I'm making a Shadowrun Missions characters for Gen Con. The character has a headware comlink and I want to include a sim module. My question is whether I can add a sim module to the comlink as normal and implant the two together or if I have to buy the separate sim module headware? Since this is a Missions character, I need an official ruling.

You have to buy a separate sim module. No freebies. And strictly by the book... even if you were by fluff to have the sim module built into the commlink you'd still need to buy it as a separate accessory.


Look at the cyberware suites in Augmentation. Even the one which says includes a commlink with built-in sim-module. Pays an additional essence cost for the sim module. (calculate the essence cost of the suite and you come up 0.2 short). There would be no reason for an implantable sim module if you could get away with that kind of a dodge in the book.

Now, what you can do is snag a datajack and connect to an external commlink that also has a hotsim module accessory.

Or, if you're feeling really paranoid about being hacked back, implant just the hotsim module and use an external commlink.

Its worth noting that a Simrig automatically comes with a built-in sim module, and its almost cheaper to get THAT hotsimm hacked than getting a seperate hotsim implant.

Yeah, nothing about this stuff makes any sense.

There are a few other head-scratchers out there, like how the Defiance EX Taser has a built-in contact port that allows you to use it in melee like a stun baton but with better damage and at less than half the cost (And a lower availability AND unrestricted!), while the 50 Y Survival Knife includes a 200Y GPS.

Gear is kinda weird.

Shhh! You're giving away my "get rich quick" secrets! Buy survival knives, remove the GPS, and resell GPS. Nuyen out the wazoo!

The most infuriating one is emotitoys. 3000 of empathy software for 600 with no availability rating. Emotitoys are all out banned in the games I run. It's also pretty annoying that the eye recording unit retinal mod costs more than even the most expensive cyber eye, which includes an eye recording unit and an image link. My character is an elf, so I wanted to get retinal mods in order to preserve my natural low light vision but doing so was much more expensive than just getting my eyes replaced.

Emotitoys have always bothered me as well. I'm curious, though, if anyone actually allows them, and if so what effect it has had on their game. Also, has there ever been an explanation for the price discrepancy?

The effect of emotitoys on a game depends on whether your GM is a dumb ass or not. If your GM is a dumb ass then you will always beat the NPCs on social rolls because you have an emotitoy that gives you plus six dice and they do not (because the GM is a dumb ass and hasn't been able to figure out how your social dice pools are so high). If your GM is not a dumb ass, but for some reason has not banned emotitoys, then all they are is dice inflation because everyone one will have a rating 6 emotitoy (except PCs with particularly dumb players).

Ha, tell us how you really feel! Not that I disagree, heh. Something like the 'toy/Empathy software makes sense for the setting, but the bonus is simply too big. … So make it smaller.

If I had my druthers, they'd all die in a fire.

Maybe Horizon will start sponsoring 'runs against their factory to put them out of business? Then the rarity will go, up the street prices will jump to 6000Y or more, bringing them back with theprice/power curve.

If there's a way to get them together into a giant ball and shoot 'em into the Sun, I'll back it all day long.

Empathy software itself is not nearly so bad. It can only have a rating equal to your comlink's system or response (whichever is lower) and you have to have cyber eyes or an eye recording unit to use it (or a hidden drone or spy camera pointed at the targets face, but that's a bit less practical and a sensible GM would apply penalties for doing so)

I wouldn't call it impractical. I can't think of a game where I didn't have whole suites of sensors trained on people all the time, including personal stuff. Even without that, you don't need any cyber, because trodes (simrig) are handling that. But yes, you're right: the main issues with the 'toy are 'uncapped' Rating, and 'having a toy there'.

emotitoys seem broken in our game as well, since the GM balances them by having our opposing team using them also. In-person negotiations can almost always assume both sides are with a +6 bonus, and we do a lot of interactions by Matrix to bypass such abuse. Usually gear whose sole purpose is to give a bonus, that no one worth his salt would ever be without, tends to be unbalanced.

Even all sides being equal that way, +6 dice from the thing cheapens a faces BP/karma paid stats. With emotitoy, our standard runner rolls about 8-10 dice for socials, and our mages can sit at 14 or more. A face having 20 dice in comparison is nice, about 80%-100% higher. But without the toy, it would be 2-4, 6-8, and 14, making the face 700% of the lowest dice pool instead. Relatively, it's a major difference just by taking away emotitoy.

I find the 6 dice extremely excessive. That is double what you get from glamour, maxed-out kinesics, or maxed-out tailored pheromones. And it is yet another social skill modifier which stacks with everything else, which is the last thing social skills need.

I agree 100% and emotitoys just don't exist at my table. Pure houserule territory, but I also don't allow Kinesics to stack with Tailored Pheremones to stop Adept/Mys Ad being a must for face characters and put skilled mundanes back to within a few dice of their awakened counterparts. And before I get a backlash of "Oh no, you can't possibly do that" from the forum, let me point out that the Adept Power Increase (Social) Skill still makes Adepts better than their mundane counterparts can hope ever to be at facing for a ridiculous cost of 0.25PP/level ...

Pikachu I choose you!

I feel bad outright banning anything, but emotitoys are bad enough that even my players don't seem to like them. Who wrote them into the setting in the first place, anyway? I'm surprised the writer hasn't popped up to defend him/herself yet.

Since additional dice to a dicepool is limited by Skill + Attribute the tables I play at are not too worried about Emotitoys. Johnsons don't use them - they have the actual software (and the thermographic one that adds an additional +2 for detecting lies), so I don't much see the problem. If cost is the only thing you're worried about then I remind you that you can buy both (emotitoy, software) with only one build point - and yes, the 'ware is five times more expensive than the toy, but it's inconsequential. I've never even done a 'run that pays out less than 2k per person (as in: money is not an issue). When you factor in how easy it is to get bonuses to a social skill it ends up not really mattering too much anyways (not to mention how... less useful/important social skills are. You can easily have mitigating circumstances that automatically come into play with regards to social skills - the Johnson can't pay out above a certain amount, the guard still doesn't trust you with a drawn weapon, the ork gangers still don't like an elf, ect.).

That being said, I can see a push for Emotitoys being capped at rating 3 under their current costs. That fulfills their fluff role while still allowing the software to pull ahead.

That may be. But Is it really abused (of course a magically adept face will be better than a non-magically adept face)? Pornomancer builds on Dumpshock aside, I have never seen it abused at an actual table, therre are just way too many other things that are interesting to have, and you can only have a max of 3 Levels of Increase (Social) Skill, and there are other requirements that must be satisfied (Required Skill levels to actiuall use the SKill Boosts).

I think a rating 1 cap is more than sufficient for the Emotitoy, since it is nothing more than a toy (Furby anyone?). Want the good bonuses, get the good hardware and programs.

Of course, we do not use the Emotitoy at our table. It exists, but only as a toy for children.

It's obviously much more than 'just a toy'. That's not the problem. The problem is: a) its rating *stacks* as a DP mod, b) it's underpriced, c) Empathy software probably shouldn't be *that* powerful anyway.

If they want to make 'social interaction' autosofts, that's fine (… that's what a 'friend toy' should have), but you wouldn't expect up to a +6 *DP mod* from such a thing. Humans already have a high 'social autosoft' baseline and duplicating that wouldn't aid them. The extra stuff (facial microgestures, etc.) is what we want, and it should provide a modest bonus for a reasonable price.

I am personally leaning toward houserule limiting the effectiveness of any individual dice pool bonus to half the relevant linked attribute, just like the Adept skill boost.

So you could buy a Rating 6 emotitoy but if you have a Charisma of 2 it ain't gonna help much. And overall it has a practical limit of 3 or so for most folks.



-k

Well, that's something that's been bandied about a lot for all kinds of DP mods. On one hand, you've got 'the more skilled you are, the better you can use the bonus'; but, there's also 'more-skilled people have less to gain from this'. Obviously, these are exactly in opposition. It kind of depends on the specific mod, for me. Some things are crutches for beginners (possibly very effective ones!), while others offer subtle edges that only a master can make use of. … And some things are in between, or offer a combination of 'bonus effects' that balance out in the end.

Examples of these aren't too hard for us to imagine. A novice would benefit a lot from a recipe, an AR overlay 'instruction manual', or turn-by-turn navigation; an expert is already beyond each of those, given the appropriate situation. And an expert sniper gains a lot from knowing the range, temperature, wind, etc., while that raw data is meaningless to the less skilled. :/

For this *specific* issues (emotitoy/Empathy), I think we can agree that the bonus should be smaller in general, and that high-end social users already have vastly more than enough bonus sources.

We just use emotitoys as an alternative to a commlink for running empathy software so you can get high rating software and not pay out the nose for a good commlink if you don't need it.

No, in fact you do not. Adding a sim module as a comlink accessory is perfectly valid rules wise. Just because there's a vestigial piece of cybertech doesn't change that. There are quite a few vestigial pieces of cyber in 4th edition. Please do not speak with authority you do not posses. For the record I don't have much authority either, but my position is actually founded on the rules.

No Lurker,

You cut the second half of my post where I directly cited my source of authority. Your position is *NOT* based on the RAW or even RAI. No freebies. I point you at Augmentation p48 as well as SR4a. So unless you have a hard rules cite which CONTRADICTS this.

While I don't have any issues with someone buying and building a sim module into their commlink or as a seperate accessory. It's all fluff at that point. THEY STILL NEED TO PAY BOTH ESSENCE AND NUYEN COSTS.

Augmentation: Cyberware Suites...
"Shiawase-vector sigma II headware commlink (using the same stats as a fairlight caliban commlink, see p. 328, SR4A) with integrated sim module"
Now break down the costs of the cyber in the suite...
0.1 Imagelink
0.1 Datajack
0.3 Attention Coprocessor
0.15 Math SPU
0.2 Internal Commlink
0.2 *SIM MODULE*
Total 1.05. Alpha Suite Cost * 70% == 0.735 (published 0.74), Beta Suite Cost * 60% == 0.63 (published 0.63)

SR4a, Hacker p105
Essence cost Calculated with 0.2 essence spent on sim module (once again built into his commlink)
4.325 calculated. Published 4.32.

So I've just put up examples directly from two SR rulebooks... DESPITE saying the sim module is integrated into the commlink the essence & nuyen costs still must be paid. Now you can either cite to the contrary or be quiet or better yet do the math for yourself and see that every single cyberware suite pays 0.2 essence for the sim module! Your position is *NOT* founded on the rules. Where the sim-module resides is purely a function of fluff. Every single example including a sim-module in game pays the essence cost for it!



As far as the rest... it's far easier and far more essence friendly to just get the damn thing installed in cyberlimb capacity. It's 2 capacity for the commlink, and 2 more for the sim module. So a fake hand/food has more than enough space for one (and gives you +1 box of physical damage without gimping your stats since it's only a partial limb). It's 0.15 essence if memory serves for a hand/foot or 0.45 for a half-limb (with a lot more capacity). Also if I'm making a decker/rigger I've normally skimped on agility anyhow... so a tricked out limb with high score for my minimal skills with one handed pistols or SMG's is normally a smart move anyhow.

The pregens are rife with miscalculations and errors nothing new there. Ditto the suites, until you find some place in the book that says the sim module comlink addon MUST BE PAID WITH ESSENCE seperately. Your all huff and puff.

Also and for the record, i see no reason, logically, mechanically, or anything else to punish people who actually go the implanted link route, and take an essence hit for what they could get "for free" with a set of trodes, by further requiring them to pay essence for a sim module, which can be added as a snap in module to external 'links. And since I seriously doubt you can find an actual rule that supports that position I wish you luck in your struggles but have little else to discuss with you on the matter. It should be a gratis as part of the implantation process, nothing more nothing less.

In short, anecdotes don't equal rules, no matter how much you might think otherwise.

I'm not so concerned with the essence cost. The character in question is a face/infiltrator. I have plenty of essence to spare. For me the issue is that I didn't leave a lot of build points for gear, and an implanted sim module costs twenty times the amount of an external sim module. I've decided to use an external sim module connected to my implanted comlink via my datajack. My character is not a hacker so I don't need to have a sim module available to me at all times.

Actually Spica... the advantage of the sim module is in it grants access to full VR. Without that, you only have access to AR at your normal meat speeds. So it shouldn't be a huge problem to you. The other reason to have one isn't really pertinent since you have a datajack to run knowsoft/linguasofts on. For someone without datajack, they'd need to use a sim module to run those on (run on the sim module or datajack, they're not designed to be run on the commlink but on those standalone peripherals).

The main reason external commlinks need the Simsense module is for access to trodes and through them DNI. Internal commlinks have direct access to DNI though. So I don't believe you even need imagelink in your eyeballs or anything else (assuming you haven't cybered the eyes). An internal commlink with it's broadcaster shut off and access to your eyes is nice because it'll let you run empathy software and the like internally.



Lurker:
p220 SR4a.
"Implanted sim-modules can also be bought as add-ons for simrigs and implanted commlinks."

Yes the rules and examples aren't on your side... so you ignore them all. Pull out BS about the examples are wrong... the ONLY problem in the cyberware suites in arsenal was the original printing didn't involve this topic at all. The essence costs between the first and second printing were reprinted. Because the initial ones did Alpha (-20%) * Suite (-10%) == 0.72*base essence cost. This was errated in the reprint to be (-20%)+(-10%)==0.70*base essence cost. There has been no other errata or corrections. So that's two printings INCLUDING AN ERRATA which states you need to pay the essence cost for the sim module.

You ignore my cites, because YOU DON"T LIKE THEM. Well, tough... the rules and examples are directly against you. Unless you can cite rules TO THE CONTRARY. Don't attack others because you disagree with them unless you can back up your assertions with at least a rules or canon reference. And they went over the SR4a archetypes with a fine tooth comb to avoid the problems that showed up in the originals.

The OP asked about for a Missions... and a missions GM is not going to let him pull a fast one like that. Your GM may, or you may not like it because I'm pointing out something you're abusing and exploiting.

I'm going to be a lot more blunt and concise than some of the other people in this thread.

Saying one thing is nice, but back it up.

I want to see relevant quotes and page numbers to support your claim. If this actually works, then show your work.

I am a missions GM, so i guess on that one you are also explicitly wrong. For all that's worth, it means CGL throws me a shirt at cons and if run enough I gets my room and board put up. Pretty sweet deal. Not a GMing master race kind of thing not an infallable thing. It does mean I get rules lawyered, a lot on some worse stuff then this.

Again can is not must further as others have pointed out in that very same book Simrigs already come with a module so buying an additional module would be kind of pointless. Again, bad anecdote which is also does not directly require what you think it requires.

Again, the plural of anecdote is neither rules nor data. Stringing enough bad anecdotes together over what is ultimately a relatively trivial point doesn't change that.



P. 328 SR4A.

Here's the deal once again, if you can find anywhere, anywhere at all that says you cannot modify an internal link with a sim module or you must use an implanted module with an implanted link fine. Until then it's just one more little cyberware oddity and rule you can't prove. I'm not ignoring your citations because I don't like them, i'm reading over them and disregarding them because they do not do what you think they do. The fact that the pregens, or the cyberware suites, or anything else was built based on that doesn't change that. If the rule was in the book you wouldn't need to crunch numbers to prove it's existence.

Also do you know who implanted modules are really there for? Chip junkies, you get your hot module implanted the cops or others can't shake it off you. Well they can it just requires a knife and a bad attitude. Of course that implies that you'd spend 4 times as much (as the op said) on an internal module instead of an external one. Pointless punative rule is pointless and punative, and ultimately doesn't exist.

For what it's worth I'm sorry if i took the tone up where it didn't need to be. But once again, the rules do not say what you think they say. Which is fine, right up until the point you hold it out to other people as coming from a point of authority.

We use emotitoys as is. we don't house rule in our game, the only thing we have disallowed is war, we use the rules but not the gear, but that's really more so because we are running a grimy street type game, and people running around with ultra high end mil tech wouldnt make anysense. I'm definately not a fan of house rules.

Similarly page 338. Cyberware... headware... commlink... "An implanted version of the commlink (p.327), popular with hackers and salaryman on the go. A Sim Module (modified for hot sim or not) may be implanted at additional cost".

It does not say may be built into the commlink for free, it says IMPLANTED at additional cost. You don't implant accessories into things you implant cyberware augmentations though.


Similarly, can is not must. Because you can use an internal commlink directly through DNI if you don't mind being limited to AR. There is nothing in that reading that contradicts any RAW or published example, If you want full VR, you can install a simsense module as well. So it's a major increase in ability for a mere 1BP or less ($2000 2VR passes, $5000 3hotsim passes and bonuses). Those are major advantages for a very very cheap price! Despite all of this, most people complain that hackers are too cheap! (it only takes a SMALL amount of resources to make one, leaving plenty of BP for adding a strong secondary skillset if hacker isn't the secondary skillset).


Also incorrect on the BTL bit. All that's needed to play most BTL's is a datajack or chipjack. Nothing more, p259, p339 SR4a. Just as I disagree with your rationale for the implanted sim module is that it only exists for junkies. Hotsim modified cheap sim modules start at $250. So a junky is going to pay 20x as much ($5000) for the implanted version. Sorry I'm not sold... not for that much of a cost differential.


Similarly you've provided not one wit of source to contradict anything I've said so far. If it's not intended to be used as such, why is it always installed and the full costs tallied, even when the fluff says it's built-into the link itself. I have never seen a single example where it hasn't been done so in any official publication. You simply prefer that it not be required because as you put it 'external + trodes is practically free'. By that same token, a cheap external unit could be plugged into a datajack for the same functionality. So you take issue with my cited sources and arguments to impose your own personal preference. Despite not one wit of support in the source for it. Everything in source points against it in fact. I think that clearly indicates the RAI and clearly illustrates the RAW.



I don't see it as a huge problem either... in terms of costs it's damn cheap at a mere 0.2 essence or 2 capacity and $5k. Especially if you stuff it in cyberlimb capacity.

The same happens with the internal commlink. The cyber listing is for having it imbedded into your head (cost and essence). You still have to have the commlink (i.e. you have to buy it separately). The cyber listing for the sim module is not for the module itself, it is for the cost and essence to imbed it. You still have to by the sim module accessory to go with the commlink you purchased.


I would love to see those hacker builds. I typically go through 250k everytime I build my hackers. They are not cheap, especially if you want a secondary skill set.

I suppose it depends if you play with the cracked software prices (10% of base price + upkeep) in Unwired or with the legal software prices.

SYL

Hackers aren't my area of specialty, but it seems to me that a lot of the cost comes from making your character effective at matrix combat. If you eschew that and concentrate solely on the sneaky stuff, I imagine they are cheaper.

Check the first link in my sign for a few examples.

I was referring to the ones that say they are so cheap. Your Combat Hacker has 60BP in money which is 10K more that I usually use (I don't get the quality that allows the extra 10BP for money).

Oh, I thought you meant cheap overall, not "eats a lot of your starting nuyen." Keep in mind that it's only about 60kny in programs and such, and 90kny in 'ware to enhance hacking; the rest is all combat stuff. Mundanes pretty much always want to max out their allowed nuyen; it's just a question of how much you spend on what.

Mea culpa. I can't find the part in arsenal that allows it to be integrated into the comlink like i thought I would. Without that your argument trumps. I will now eat my words with ketchup and find them tasting of ash and heinz.

My concerns about cost is relative. One thing I absolutely hate about fourth edition, is this idea that not only is ware passe, but that there are external versions of ware with zero drawbacks. The fact that trodes perform just as well as datajacks, goggles plus skinlink is almost as good as eyes. It's just all part of the whole Magicrun package that I hate so much.

It's in Unwired's mod section.
Or it would be, if it exists.
There are things there that make VR better ,but not an actual standalone VR unit.

I'm kind of of the mind that there should be, though.

Yeah, that's my take, Udoshi. You know how much I care about RAW for little issues like this. I'd be okay with making the Sim Module a for-real standalone and slightly bulk unit if the fluff committed to it, sort of 'VR is a big deal now but still not invisible' thing? But I feel like the fluff *doesn't* act like that. They act like it's commlink + trodes and away you go.

... and like the OP said, no reason you can't have the internal commlink attached via datajack or wireless to an external sim module ...

You can, but it's annoying.

On my table it is not abused as you would call it because the shaman doubles as the group's face. But by the rules, you could rock out with a CHA 8 elf adept with Kinesics 3, Tailored Pheremones 3, Influence group 4, Improved Skill 2 on one or two special skills ...

Damn you, you've just given me an idea - The above with Magic 1 (down from 2, for the pheremone essence, maybe cybereyes in the bargain. Give her AGI 2 for the clutziest of elves, but when she accidently spills her drink has six suitors offering to buy her another. For added kicks, give her Combat Paralysis ("Oh my god, there're like real bullets whizzing around. It's like dangerous, I can't believe you guys brought me to this place. Will somebody do something. Hello?") ... Think I'll have to stat her out ...

I've considered doing a similiar thing with a technomancer face - as a surged clueless blond.
Yes, someone surged to be the epitome of blond steriotypes. metagenetic charisma, impaired logic, unusual hair, and i think partially reduced hearing. Maybe albinism for the blond hair blue eyes factor. I forget what all was on there.

Might be worth considering, if you're doing that joke, though.

You need a Magic of at least 3 to have Kinesics: 3. But other than that, having a face who is supernaturally compelling, but clumsy, uselesss in combat, and dumb as a post, would be interesting to play.