Transhuman
Cost ? BP
The subjects body is so receptive to augmentation that all cyberware counts as having been installed in a Delta Clinic.


I will admit this comes from watching my husband play Deus Ex: Human Revolution, but it seems like a viable one given the existence of Type O system and Biocompatability. I just need help determining if it would be more expensive than Type O system, and if so how much.

Do you intend for that to mean, 'counts as Deltaware' … 'for the purposes of _'? Because 'installed in a delta clinic' is only strictly relevant for like 2 things.

Anyway, there are many factors besides just Essence cost. Delta-grade cyber gets goofy Device Ratings, is hard to detect, etc.

Agreed because there is already Bio-compatibility: Cyberware quality which is like everything is Alphaware. (20% less)

I meant that its essence cost is halved only like a version of Type O system for cyberware. Sorry for the confusion, I forgot about the other effects.

Type O only affects Basic type bioware, this is about three times as good, so it should probably cost around 90 bp.

Could you even buy that by the rules?

That would cause a little problem since the max you can take is 35 in each (unless you change your build abilities). Getting a 20% discount in essence cost is 10bp, so for 25 or 30bp you should be able to get that 50% discount. Or maybe that is too much and it should be the 30% for that cost. Depends on how you want to balance it out.

Yeah, that was my first reaction: anything like this would be far too expensive to actually get.

Actually, Biocompatibility reduces the essence cost by 10%, not 20%... Still a nice discount though.

Biocompatibility is 10BP for a 10% reduction in essence cost for your choice of cyber or bio-ware. You can only take it once so you can't get 10% reduction in each...

Type O system is 30BP for a 50% reduction in essence cost for bioware only and can't accept second-hand bioware.

So there's a baseline.

If you wanted to build the transhumanist quality like you're talking about, you may want to include some negative since a 50% essence reduction for cyberware is a greater cost reduction than bioware since cyberware essence values are typically higher than bioware, and with lower essence cost, the reason for choosing bioware over cyber (lower essence cost) is negated.

perhaps something along the lines of...

Transhumanist
30BP
Reduce essence cost of all cyberware (not bioware) by 50%. All bioware the character obtains takes 20% more essence AND/OR and must be alphaware or better.


just kicking around some thoughts.

I was actually thinking 35 BP for starters. It is also incompatible with Biocompatability cyberware. It really means that unless your GM gives extra points in qualities it's all you'll start with.

Also it doesn't matter what level clinic you go to, the essence cost doesn't change. (No double dipping for bonuses).

Again, 'level of clinic' never matters for Essence, it's implant grade.

But it does seem like a problem for the quality to say 'cyber is -50% Essence' and *not* mention Grade. I think it was right to say at the beginning, 'counts as Deltaware for the purpose of Essence Cost only'. … I still think it's too strong anyway, and the cyber vs. bio tradeoff effect is just weird. Bioware is atleast equally 'transhumanist'. You could alter the fluff, but that's still a funky mechanic.

35 bp for a cyberware-only version of Type O System would be reasonable, actually. That locks out anyone but mundanes from having it, and while they do benefit a great deal it isn't gamebreaking because there's only so much quality cyberware to get.

Agree, 35 BP sounds right if you want it. Yeah, it is good. But Cyberware is in any case mostly second choice...

And yes, counting it as Delta for essence purpose only is the better way to go. Reducing costs by 50% means, that you can get Alpha cyberware for 20% of the essence cost using adapsin.

Get rid of the clinic anyway.

Along the line:
Transhuman
The characters body does tollerate ware more easy than the avarage person. This might be to to some in vitro genetic manipulation or natural mutation.
For the purpose of essence calcualtion every piece of cyberware counts as if it would be of delta grade. For any other purpose the grade of the implant is used.

Agreed. Treated as deltaware for calculating essence would be more appropriate.

While I like the idea of going full 35BP, that does mean you can't even start with martial arts or ambidexterity. But hey, can always pick it up later if your GM will let you

It's more to be sure you have to be mundane to have it. And it is better than Type O System, so it has to cost more.

You *could* specify that it's incompatible with Awakened/Resonance qualities. :/ Usually, the game doesn't do things like that, I think.

Unless your picking up an awakened/resonance quality...

Right, they're incompatible with each other, but I mean that the game tries *not* to say 'mages can't have cyber'. Usually it's something implicit, like the sheer cost of Type O, instead of an explicit 'mages can't get this'.

I would suggest a 25-30 BP total with a caveat, something to mediate the fact that is more beneficial than Type O.

Part of why it's better is because of the greater versatility of cyberware, and also because bioware is far more expensive.


I'd say mediating by
1) making it type specific (must buy Alphaware or Betaware, but it costs Deltaware essence)
2) having to get special cyberware for some reason (much higher availability)
3) taking a penalty or disallowing other forms of upgrade, like geneware or cultured bioware (2x or 3x cost for needing a special lab, or can't take)
4) making the quality count for direct installs only, but not for limb replacement (anything with capacity would work on normal essence costs)
5) having your organs/fluids be of very high value to organleggers (like Type O system)


A combination of some of the above could lead to enough negatives to balance it out with Type O. This is just spur of the moment brain-storming, but personally I would use 2, 4, and 5, and have it be worth 30 points. A lot of the abuse comes out if you can't do complete part replacements and still get the benefit.

I'd probably just stick with basic grade cyber acts like alpha grade... -20% essence reduction. Alpha grade acts like Delta. Reduce the grade of any bioware by one step (alpha -> standard), and can't take normal bioware.

That said this is a big can'o'worms to open up as this is for starting gear.


There's another huge benefit here, almost any street doc can install basic or alpha grade. Beta and Delta require special clinics (and corp sponsorship practically). So future augments stay cheap as well... alpha is only twice basic cost... while true delta is 10x cost (plus the cost of the clinic!). So there's a monstrous cost savings built in there as well.

Overall I think it's a bit too much though

And the game is poorer for it in my opinion. Too much stuff has to be balanced carefully so mages arn't left out or don't break something. Perhaps my mage hate is showing more then normal, but i'm tired of magic never playing with tech well but tech always having to explicitly play with nice with magic.

Personally I think the quality should implicitly forbid magic, and if we're going that route likely should forbid resonance as well.

If anything, it should forbid other Essence-reduction benefits.

IE doesn't stack with Biocompatability, way of the adept, maybe even Ware Grade bonuses, adapsin, etc.

I'd go with "... can only take Bioware of Beta grade or higher, because of-the-shelf bioware is incompatible with these unconventional genetic markers. Genetic treatments outside a Delta clinic are also very risky in damaging the transhuman gen code. Role a die everytime You undergo genetic treatment outside a Delta clinic. On a one, you loose Transhumanism."

That's not bad.

Except for the last bit. Shouldn't it be an Edge test of some kind, though? But mainly it sounds problematic. If you lose it… does all your Essence whisk away?

I'd change that restriction to Bioware specifically made for you. translating from augmentation's funky wording, that's all Cultured Bioware, and beta grade or better for Basic Bioware, and furthermore being restricted from Secondhand Bioware.
Would not getting essence reductions from bioware grades be a suitable penalty? IE a beta muscle toner is not 30% off?
Its basically going to be built-in with the essence rules governing Cyber/Bio essence loss, anyway.

The problem here is, that making the quality cost less (25%) and giving it some drawbacks concerning Bioware makes it the best quality for one shot characters.
You take it+Biocompability Cyberware and you can get lots of ware, lots of boni for few nuyen.

Thats why I think it should be 35 points.

How about all geneware has to be beta grade as a limiter. And the price stays 35BP

geneware has no grades.



This is precisely why I was saying it shouldn't stack with any other essence reduction things.
You take transhuman, and its the -only- essence reduction you're gonna get. No stacking extra adapsin, biocompatability, etc on top of it.

It is called an A.I with the Ghost in the Shell quality and it is 95 BP.

Please. I can stat a cyborg in my sleep, and it costs less than that. The bulk of the price is on MAX CASH and restricted gear.
The frank fact of the matter is, Cyborgs get shafted on Cyberware options. Basically nothing you want actually takes Capacity.

Yes but there is one part of your humanity you have to keep with you - your brain. The A.I option is the real deal - also it's fun if you have good medical skills and collect incapacitated enemies - since they didn't kill you they can make you stronger

Sorry, there was a typo. It should have read 25 BP. I meant, that if you make it cheaper and you add stuff to it, the drawbacks won't matter for a starting character. If you get twice (or even more) the amount of cyber up your ass, you won't care much about Bioware...

Yeah, part of the problem is that this really front-loads the gains and back-loads the costs. If the game/character doesn't go for a long time…

Why not something like 'each grade of ware functions as one grade higher for purposes of essence cost only'? You can't start with Betaware, so you have some room to improve, and it isn't as powerful as a blanket 50% off. You could allow it to function for all improvements (cyber and bioware), which would make more sense with a transhumanist. Probably still 30 or 35 BP.

I would never take that when i could just take biocompatabilty (cyberware) for only 10BP and use the extra BP to buy adapsin, and still have BP left over

haha. Funny.

At first I was going to comment about why is it funny, but I decided I should check my facts first and read Adapsin. Forgot about the whole "should not be available at character creation" thing.

I guess that's because our current game is several years after 2070 and therefore doesn't have that limitation.

Either way, 10 BP for biocompatability and save 20BP for skills/other traits/attributes. Then buy adapsin.

Perhaps we could approach this from a different angle. What if the ability read like:

That's about opposite to what I suggested, which was that the discount NOT apply to replacements (arms, eyes, etc) with capacity, and instead have it only apply to straight essence replacements. It was one on my list.

While I see the need for balance, the inclusion or exclusion of other part replacements seems almost arbitrary. Is there a good justification as to why Cranial or Torso replacements are left out?

Well, from a technical standpoint, cranial replacements and torso replacements are cyberlimbs because they are listed under the cyberlimb heading. Also, it was not my intention to exclude those. For clarity's sake, I suppose that they could be included in the listing.

My intention in this matter was to make it possible, or rather worthwhile, to do a (near) total body replacement without resorting to a cyborg or cyberzombie. I also though that cheapening the essence cost of Warez significantly would pose a very significant balance issue when one considers their relative nuyen cheapness.

It is the opposite of what you said… but why did you say it in the first place?

Why not reduced to 50%? I think there'd be pretty large ramifications if one could get deltaware at 25% essence (or free, if they stacked additively)

Hey come on mages aren't powerful enough yet they need essence loss free cyberware just to be competitive.

For that reason, I don't think cyberization should be discounted. It seems the furthest extreme, something that mages/adepts can reach some of with karma, but with less final caps. Previous threads have declared the overpowered possibilities. Rather, since it was originally compared to Type O system, with something as limited (and expensive) as bioware, so finding an even ground with a much less expensive part should be feasible.

That being said, if this idea was to be fine-tuned, it would be worth exploring some of the options in char gen. Since this quality, like type O system, has it's eye on the long-term prize, but with a significantly shorter path due to lower costs, it should either have some unavoidable detriment (not costs), or be exclusive to something in cyberware. Excluding geneware and/or bioware would not work in my opinion, as it is too easy to get by without when you have good cyberware at delta grade essence costs.

Body replacement only, though, is less exclusive than this needs to be. Allowing a blanket replacement with installed upgrades is extremely flexible and potentially powerful, so having enough essence to do ALL of that is hardly a limiting factor. Having installed specific ware is far less flexible, but even so is still not enough on it's own to balance.

Likewise, making the character pay costs that are too high (like betaware) and the savings may no longer outweigh 25-35 BP in qualities when so many other qualities are out there.