I think this deserves its own Thread






So here i am
Yes, I made a " Jumper " named Meteor
a 300 Kilo Fomori Pitfighter with Two Raptor Legs, Hydraulic Jacks lvl 5 and Climbing Claws ( and some Martial Arts & Maneuvers like Capoeira,Full Offense, Finishing Move) 12 Dice for his Claws and 17 Dice to Jump
I normally make two Rolls (1 to Jump and 1 to Hit) and tell the GM how many Successes I got.
Mostly the GM goes or and thats it

With a Jumping Jack Flash Dance
Medicineman

how would straight adding Falling Damage turn out?

Video games tell us that dropping onto others from above instantly knocks them out.






-k

Or that it pops them inside their armour which you can then pick up and throw at other enemies (but be careful because it bounces off walls and comes back).

Or you end up hurting yourself because they like to stylize themselves after German uniforms of WW1.

Ramming/Bull-Rush damage would be a viable way of solving this.
Or Falling Damage taken by both and resisted by impact Armor on both sides.

That's what you said last time, but I couldn't find anything similar to Bull Rush in SR4. Do you have a pageref?

If you're using the Jacks to reduce your falling damage, I'd say that applies to both. The legs are absorbing the impact, which means they're not hitting the person (or the ground) as hard.

I think you basically need a house-rule MA Maneuver 'Pounce', because there's nothing really similar (no 'Jump Kick'). You could also call it a variant form of Charge, but that's a measly +2 and they can receive it if they're able.

Might be Charge in english, i am not sure.
Don't know much about the Martial Arts.

Otherwise, don't have the Jump itself do Damage but give the Higher Position bonus and use it simply as a means of getting into reach for a grapple attack for example.

Oh, I dig. I thought you said it was an MA Maneuver. Charge is in the core book, gives +2 DP/negates running penalty.

Yeah, that makes sense in terms of working with what's RAW: Superior Position, possibly along with Charge (total +4). I have a feeling people using a 'jumper build' are thinking they'll get tons of bonus damage from it, though.

Doesn't superior position give more than one die? O.o
Also: jumpers are not for attacking, they are for advancing/running away.
Any attacky made are usually done after the actual jump, not with the jump.
Stupid ammounts of damage? Sure, you can have that, but you take falling damage as per usual.
And anything that helps you negate falling damage also applies to the target of your jump.

I usually add the mods Charge (+2), the Maneuver All-Out Attack (+2) and Superior Position (+2)
for my "Death from Above " Attack
and the GM adds some Damage (because my Fomori Weights 300 Kilos and He's got Raptorlegs with Claws)
depending upon the Net Hits from my jump roll

With a Dance from Above
Medicineman

Right, that's the bit I'd have a problem with: "the GM adds some Damage (because my Fomori Weights 300 Kilos and He's got Raptorlegs with Claws)". Claw and Raptor damage already have their own bonuses, and the actual impact shouldn't just give you a further bonus. As Stahlseele said, Falling Damage should be fairly shared.

Targets who see the jump coming should have an easy time moving away - I´m a cheerleading base, my RL direction is towards the fall at top speed. Once you jumped off, your center mass trajectory is mostly fixed. There is time to do stuff.

So put in a flat threshold for dodging away completely, and use "defender prone" on the attacker for one IP to simulate the landing phase.

Targets who see the jump coming should
....start to pray


and use "defender prone" on the attacker for one IP to simulate the landing phase.
Thats allready included in the Maneuver All Out Attack

with an All Out Dance
Medicineman

The problem is that physics doesn't quite match the rules, and vice versa.

If you drop off a building and land on someone, they're probably going to take more damage no matter what. Why? Because they're acting as your crumple zone. When you first impact them, yes they're transfering just as much energy into you as you are into them, but as you are still several feet from the ground and they are not, they're taking additional force from the ground. So while you're each suffering a mutual force of X, they are also suffering an additional ground force of Y. And as we all know, X < X + Y (assuming non-negative variables). When you finally finish moving through the person you've landed on to strike the ground, you now face a ground force of Z, and since you've bled off a lot of force smashing through the poor sod you landed on, Z < Y.

The ultimate important fact is that you've decelerated over a longer distance and across more surface area. You've come to a less sudden stop thanks to the gentle resistance of the meat and bones of your opponent lacerating and splintering beneath you, and you therefor suffer a less damaging landing.

Add into that factors such as the claws on the raptor legs delivering force over a very small pointed area through soft and fragile flesh (while absorbing the same amount of force across a larger area resisted via sturdy metal construction), and the person you land on is going to be suffering a lot more hurt than you.

~Umi

That's fine, I'm not talking about physics. I'm talking about game balance.

Neither the h-jacks nor Free Fall would reduce damage to the target. The jacks work by cushioning the fall (by compressing the jack, change the kinetic energy of the fall into potentjal energy); and, well, magic. The target still has an object falling on them from xmeters high. Yes, the jumper should roll fall damage, but the target should roll some equivalent plus an appropriate modifier. My adept doesn't way more than 150lbs. so it wouldn't be a lot in his case. Of course, he also carries slap patch with high level sedatives on them.

I don't think it's really all that imbalancing to increase the damage of a melee attack made while jumping. I just wish there were rules for it, period.

It seems like a common enough concept to merit some rules, doesn't it? A ninja climbs onto a ceiling above a doorway and ambushes a guard by dropping on him with a katana. A troll drops into an alleyway from a second story roof and lands boot-first on the collarbones of a yakuza soldier on a smoke break. A fist adept with Great Leap throws himself at a mook shooting down at the team from a low-hanging catwalk and sucker punches him clean off of it. These might not occur all the time, but surely they're not rare?

If increasing your strength increases your damage with melee attacks, your velocity should do so as well. If you're on horseback charging with a claymore, you should hit harder than if you were on foot. If you roar down the street on a motorcycle and kick a ganger square in the jaw with your cyberleg, it should knock out a few more teeth than just running up and punching him would. And if you jump off of a shipping container and drive a spear through someone's brainpan, they should be far less likely to survive than if you just stabbed them from a standstill.

I admit, the risk of taking damage from a Leap Attack should exist. Not only is jumping dangerous, but the benefits you gain from the Leap ttack should have some sort of cost or risk associated with them, much like casting spells incurs the costs and risks of Drain. But much like casting a spell is typically far more dangerous for the person being attacked, so should Leap Attacking be far more dangerous for the person whom you land on.

"But that's not balanced! You'd be gaining bonus damage to the damage you already do with your melee attack, and you'd be doing it at ranges of up to 10, 20, maybe even 30 or so meters!" Sure. At the costs of investing in Gymnastics, attributes, specialized gear, specialized 'ware, adept powers, or some combination thereof to not only be able to 1) jump the necessary distance but also 2) reliably stage down the "Drain" damage a Leap Attack would incur. Meanwhile, any mage worth their salt can use the same Complex Action to outdamage a melee fighter at unlimited range (so long as they have line of sight), and still reliably stage down their magical Drain.

Just make Leap Attack do an amount of Bonus Damage and an amount of "Drain" that put it in line with spells. The total damage caused by the combination of the Melee Attack's damage and the Leap Attack's bonus damage should be roughly in line with the damage output of spells. And the total "Drain" of the Leap Attack should be roughly comparable to the Drain of a spell which deals the same level of damage. Spells will still be indisputably better (because of their better range, lower costs, and better concealability), and melee fighters who devote the resources to be able to jump significant distances and handle the "Drain" of doing so will have a bit more flexibility.

~Umi

That doesn't make sense, MADness.

Umidori, I agree that it's a thing there should be rules for. I'm not sure it needs to be a DV increase, though; at most, a small one. The ninja, etc. are all getting a huge bonus from Surprise, not necessarily from the landing. I also see pretty often in the movies (which is what counts, heh) the dropper falling down with the droppee, so it really depends on what we're talking about.

If we're already stipulating at least a +4 dice effect (Superior, and Charge), that's not nothing. Adding net hits from Jump (a *very* easy DP to inflate) is easily too much (and those net hits are already going toward distance/landing). So it needs to be somewhere between that. Using the Falling rules gives us a little better basis, but now you have to drag out the Falling rules. At least the numbers are quite low (in the movies, you're not dropping on people from 20m away).

So. I agree that if you just *have to* give bonus DV, you should use the Falling rules, and the faller should suffer something equal or close (at least half) to the Falling Damage. It's very little, it's resisted with Impact, and it's like your 'Drain'. (Though I have zero idea why you'd compare this to spells.)

Dice pool bonuses should be sufficient, since they can end as increased damage in the first place. It is actually quite difficult to land such moves; so much that they are taught differently than a 5 ft or less jump, where you can still swing reliably. Jumping down on someone with a sword from a height would be better without the swing (since you can break your sword or your arm) but instead brace the blade and fall. The drop does all the work. I can see a relatively small DV bonus for this. I've also never seen any training or use of falling from higher than 10 ft using a weapon. After this, you're aiming to use their body as a cushion for yours.

I have a climber unarmed specialist who uses a similar tactic: cling to walls and drop on unsuspecting target. We've been using the drop as a charge attack, and the damage as the fall damage. I can see doing the weapon bonus only (axe would be +3, no strength used) because of the above statement about dropping, but that would take some actual training in real life. We've been having the attacker use gymnastics (aimed jump, body is a cushion, roll on impact: whatever flavor you care to call it) to mitigate fall damage, and then resisting the rest.


Something like:
Fall Damage + small bonus for DV (weapon dependent, common sense, no bonus for unarmed), charge attack bonuses for attack and position bonus. Defender dodges (if aware). Attacker rolls gymnastics + agility to mitigate fall distance, then resists fall damage.

I could also see using the Improved Weapon (metahuman body) rules, with tweaks.

The only real problems I have with the fall damage solution is twofold.

1) The leaper should take less "Fall" damage than the leapee. After all, the person on bottom is cushioning the person on top.

2) Defending against a single attack should only get a single soak - so if the fall damage is the only extra damage, it needs to be directly added to the DV of the attack. It can't just be tacked on such that you roll to stage the attack, then roll to stage the extra fall damage.

~Umi

I see this as two distinct attacks:
Attack 1: leaping attack. This attack is used to close distance rapidly and catch your opponent unaware or not quite ready. Use Charge + Superior Position bonuses and call it a day. You could also toss in MA abilities if they seem applicable.

Attack 2: drop attack. This is the waiting above and hoping that your target walks under you. My take on this is the attacker should roll a Jumping test (Agility + Gymnastics (jumping)) with a threshold based on the distance fallen/jumped down. Use a threshold of 1 per 2m (round up). The defender should make a standard melee defense check as normal. Consider both attacker and defender as 0 (zero) reach for this opposed test. Consider the distance from the point of impact (defender’s head) not the ground.

Damage to the target would be (Attacker's Body)/2 (round up) + Weapon damage modifier + 1 per 2m jumped down (round down). Armor penetration of the attacker's weapon should apply. The attacker should resist falling damage as per normal except they can choose use part of their net hits from jumping down/attack to help mitigate the falling damage. They get to add half of the target's body (round up) as a bonus to their body for the soak roll. Any net hits not used to mitigate the falling damage should be applied to the damage to the defender as normal. Use standard knockdown rules for the defender. If the attacker takes any damage from the fall he is prone.

This is just a rough draft of HOUSE RULES to cover this situation. "Attack 2: drop attack" may need a little tweaking, but IMHO I think this might work out pretty good. You could also apply the Superior Position to this, but with as easy as climbing dice are to get it probably isn’t needed.

Just my 2 ¥
-D

Examples:
None really needed for Attack 1.

Attack 2:
Human "Ninja" drop-attacking a roving guard.
Ninja: Body 4, Agility 6, Gymnastics (Jumping) 4 (+2), Katana (S/2)+3P -1AP, Armor (6B/4I)
Guard: Body 5, Agility 4, Unarmed (block) 3 (+2), Armor (8B/6I)

Ninja is hiding 4m above the roving guard’s path and waits to drop. Surprise is rolled and the guard is not surprised.

Ninja rolls his drop attack test (Agility (6) + Gymnastics (jumping) (6)). 12 dice rolled for 4 hits. Because the attack is from 4m there is a threshold of 2 leaving Ninja with 2 net hits.

Guard rolls (Agility (4) + Unarmed (block) (5)). 9 dice rolled (poorly) with only 1 hit.

Ninja has 1 net hit. He decides to place it towards damage, so the guard is now soaking (Body/2 (2) + Katana (3) (only the modifier counts here) + 4m jumped down (2) + 1 net hit) for a total of 8P -1AP.

Ninja also need to soak 4m falling damage with (Body (4) + ½ Impact Armor (3) + ½ Target’s Body (3)) rolling 10 dice vs. the 4m fall. If Ninja does not soak the full damage he is considered prone. If he takes no damage from the fall he is on his feet and ready.

Personally, I wouldn't give any damage bonus. Bonus dice to the knockdown maneuver, yes.

why no damage bonus? Damage from drop>3 meters can be quite high, and I don't see how it would just disappear. And I would think it would still affect both people. A 2 story drop is 6 meters, which would be 6 DV. Last drop my wall-crawler did was 3 stories.

@Umi
The only way I can see of doing the body-landing damage mitigation thing is an opposed agility+gymnastics (dropper) OR melee attack+agility (which depends on GMs view of this) vs gymnastics/dodge+reaction (dropee), because landing on someone isn't automatic, and cushioning your fall requires you hit them precisely, or you're eating some concrete as well. It requires a fair bit of aim and skill. Since that becomes an opposed check anyway, it would create the difference in damage distribution I originally suggested.

I am on Medicineman's side of the spectrum - I would give the attack DP bonuses he quoted if applicable and call it a day.

To me, the advantage of such drop/jump attacks should be the potential for surprise. The security mooks hunkered down behind the crate might expect the big bad runners to come at them from either flank, but will probably not be expecting someone to jump clean over the frigging crate onto them, nor be expecting a ninja to drop down from above the doorway they have just gone through.

I have made (but never played) a mundane ork ex-boxer who with Athletics 4, Synthcardium 3 and soft-capped STR and BOD who I figured would use this superhuman jumping tactic to set to on the bad guys. I figured he would aim for a knockdown on one (of if the GM allowed it, more than one) opponent, then laying into whoever was left standing while the knocked down dudes recovered. I think it would have been a blast ...

Because charge doesn't give damage bonus either. You don't get to add charged distance / 2 (just a random number off the top of my head) to your damage, even if it can be quite a momentum you've built up.
Or vicious blow in itself. It's the same damage, just physical.
Or just about anything else you can do as a combat option. If I start handing out a damage bonus on ONE particular thing, it becomes better than everything else.
The SR system is not equipped to handle ramming attacks between characters, so I go the safe route.
Don't get me wrong, I like characters that stretch the rules until they must either give or bend, but for me, those are more of a proof of concept kind of thing than characters that actually _bring_ something into play.
So yeah. You could play them. And if you leap, you don't get to add your weight or your jacks or your fallen distance or whatever. You get a plain old +2 to knockdown (additionally to the charge bonus, probably), regardless if you're a troll or a dwarf.
And if you climbed and no one looked up, the enemy may even be surprised and not able to defend himself. That in itself is powerful enough.

Solid, bannockburn. Particularly thinking like this:

Its clearly sensible to increase damage if you are moving faster. Game balance has little to do with it: the bad guys can drop on the good guys too.

It adds fun to the game if the players can do things to change how much damage they do. It makes spending the time getting into position worthwhile. It makes it worthwhile taking acrobatics or climbing.

Making rules for this is hard because: do you include swinging from a rope rules, do you include jumping from a pogo stick...at what point do you stop making rules.

So add some extra damage. Personally I would add some damage based on how cool the player made the effect sound, and the height involved would add 1.."players body" damage. In terms of damage, treat it as falling onto a soft surface, and give extra armor equal to the targets body.

I don't think it's sensible to just add X DV to the attack. You still need to hit right. Thus: Extra dice as in charge.

Really happy with your approach too. Which ever the GM likes.

That's an easy enough change on the house rule. You could also simply move the +1 per 2m to the attack test if you'd rather. That's the nice thing about house rules, they are easy to change.

-D