So, I was just wondering on thoughts about this tradition, especially from a GMs stand point. and, what would you suggest as a secondary spec for him? face? investigator? what O.o.. and just for some flavor. what spells would see someone of this tradition having :3

It's a Charisma tradition, so face would be a natural secondary specialty. But keep in mind that for mages, getting another secondary specialty is often merely a matter of getting one or two new spells.

Theurgy is kind of middle of the road. Not nutcases who think they are performing miracles, but still people who take their beliefs seriously enough to integrate them into their magic. Also, your character won't have to deal with a religious hierarchy monitoring him, unless that character is also an actual member of the clergy.

A theurgist would consider the ethical ramifications of his spells, so would tend to lean towards non-lethal spells (and use lethal ones only when necessary), and avoid spells that violate people's privacy or free will (mind probe, the various mental manipulations). Healing spells would be likely. Summoning spirits is discouraged in this tradition, but the character may be a bit of a maverick in that regard - still, summoning will be treated very seriously, not least because the spirits will take angelic-looking forms.

From a GM's standpoint, this kind of character is likelier to be good for a group with some scruples - it would be harder to see a theurgist hanging around a purely mercenary group. As well as the usual moral dilemmas, there can be tension with other Christians - pure hermetics who are queasy with the character using religious trappings and summoning spirits that look like angels, and the nutcases who think they are performing miracles.

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I'd kind of like to see one of these guys, as an OK caster, but who also just happens to have an edge of 8, so people actually thinks he does miracles by doing "the impossible" on a kinda regular basis.


I could honestly see a Christian Mage using running wild's Calling rules to deal with spirits on a more regular basis than BAM SUMMONING. Angels are supposed to be pretty much god's messengers to the mortals, and aren't really things that mages "should"(from a moral/religious sense) be able to call up with a snap of their fingers. Actually going out of your way to put in the effort to contact and call out specific powerful entities and ask for their advice, wisdom and aid is a lot more fitting of a respectful, humble, perhaps god-fear christian than.....Angel Summoner the mister do it all.
Also dealing with spirits through calling uses social skills, which fits with a Charisma tradition. It also doesn't have any sort of built-in protection like summoning does, so a mage using it is encouraged to be ..... respectful.

Personally, even though the rules are kind of broken for banishing, I'd do the Catholic exorcist route and focus on it. I just think that would be fun to play, even if its highly impractical. Cinematically, it makes the massive banishing drain make sense.

In fact, I'm going to build that character just for fun now...maybe I'll find an RP-heavy game to slot him into

A Christian Theurge would have to do some serious mental gymnastics to go on 'runs, though. A lot of 'runs require breaking Commandments, which are central tenants of their faith. Also note that Christian Theurgy is based on Catholicism, which is only one version of Christianity (Lutheran, Baptist, Seventh Day Adventist, Church of Christ, to name a few). I honestly think that it would be a tradition only (or nearly only) for NPCs or only for games that take place in non-standard settings (DocWagon group, Law Enforcement group, ect.). For actual game uses I see Zoroastrian as being more likely.

I have and Idea how the get him into a group haha. kinda like, embrace your enemies in that one day we may defeat it kinda thing.

I like that idea.

You can't show Christ's love for people by keeping away from anyone who isn't just like you.

Yeah, 'cause powerful Christian leaders have always strictly observed Jesus' teachings and the basic structures of morality outlined in the Old Testament.

Besides, you think clergy aren't subject to pressures from their superiors which could lead them to break the tenets of their faith or rebel against the hierarchy in much the same way as a former corporate security guard could become disillusioned with their patron and hit the streets?

Final thought, Preacher Book had a similar issue until he decided that among the thieves and whores is where a man of the cloth is really needed. After all, that's what Jesus did.

"Christian Theurgy" is actually statted out already - with the full stamp of Officialdom on it. You can find it in Street Magic.

Spirit Bane: Shedim is such a trip-over-it obvious negative quality for this idea ...

The good Lord said nit to kill, he didn't say anything about shooting kneecaps.

Honestly though, there are a number of ways for a devout follower to run the shadows. My fall back is as a courier. The pacifism quality works well. Compulsive behavior could also work, as well as Signature (prayer, carrying symbols, fasts, and the like.) This also works well for other religions. Hooding is another good example. Bodyguard duties. Salvation extractions (extracting a willing target that was unwillingly extracted, as opposed to Salvage extractions) are nice.

It also changes depending on the level of theological detail you are using. Are they an inspirationalist or a literalist? What is their opinion on the less well known doctrines (transubstantiation)? Are they even Catholic (it's only a stones throw to Protestant), and if not, things get even more complicated.

Nitpick: the original language is not "thou shalt not kill", it is "thou shalt not murder". Killing which isn't murder (i.e., malicide; soldiers killing each other in war; executing criminals; self-defense) is perfectly A-OK with the Commandments.

A literalist Catholic is more likely to have problems with stealing, than with killing.

I got the impression from the writeup that it was open to most mainstream Christian denominations, not just Catholics - after all, it is said to combine Renaissance hermeticism with Christian qabbalism and Gnostic cosmology, which is hardly mainstream Catholicism. At the least, I imagine most Protestant or Orthodox denominations would have something similar enough that you could use the same stats for it.

Hehe, I thought you were going to nitpick his quote:

ZOE
Preacher, don't the Bible got some
pretty specific things to say about
killing?

BOOK
Quite specific. It is, however,
somewhat fuzzier on the subject of
kneecaps.

Yes, I am a Browncoat as well as a Brony. I am constructed of a solid geek core.

Wish my preacher was more like Sheppard Book, that's for sure

I was considering making the point of murder and killing not always being the same thing, but I'm on my phone until I can save for a new laptop charger. Also, I haven't watched Firefly this half-year yet, so the qoute was quite fuzzy in my memory.

Another good couple of options would be inspirational speaker (Leadership and Intimidation) and accountant (church treasurers can be scary good).

Either way, you're a Firefly fan.

(Browncoat Brohoof, yo!)

As for the religious traditions, as always, step carefully on this one. TORG was big about the issue, putting up all kinds of disclaimers. Shadowrun rolled religion back across the planet, which is sad for me because, when times are bad (And Vitas + the Awakening + Crash was a string of bad times!) people tend to gather up in places of worship and light candles against the darkness. Removing something so core to, well, all of human history always struck me as odd.

Then again, the Church of Elvis is a kind of a Thing, so.

Still, while it might not be as big in Cyberpunk culture, anytime you deal with teh downtrodden in fiction, you get religion, if only because if people don't have hope, they've got nothing. Taking THAT away's too dark, even for me.

Brohoof! /)

Here's a link to another thread on Christian Theurgy

It eventually becomes a trainwreck of rule arguing, but there's some good stuff in there about the flavor of the tradition.

I just can't fathom how a (non-hypocritical) Christian could possibly function as a Shadowrunner, and how a hypocritical Christian could function as a mage.

They would have to be picky in the jobs they take but if they have a fixer that knows his stuff it wouldn't be a problem.

"for great victories, sometimes sacrifices must me made, if my soul is to be one of those sacrifices, then I will gladly give it." is the motta my christian mage lives by.

but for the average one, you can always go with what WoW did. as long as they truly believe (no matter how obvious or blindly) then they retain their powers. even if it is sorta twisted. IE the scarlet crusade

Remember that your character's faith - and no one else's interpretation thereof - is what shapes his magic.

You can literally be a Pastafarian Warlock if you so desire. All you need is to meet the qualifications of: 1: Being Awakened with the Magician (or Mystic Adept) traits, and 2: Believing strongly enough that your faith is what empowers you that it shapes and forms your Tradition.

So, as far as your Christian Magician, he doesn't have to be what the established orthodoxy of Christian Theurgy likes. The Pope might consider him an apostate or even a heretic, and it won't impact his magic. So feel free to have fun with it - be a renegade who has no qualms about doing bad things to acquire the money and other resources necessary to do God's work. Feel free to summon and bind "Demons" as you see fit - if you need to browbeat devils into doing things that advance the good cause, so be it. Just remember that they're abhorrent things who will turn on you if they get an opportunity to do so, so always be ready to turn on them first.

Go fire-and-brimstone, Old Testament, bring the Wrath if you feel like it. Hell, get yourself some Edged Weapons skill and forge yourself a holy avenger weapon focus. You could have so much fun with this.

Look to terrorism for some of that. It's against the Koran for a Muslim to kill themselves, and you'd better believe that the Bible comes down on murder, but suicide bombers and IRA Catholics both set off the kaboom. You have your Crusades, the forced conversion of the Native Americans, the Inquisition, etc etc etc. Religion isn't evil, but evil people are all too happy to hide behind it as a shield, to motivate people to *do* evil. It's also a powerful force for good, as seen when relief organizations come in after a natural disaster, or a church opens doors for a family whose house burned down, homeless shelters, free clinic, the list goes on and on.

In short, being religious isn't an on/off switch for good/evil. It's a descriptor, like nationality, height, hair color, or favorite band, one of many, many aspects that make up a person. You might be amazed to see the knots that some people will tie themselves into, using religion (or political affiliation, or any number of other things) as a rationale.

Heck, there's a guy in the news yesterday that was using his religion (A really, really weird form of white supremicist Hinduism) to complain about a black guy bagging his groceries.

People are often weird.

He isnt Really evil... He wants to do good, but believes that to do great good you may need to sacrifice you "pureness"

I strongly disagree with your view on the spell choices and about spirits.

I play a priest that uses christian theurgy as his tradition. You can either play a pacifist christian mage or like in my case a vengefull priest that views the world as a place of Sin (sodom and gommorha) and "freeing people from their earthly shackles, so that they can be judged by god" is an acceptable way to fireball someone to death while shouting (Spellcasting Geas) "And thou shalt burn in eternal fire, thy soul shalt be cleansed by the will of christ and thou shalt be judged upon your actions in heaven and rot in hell for all eternity"

I would very much consder that to be a toxic/twisted version of theurgy. Doable, maybe even safely playable, but definitely not normal or healthy.

Sounds more Judaism than Christianity, but it's not like people have claimed Christianity while doing horrible things. Or any other religion for that matter.

I wouldn't call it Toxic though, many people believe that Christ wants them out there judging and damning 'heathens' and 'weirdos'. They are just incorrect, but not necessarily insane and twisted.

I think the "toxic version", if it can be called like that, would be extreme satanism. But it would be more like blood magic but still very twisted and definitely not normal

Never said leader. An actual believer would have problems doing most of the things that your average shadowrun team does daily.

The rest the points made are valid, however.

True, I didn't need to add the "leader" part in there though, do I? How many people were slaughtered by Crusaders who had been told they were already forgiven for killing or that their enemy were heretics who God wanted punished? People will believe the things that make their world make sense, even if those beliefs conflict with other beliefs.

For an interesting twist, why not borrow from John Carpenter and have a Vatican vampire-hunting-squad, or even freelance monster fighters as a running team? Insect spirits and Shedim surely seek to undo God's works.

Or you could borrow that idea from the guy who wrote the book, John Steakley.

Which, was unbelievably better than that movie, as much as I like Carpenter and Woods.

Well, Carpenter's last good film was They Live, its all been downhill for his movies since then. And James Woods is always great in any movie where someone kicks his butt real good. Never fails.

Just hadanother thought. They could specialize in extractions and work with Haven style safehouses. Mages could use manipulation, control and health spells. It would be pacifist friendly. And it would encourage an all female team/player group.

Your character could belong to a small 'sect' that follows basic rules set down (either during or in emulation of) the Crusades.

The line of thinking could easily be "Serving the greater good." which means bending beliefs or rules provided they serve some larger goal. Like stealing a truckload of real bread, vegetables and meat that was headded to a fancy political party dinner and dropping the cargo anonymously off at a soup kitchen.

Friar Tuck of the Robin Hood myth could be a great example of this. Skimming a little of the take for yourself (or accepting payment for such jobs) is probably fine provided you aren't greedy about it.

As someone pointed out earlier, it is personal belief that powers magic, so it doesn't matter how warped someone's views are, as long as they have a consistent worldview that they can use as a focus for channeling their magic. I was talking about a typical theurgist practitioner, though. Obviously, in any magical tradition, you have the option of playing a raving nutcase - as long as his skewed take on his tradition doesn't veer off from it completely, he should be okay from a magical standpoint.


On a tangent, one thing I wish they had played up a bit more would be people's ambivalence towards mixing magic and religion - not just the Abrahamic religions and to a lesser extent non-tantric Budhism. Everyone seems to simply shrug and accept magic as part of their religion, even though Shadowrun's fireball-chucking magic is very different from "real" magic, and even though the gift of magic has nothing to do with a person's inherent goodness or degree of enlightenment.

For instance, suppose you are a Wiccan, and your mentor, a wise person who embodies the best of your faith, can't so much as light a candle with magic, but this stupid poser bitch, who makes you cringe every time she opens her stupid mouth, suddenly has all of these superpowers. Some time after that, you awaken yourself. Now, would you embrace the Wiccan paradigm with your magic, or would you reason that this "magic" has nothing whatsoever to do with the faith you practice, and become a hermetic mage, even though your religion would still be Wiccan? I would like to see more stuff like that, instead of every mystical religion instantly embracing magic.

Hellgate's Templar or WH40K's Grey Knights.


Excellent.