarious concept that will be fun to play no matter the numbers, or make a generalist with high edge.

~Umi

You could consider the typical film noir gumshoe. Lots of skills, knowledge, contacts.

No magic and no cyber means that everyone is a normal person, albeit a highly-skilled one.

Detective, Face, Weapon Specialist (stop laughing!), Tribal Warrior, Former Officer ... hrm. Bounty Hunter, Enforcer, Ganger, Rocker, Reporter ... these are the archtypes that jump out at me.

You can get up and running as a hacker in fairly short order (piracy lol). Faces are also much more dependant on stats and skills than on ware. A command rigger can be effective with even the worst drones just by bolting a FA weapon onto them.

I'd probably make a hacker/face/command rigger. You should be able to afford all the stats and skills (because no gear). Faces are useful no matter what, and you can get hacking/rigging online with fairly little money.

@tsuyoshi
Can you clarify if cyber will be provided in the "gear provided but unknown" part? I kinda assumed the GM would give you gear AND 'ware as he saw fit for the character, but Wakshaani here thinks the characters will get no cyber. Which is it?

... but in answer to your question, the logical side of my brain tells me that cash intensive archetypes come out ahead if gear is not included in their starting BP.

So I would go to town with a hacker or rigger. Hell, you have enough BP to make a hacker/face, or a merc/rigger. Yeah, I think a hacker/face who schmoozes into corps after hacking up a delivery order in the security office log ...

I don't see why skill/contact intensive roles like faces, mercs, gumshoes and the like aren't entirely viable anyway ... let's face it, a sammie who doesn't have to spend money on IP boosters will end up looking like a merc anyway with the skillset he will end up with ... just give him a high Willpower, so he can slum it with drugs if the GM doesn't give him an IP booster ...

Best advice in my opinion would be to tell your GM you're sitting out of such a fiasco and to call you up if he starts planning a real game. The very idea of this is utterly ridiculous.

^This.

I don't mind themes or specific restrictions, but if you're walking into this blind with no money for gear/ware/etc, then it doesn't sound like he/she is planning anything that will be sustainable...I'd get more info on how gear will be handled before even considering a character.

I don't think it's ridiculous. I would miss Magic but I would enjoy having the extra points to spend on attributes and skills instead of gear. If you're the type who likes to tinker with the gear to make things just so then it's probably not for you, but I'd be just as happy skipping that step of the character creation process. It requires a certain amount of trust in your GM to make it fun, but so does any game. Different strokes.

It isn't about a desire to tinker with my gear, it is the fact that they're being asked to make an incomplete character. You can't build a character without knowing at least something about how gear is going to be handled at the start. Especially in terms of 'wares. It also has an impact on potential Qualities. Don't know if you can take Buggy Ware, for example, and is it worth it to consider a Black Market Pipeline? What about Restricted Gear?

and things like type o system and other things like that won't be very helpful if you can't get any of the cyber you were wanting

Agreed. It's not restrictions, it's the incompleteness (as Pax said) and the lack of hooks. I'm sure the GM has some ideas, but I haven't seen enough in this thread to even get my bearings, you know? All you could do is make a mundane generalist/face and go with that. I'm not saying that can't be fun, but there's really no chargen *decisions* to be made, y'know? You can choose a race, and maybe melee-vs.-ranged, that kind of thing.

You might as well skip chargen, is all. That can be fun, absolutely.

I don't see why there is such a big problem with this. The GM could have a fun scenerio planned, something like "You all wake up in prison cell. You are wearing orange jumpsuits." Just build a character with a round set of skills not including Magic. Assume you either don't need or will need to improvise any equipment you might need for your skills. My suggestion would be for whatever specialization you choose for your character, you should also choose and build up the artisan type skills to match it. For instance, if you want to make a gun bunny, also get gunsmithing skills, so that you create your own weapon. If you want to make a hacker, also get the programming and hardware skills so that you can cobble together working equipment. Just remember is will be good to have skills that help you procure or make your own equipment if you are not allowed to purchase it with your normal build points. I think this could make a fun and challenging game.

Either that, or you just go for the fun value and make a totally useless (or generic) character and just have fun with it.

Honestly, whenever I hear ideas like this posed, red flags start waving and alarms start ringing warning of "GM Power Trip Incoming". That's the only reason to level that much restriction.

Makes sense as long as they don't have to make their own cyberware and install it in prison...sorry, i'm not gonna chop off my arm to let you give me a new one made from scraps cobbled together from an old vacuum cleaner, some random hydrolic jacks and a George Foreman grill.

No, your new arm is being made out of an unbendable girder and a smoothie machine.

And, if you're looking at having to produce your own gear due to the prison cell scenario above (or something similar) that's when I'd seriously consider throwing the Jury-rigger quality on a character. Heck, Jury-rigger is fun even without not really knowing what's going on gear wise for your character.

or cobbled together by the medieval blacksmith.

It'll be....grooovie...

...that's actually quite a good idea. Yoink!

I kinda like this idea.

This could also be a Burn Notice type game--for no fault of the characters, they have been burned by their handlers and have the gear in hand. There was a story I remeber hearing years ago, about two long-term board members who played in a game where they were at a BBQ or some such when all hell broke loose, and they had to travel cross country with whatever they could find. SINs were burned, boltholes gone--pushed their limits of resourcefulness.

I'd say talk to the GM and get some kind of idea where they are planning to take the campaign. That way you can make a backstory, character, and know a little more. Does no gear mean no implants? Should you have contacts? What types of Qualities are barred, etc.

Found the post.

My favorite character had a similar beginning in life to what Gozer outlined. Her first run began "mid-adventure", so to speak, waking up in an apartment with no gear and with goons closing in. The first ten minutes were spent scavenging the apartment, improvising weapons and plotting a mini-ambush. It rewarded resourcefulness and creative thinking. I had a blast.

I've seen this type of thing done too, and done it myself: if it's not a GM short circuit, it tends to be a cohesive campaign start, rather than an episodic by-run play. As BishopMcQ stated, this could be something like a long term group campaign, with shadowrun rules and setting, as opposed to the stereotype jaded illegal ops by mission we normally do.

And nothing says you can't wait for the other shoe to drop, and then say "screw this." GM may not tell whats doing for fear of spoilers, if he has intentions of such a campaign. Or he may be an ass. Or simply trying for niche gameplay (magic is ultra rare, etc). Any of these is not vanilla shadowrun, so if it doesn't pan out for you quickly, politely but firmly withdraw yourself, and state your reasons. GM will either come around, or he won't: either one will tell you something quite significant about the group or GM. If it does pan out for you, then it may be a fun change of pace.

That's kind of the point, though. You can't do much *else*. The GM could have anything planned, but we don't know.

Actually, the reason for these restrictions is much simpler: We're playing as military very early in the timeline, relatively speaking. (We're talking pre-2050 here.) So when I mean "no gear," I mean none--I'm not sure exactly when the year is, but when we start there might not even *be* cyberware. While this isn't what I expect to be the case, it does mean that I'm assuming 1) we won't have any for a while and 2) neither will the opposition, so it shouldn't be a problem.

We're going to get assigned gear, but I think the GM is waiting to see what people build before he determines exactly what it is. I think, for example, that a specialist is therefore an acceptable path here; I'm just not sure how to do it without traditional augs.

Some of the ideas here are pretty good; Jury-Rigger in particular is something I might not have previously looked at. I'm still not sure about some of it, though... thanks for the ideas, folks, and if you've got any more I'd love to hear 'em.

A-ha! So you were keeping info from us. Just knowing 'military' is a huge difference.

Mostly I just didn't want a bunch of people telling me to demand knowing what we'd be given--that wouldn't help me too much personally and might just create bad blood.

With that setup, I'd look at SR2050 for a better attitude and setting. Beyond that, shifting down the dice pool expectations will probably be necessary.

The extra points from gear can go to more Kn skills and round out. A marine corps expert marksman would be skill 5 with high Agi, but likely have athletics, the outdoor skill group, some driving skills. If your group is making a squad, they'll all have basic combat skills and a specialty--EOD, Recon, etc.

Goodluck, sounds like a fun premise.

You should play a character I like to call- The Hidden Mountain

A Troll that has maxed out his stealth skills and specializes in Urban Infiltration. Give him some melee skills or archery and some demolitions skills. You've got a kick-ass infiltration expert/assassin, who can take a bullet or five and out-run anyone after them in case they screw up and can do more with silent weapons than a lot of guns. Round him out with some socials skills and some other necessary skills. People always expect infiltration experts to be humans or elves and the decreased agility is a draw back, but the image of an eight foot tall troll hiding in the shadows is awesome.

Another dose of Totally Not Helping.

I've always wanted to make a character with as many outlandish Incompetent perks as possible. Not as any attempt to dodge the system and get free BP, but as a sort of.... GM Creativity Test. Just to see if they have what it takes to introduce all these concepts into the game.

I mean outlandish stuff like Incompetent: Pilot Space Shuttle and Pilot: Hot Air Balloon. Exotic Weapons, too.

if I was feeling mean, I might throw Amnesia into the mix.

I still advise sitting out of this. Too much chance that the 'assigned gear' will be the most worthless things in the book picked pretty much 'because noone ever takes it'. When game ideas like this come up, the old adage 'Trust No One' is a good piece of advice.

Well, then, I suppose a gear-independent character might be in order.

Unlike All4, I see now what the point is and feel like the gear restrictions are more reasonable, wish you would have said as much to begin with . Going true to the timeline would mean you'd be playing more or less in the present day plus 15-20 years, say 2030s. Some cyber is available, bioware, not so much. Magic is still fresh and seriously rare. I'd bet your GM is going to flag one of you to awaken (in this scenario, that's what I'd do).

There is no excuse not to blow half your points on attributes, but that's what I think regardless of the circumstances. Assuming the normal restrictions on qualities is in place, that leaves you tons of points to use on skills. Since you'll have so many points for skills, I imagine your group will end up meta-heavy. After all, 40 pts for a troll isn't so scary when you're left with 150 or more for skills. Heck, Edge doesn't count for that attribute cap, pump lots of points into it.

I'd actually suggest getting with the other players (I'm assuming this isn't a one-on-one game) and see what everyone is thinking for characters. It sounds like you may be building a small military unit/group. You should try to balance abilities around the group and be sure everyone has at least basic combat training. You as players decide what type of group you are and build around the group concept rather than just individuals that are thrown together which is typical in a "normal" SR game.

Just my 2 ¥

-D

Although it would be wise to check with the GM on his thinking, I think Buggy Ware and Restricted Gear could be quite useful in the low-cyber military campaign we now know this to be. If Restricted Gear gets you a piece of experimental cyber in a low-cyber campaign it could be pretty powerful. And balanced out with Buggy Ware could play up on the "experimental" side of things ...

Not sure why you keep posting in this thread. You obviously have GM trust issues yourself, and have posted (not once but twice) that you would not take part in such a game.

The OP implicitly trusts his GM to make it a fun game, and has asked for build advice given the restrictions his GM has given (no magic, gear and perhaps very limited cyber to be assigned by the GM). Given this, it is clear you have nothing more constructive to add to this thread.

Thanks for the clarification. Military campaign makes certain archetypes (Detective, my hacker/face suggestion [unless he is Psych Ops]) redundant, and you should probably spend some of your BP on Athletics and/or Outdoors skill groups and other military-themed skills.

Given the military theme, I would be tempted to either go rigger or infiltrator. Even if the GM doesn't give you nice drone toys out the box, I am sure a rigger will soon be able to procure some, and as Umarov said, as long as you have suitable mechanic skills (+ poss jury-rigger), it won't be long before you can build your drone army with bolted-on automatic weapons ...

If you're part of a small military unit, the standard SR tropes (street sam, etc) don't really apply as much.

This sounds more like everyone in the unit should have good general skills (athletics, firearms, close combat, survival, etc), then everyone can branch off to be something special. Heavy weapons guy, mechanic/drone guy, infiltrator guy, leader guy, science/brainiac guy, communications/hacker guy. Mix and match as desired. You should be able to cover all of your skills, as you won't be spending BP on resources or magic.

I'm seeing the team from Aliens in my mind here. Dibs on Hudson! (comm/hacker guy)

Okay, so a generalist spread with a specialty. Think it's worth gambling on the kind of gun I get if I want to go weapons specialist? And can you guys be more specific about generalist skills I might want in this sort of game?

I wouldn't bet on the type of weapon - maybe get a 3 or 4 in the Firearms group, then get Heavy Weapons (with a spec if you really want one)

As far as general skills for a military-type char, everyone's opinion will probably vary. Mine is the Outdoors skill group (2?), Athletics skill group (2?), Disguise (Camo), Infiltration, Unarmed Combat, First Aid, and the above-mentioned Firearms group.

It also depends if you guys are supposed to be spec.ops, just out of basic training grunts, exp. veterans, etc.

As for skills, what phlapjack77 said, except you'll probably have larger numbers since you have so many skill points. Also, I'd consider taking a martial arts quality. Find out who is going to do demolitions, who will do B&E, and who is your face, among your players.

I'm not sure about gambling on the gun. I'm assuming your GM will be reviewing your characters and assigning what is appropriate, so I think if one of you pulled out a sniper and another showed a CQB and a third had a high Heavy Weapon skill, then those characters would be provided with appropriate weapons. I'd probably avoid specialties though.

Though Assault rifles would still be a decent bet for any rifleman. They are still the primary weapon in 6th world armies.

Well, as always, 'Automatics' should have you totally covered, which of course includes ARs. Might be nice to have the whole group though… you never know.

Yeah, My Minimal Gear (47,000 Nuyen Worth, man that goes quick), No Magic, No Ware character took the whole group precisely because you never know. Though I am a bit partial to the AK-147 SMG.

I would go group, you may have to scavenge for some weapons, and it would be a shame to pass up on that tricked out sniper rifle of the enemy you just took out just to save a few BP (it's not like you need to either).

As for other skills, as already suggested Athletics and Outdoors group. I'm quite a fan of skill groups, so I would also recommend the Stealth group - you are already going to need Infiltration (natch) and Disguise (for creating a sniping hide), and Palming could also prove useful (smuggling guns past checkpoints, hiding one on you if you're captured etc). Hell, you could consider Shadowing a freebie ...

Then, as suggested, you could choose a unit niche such as communications (hacker), rigger, scout, heavy weapons/demolitions specialist, sniper, leader (face) ... and as several posters have said, see what functions the other people in your group intend to cover as well so as a team you have all the bases covered.

Please let us know what you come up with, will be interesting to see what you decide to do ...

Tell your GM that he's awesome.

Magic *should* be rare, but every idiot gamer feels entitled to it. The game states that less then 1% of the population is awakened, and only a small subset of that can wield it effectively.

Imagine how cool King Arthur would have been if had the powers of Merlin?
Imagine how cool Lord of the Rings would be if everyone had the powers of Gandalf?

Gamer idiocy aside, I say go with a Yak. You'll have the pipeline for upgrades, and a fun story no matter how it plays out.

That being Said, Magicians are MUCH more prevelant than Lawyers are in America. We have the highest density of Lawyers (1 in 265, with Brazil 2nd at 1 in 326) in the world. Doctors top in at 1 in 200 in Cambodia, who leads the world in Doctor Ratio. So... Magicians are not as rare as you are making them out to be. Just saying...

I can name a few of each profession that I know personally. Means I will likely know 2-3 times more Magicians in the 6th WOrld.

Gandalf… *what* powers? Worthless Maiar, no lightning bolts, hmf.

Anyway, the issue isn't 'no magic'. It's 'no gear, no info, no nothing'. Revealing that it's a military game goes a long way toward alleviating that problem, though.

Seriously, lamest wizard ever. Mickey Mouse used more magic in ten minutes than he did in four books.