So, as the poll above implies, I have a few half-baked design stubs for fan supplements. Would you be interested in any?

Gunfu without the Gay part. Military training. Police schools. Quantico. Different shooting stances maybe.

Went with Day Job because the game needs more to do in down time.

I'm all for additional security and mines. Using monofilament wire and grenade tripwires as traps is getting old
My secondary choice would be Day Jobs and everyday stuff, because downtime needs some more flavour

Edit: I would also love some fanfiction about the Chernobyl incident in the shadowrun universe and maybe a campaign?

the last thing we need is more combat stuff. Voted for Jobs.

I personally would love to see more setting books. Runner Havens, Corporate Enclaves, and Feral Cities are three of my favorite books. Specifically, what I'd like to see is an updated NAN sourcebook, and a book on the Tirs.

I'd be happy to oblige, but I don't know the fluff of the affected areas good enough I'm afraid. I'm writing the alt.War piece on Russia and Awakened Yakut, but that one's easy because so far they haven't been mentioned in the books all too much, unlike the NAN.

Jobs. I want to know what kind of drek I have to deal with if I'm pulling a shift at the Stuffer Shack or McHugh's.

EDIT: Oh $Deity! No, those wouldn't be my jobs, my job would be: "Hello, thank you for calling MicroDeck Tech Support, how can I help you? ... ... ... Have you tried turning the CommLink off-and-on again?"

Apropos of Jobs: my initial plan had been just writing up a huge table of available professions, and then add a few ways to modify them, but as I was writing those, I noticed that pretty much any job in the table can be described with just the qualities: for example, a bodyguard's work is pretty much that of a bouncer, plus belonging to a corporation, plus a right to bear firearms, plus higher risk, minus the chance to get contacts out of the job.
So right now my draft mostly includes the building pieces to construct the job with, and then a few example professions.

I had a member in my group who wanted to make a Nartaki Technomancer that was a Cab Driver and a Tech Support Agent... At the same time.

I'd personally like to see Day Jobs, Missiles and Gun-Fu.

Day jobs: Seriously everything, there's a lot of room to expand here.
Rockets: Not a huge section or entire book, but some rules a-la war!'s grenade expansions that make the things actually useful. Specifically: Some more iron-clad in the rules Vehicle Sensor or Missile Sensor, Whichever Is Greater, airburst links as a weapon mod(fuck accessories being the only source of it) and/or software.
Gun-Fu. I'd like to see the martial art's system expanded upon to include fighting styles and combat training that isn't purely beat-em-up facepunch. Its status as a 'skill expansion that isn't quite a quality' has plenty of room to include things like athletic discipline, military training(how bout a maneuver for underbarrel weapons, so laser targeters are actually useful for someone with automatics?), or even Archery. Since its basically a 'Skill Plus', I'd really like some expansion into the quality costs - perhaps something akin to Surge qualities - so that it eats less into 'real quality' limits.

None of these I intend to make huge, frankly ; it's going to be something more akin to Cyborgs Unveiled I've made already, that is, a few pages of extra rules, maybe a few suggested ways to modify them, and then extra items/maneuvers/what have you.
Specifically what I have in mind for missiles is a way to design them a bit more flexibly, picking first the class, then the propulsion, then the homing systems, and then the warhead. Giving a few options like directed blasts for warheads or different kinds of sensors for the homing systems will hopefully give you a nice design framework to play with, receiving useful missile types at the end.

What I have in mind for gun-fu is for starters what one of my players, Heckfy[Ex], has suggested. Currently there is only a single Martial Art, Krav Maga, that gives you useful abilities for gun wielders, namely making Ready Weapon and Take Aim free actions. Since that art is neither a secret nor a magical one, I just fail to see any reason for others not to pick up the techniques used. So the basic idea is having a few (military) martial arts with those, maybe bonuses for implant combat, maybe things similar to Quick Draw that allow you to incorporate a Free Action into a Single Action with a simple test, like Quick Reload or Quick Change Mode. Then we've been discussing maneuvers for gun wielders like double tap and fanning the hammer, but I have certain doubts about it.

Could you please elaborate on your ideas? What do you mean by athletic discipline? How can we make laser targeters more useful?

Lets see. It may take me a bit to find more notes. Off the top of my head....

First: Laser DESIGNATORS - the target spotters. I was thinking of a Maneuver that let you use the basic gun skill for any weapon addons that are slapped onto it.
So an assault rifle with a missile-guiding laser on top cuts down on Exotic Weapon Dumbness. It makes Underbarrel Shotguns/grenade launchers more useful, too.

As far as actual SHOOTING style bonuses?
A free action per pass that can only be used for Changed Linked Device Mode is worth it - modern military training should emphasize making full use of Smartlinks and their ability to control basically all gun settings.
A free point of RC on SA mode for the pistoleers would be worth it - removing the need for personalized grips through lots of experience.
Auto-passing quickdraw tests, or reducing the threshold to 1 seems like a good style bonus - natural combo with the iajutsu maneuver.
Ready Weapon and Take Aim are no-brainers.
a Free Zoom action for snipers would be nice - not take aim, just zoom.
how bout a style bonus for reducing a called shot penalty by 1? You still need to burn an action to use it.
Reduced range penalties by 1(not entire range steps) could be good.

If you want to get into more advanced rules, bonuses that enhance Leadership things from War - i was breezing over Coordination earlier - or enhance tacnets/reduce entrance penalties. Some sort of teamwork bonuses might be appropriate for more military styles.

A professional athlete "style" might be interesting. Dice pool bonuses on Physical tests, fatigue reductions, maybe an extra box of stun. perhaps Swimming/running/gymnastics dice boosts to keep it competitive.

I'd like to see an Archery Style: Auto-passing quick-draw tests, reducing range steps, maybe a special twin-arrow/miniburst mode if you really wanna be william tell.
I'd like to see a Jab or Lightning Strike maneuver that lets you melee as a Simple Action, but only once per pass. Makes melee a little bit more competitive through multitasking without doubling its firepower.
I'd like to see a Maneuver(flexible training?) that lets you change your specialties around without paying karma to overwrite them. Make the test to learn it again, and spend some time to affect the change, but giving a weapon specialist time to change their weapon preferences out during downtime isn't OP.
I'd like to see a maneuver for Suppressive Fire(hold down the trigger?) - there's a current bug in the rules that means someone with 1 pass can supress an entire combat turn, while someone with multiple passes has to waste more actions and bullets for the same effect. A maneuver that says 'oh no, skip me, i'm still suppressing' might be interesting, but maybe not worth the points.

Found my notes. Interestingly, it was in the E-Kung Fu file.
New Maneuver: Hotkey: once per action phase/init pass, you may Change Linked Device Mode without using an action

Basically, DNI/smartlinks are -supposed- to be quick and fast, but free actions....really aren't. This one lets you twiddle your weapons settings, like the choke or swapping to an underbarrel grenade launcher freely - and its more balanced than handing out another free action per pass.

Or possibly, "when using a smartlinked smartgun, changed linked device mode on that device doesn't take an action'.

How about extending limit on a maximum allowed Take Aim actions? Doubling effect of Take Aim? Ability to Zoom with regular take aim. Benefits for ranged "martial arts" that give you boni for non shooting skills, like Perception, or Disguise and whatnot.

Jobs, because there are many unanswered questions (or questions with contradicting/unclear answers) such as:
- Drones vs. Metahumans: Is there still a janitor if drones can do all the cleaning by themselves?
- Skillsofts in the workforce
- Salary: Corps could probably have actual slaves (and probably do in some cases/places) but they also need customers to sell their products to. How do they handle this?
- Jobs that have disappeared and new jobs that have appeared.

I've covered some of these topics (and a few more) in Style Over Substance (see link in sig) but I'd like to see other's take on the subject.

We can think over those together, if you wish, because my brain is now in numbers-crunching mode. That is, what I have in mind now is a system that lets you turn an idea like "my runner is a pizza delivery boy by day" or "my runner is secretly a high-ranking megacorp Arcana researcher after his dose of adrenalin" or "my runner spends the time between the runs deep-diving for the Japanese govt" into a series of in-game consequences, stats, figures, and plot hooks.
Actually, I am perfectly fine with having anyone capable of bearing my neurotic perfectionism join the work on those supplements (and it'd be totally mint if there'd be someone who could make those damn resulting pdfs for me, Cyborgs Unveiled is indication enough of how much I suck at it imo).

Actually, I found the cyborgs pdf very good
But an artist is his own worst critic, I guess ^^

I vote for jobs, too

That one used to be a houserule at our table for a while, so I'm all for it.

Frankly speaking, I must say I like the Quick Draw mechanic more - make a test, if you succeed, you do that as a part of your action (as a part of the attack, in this case). If not, spend the action. This way we get to have mechanical effects for Smart Pouch System Ammo Pouches (for Quick Reload), for example. Mechanical effects for items are good :3
But while for Quick Reload the test is pretty obvious (Agility+Firearm skill), I am not so sure about Quick Change Mode, Logic+Firearm skill? Agility+Computer?

Do you think it would? Minding the very low prices of personalized grips, unless the runners change guns regularly, it's not like they're exchanging a few BP for something all that valuable...
For pistols I was thinking more along the lines of +1DV for double tap (while still counting as a single SA attack), or fanning the hammer, allowing you to fire short (or long, hell) burst with a (modified) revolver.

Reducing the quick-draw threshold by 1 seems like a nice option for a martial art knowledge level.

All ideas I like and was already considering.

Having my doubts about this one, though - most runners shoot at the distances not giving them penalties, and the ones that do not use zoom....

I will think those over - I like the idea behind the Leadership rules in War!, but the bonuses there do seem a bit weak to me.

Do you mean that like "higher bonuses for melee gang-up" or like Deathwatch style team maneuvers a-la "one character shoots the target, and by herding it the desired way denies it dodge bonuses from the attacks of the rest of the team"?

Doesn't seem fairly balanced compared to the costs of raising skills...

Can you even quick draw bows? I wouldn't say they're pistol-sized.
Twin-arrow mode does stink of That Other Game a bit, but it is interesting. And we can take some actual archer arts, like Yabusame, to give appropriate bonuses.

I'd say that calls for reduced damage and making it the only attack action per turn, otherwise we'll get a lot of melee+firearms.

Those two I am not really comfortable with. Meddling with IP system and Karma system is rarely a good idea, because they're pretty much fragged up as it is. I don't think we're making those better this way.

Just look at those tables, or the pages with a lot of text. Those line breaks, those random margins, my god.
It came out better than I expected, though; I am very glad you liked it.

I'm still up for helping with Yakut where I can

I would probably be most interested in an overhaul of the vehicle system.

i voted for alt.war . .
because there's a good foundation around somewhere already which could probably be used to some extent.

otherwise:

Shadowrun: IIN SPAACEE! ò,Ó;,
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Don't Target:Wastelands and Hazard Pay cover those pretty excessively already?
As for alt.War, I'm feeling that my draft is getting out of hand as I try to fit everything I want to see in SR in it, so I'm trying to cannibalize pieces of it into smaller supplements.

With the iajutsu maneuver? Sure. Its more useful for quick-drawing the ARROWS, though, as it gets around the Ready Weapon limitation and lets you fire twice.


I don't think so. Melee + Firearm is the POINT - because melee is usually a lot weaker than guns. Usually its way better to fire twice instead of punch once. Or even twice.


Look at all the other style bonuses. for 5BP, you basically get a +1 skill dice or other unique advantage. Kung Fu's +1 all Dodge is pretty amazing. All the +1DV from martial arts is two equivalent strength, which is 20 points.

Yeah, space has been covered here and there . . it's all over the place, basically, no rhyme nor reason to it as far as i can tell.

@alt.war
ah, i see.

That shouldn't be the reason to have doubts. 5BP for a martial art advantage that's provided by an Improved Range Finder which is basically a 0.2BP weapon mod it also has comparable requirements as a personalized grip (10 Threshold and Kit requirement). The cost of it is pretty negligible outside of some fringe cases where the character uses weapons like disposable commlinks. Even so, that fringe case is probably better served by directing the 5BP to get it to something else. If you're going to spend 5BP on a martial art maneuver to reduce your range penalties by 1 then you might as well just take the Hawkeye PQ instead and get the better penalties (0/0/1/3 vs 0/0/2/5) as well as the perception bonus (which I have always interpreted as reducing the distance penalty on spot checks by 1). You lose out on cybereyes but it's not like replacing those with other gear is particularly difficult.

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Quick draw arrows so that you can free action ready instead of simple action. You get some nice action economy and get 3 shots every 2 action phases rather than 2 shots. You end up with Draw-Shoot-Draw | Shoot-Draw-Shoot rather than Draw-Shoot | Draw-Shoot.

Okay, I get the idea.

And why shouldn't it be weaker than guns? It is weaker than guns in RL and fiction, too.

This is not entirely true. You don't get a bonus point to Dodge skill, you get a bonus point to Full Dodge tests specifically. Or melee dodges, or what have you. Just as +1DV from martial arts is not equivalent to raising Str two points, since it doesn't affect the Str-linked skill tests.

I said jobs, because it adds to the game without adding made up, untested fan rules.

By extension, I'd like to see more fan-made PACKS. These are just collection and math notes anyways, but I'd like to see some realistic PACKS for basic commlinks (including basic software), SINs and licenses, and some security gear that people might not think of.

I'd also like to see more suggestions for Knowledge skills, complete with specializations. The bit in the rulebook is nice, but it's really only a starting point. I'd like to see Knowledge skills for a variety of "street" activities, as well as more ideas for interest skills, since these really do add to the game. Perhaps this could be included in the Jobs fan supplement (describe available jobs, how the day-to-day duties are affected by the 6th world, and what kinds of skills they would have).

Yes, please expand Martial Arts, especially those bows and maybe even crossbows.

Eh, how do you imagine expanding the quality without adding fan rules?

You don't. A great deal of material can be written about various professions in the 6th World without making up new qualities. Example NPC's, lists of common skills, and descriptions of how the 6th World impacts different professions are all possible without creating a single new rule.

The issue I have with fan-made rules is that they are fan-made. They almost always lack the level of playtesting and design foresight that should go into a roleplaying game. Like it or not, any new rule introduced into any game can and probably will upset it. Having a plethora of house rules makes the game hard to follow for players (new and old), since they no longer have access to the whole and complete rules of play. Most such rules also do not mesh well with existing or other fan-made rules, since they were not viewed as a part of the whole design. This is why we have legal discrepancies and problems, and this is why computer software breaks. Additions and changes that are made without studying their affects on other rules always leads to trouble.

The keys here is playtesting and minimal impact. Fan-made rules that have undergone peer review and have been playtested for balance are fine, as long as players know that they have a chance of using the rules if they leave that particular table. For example, a well tested list of additional qualities is fine if the community supports them to even the most minor degree. However, a poorly thought out and untested set of qualities would never be accepted outside of the group who wrote them. Even if not accepted by other groups, properly playtesting rules mitigates the chances of them completely wrecking the game by being to overpowered, underpowered, or just plain irrelevant.

By comparison, alternate rules that do not stay with a character and provide minimal lasting impact on the game are ideal. If, for example, a group came up with an alternate set of Matrix rules where all opposed tests were instead handled as threshold tests, these rules would speed up game play but would otherwise have minimal lasting impact on the game (whereas new qualities have a lasting impact that stay with that character). In order to be adopted, these minimal impact rule additions should be playtested, but the damage is minor if they aren't, since you can just stop using the rule in question. But regardless of playtesting, the point of minimal impact rules is that any change has a butterfly effect of changes that you may not see at first glance. Minimal impact rules have less impact and less chance of blowing up in everyone's face.

I worked in policy development and governance for 2 years. We learned very quickly that if we start changing corporate policies left, right, and centre, it just leads to problems. Instead, we tried to work within our existing policies, only adding or ammending them as a last resort. The only difference between this and rule development is the scope of the policies/rules.

I don't want to come off as a jerk, but I've seen too many games completely destroyed by adding poorly thought out rules. I don't want to see people turning away from Shadowrun because of the quality of fan-made material (which has in the past, in my opinion, been of a fairly high quality when compared to some other games).

While an expansion on Day Jobs, the effects of skillwires and drones on workplaces, and other similar subjects would be fantastic, I'm still voting for a security system supplement. I'd like some guidelines on what kind of security devices are in play where, like what sort of scanners would be pointed at you when you enter your local stuffer shack.

It's hard to argue that houserules add an additional level of complexity to playing the game, but I feel that in many cases they are absolutely necessary, and Shadowrun RAW has a lot of places that need houserule clutches. If you keep all your rules posted in one place, and point it out to your players regularly, it's a hundred times easier to help them keep up on them than inform a corporation of the policy changes, if only because your gaming group is a hundred times smaller than even a small corporation.

As for fan supplements - yeah, I like tinkering with the crunch side of the games I play. Of course, fan rules can't be tested as thoroughly as the game publishers are supposed to test them, but frankly, with the quality of material CGL is providing recently (think APCs with racing suspensions and unkillable flying tanks), I feel that the gap is becoming less and less significant. I try to pick self-containted subsystems to houserule them so as not to affect the rest of the rules framework, and naturally everything in fan supplements by its very nature is optional and subject to GM approval and modification. Besides, fluff changes can be even more drastic than crunch ones, because they affect the entirety of your perception of the gaming world, and some of the canon fluff is pretty non-obvious, so it's rather easy to contradict it, thus (arguably) considerably lowering the value of the fan work. An obvious example coming to mind would be the cargo zeppelins which canonically are primarily used to haul cargo in the Sixth World; when writing, say, a fan supplement on cargo haulers it'd be easy to go with actual logic and suggest more reasonable options instead.