There's also the projection/spirits issue. If a mage *really* wants to guard an area, there's really nothing stopping him from searching through (literally) every nook and cranny, thus rendering the whole 'Derp, I got a box, you can't find me Gilbert!' argument void.

Personally, I like that. Adds to the corporate culture. The only thing preventing you from being found right now is that it's currently not worth the opportunity costs to have an extraordinarily talented magician look for you.

OK, let's look at the box thing in a bit more detail. From the section on astral visibility, we know that a box blocks astral LoS. Ergo, it could be used to sneak past an astral observer (especially a spirit tasked with "looking out for metahumans" in an otherwise astrally-sterile environment). Conversely, we know that a mage can target someone in head-to-toe armour (even though they shouldn't actually be able to get LoS), so wearing a layer of cardboard over your armour ain't gonna get the same effect as hiding in a box. This seems to be the concensus of most everybody but you, hope this explains the thinking.

Not sure what you mean about a mage/spirit "searching through every nook and cranny". Are you talking about the Search power, or are you suggesting that at astral speed you could cover most facilities in a 2m grid every combat turn?

The former isn't as easy as you might think - apart from the fact it can take quite some time, a Search for metahumans will promptly turn every CorpSec guard, cleaner etc in the facility as well as intruders. Restrict your mental image to black balaclava clad stereotypical shaddow runners, and if the runners are not wearing black balaclavas (disguised as cleaners or CorpSec or wearing dinner jackets etc) then they will not be found.

The latter is wooly thinking to my mind. Just because astral speeds are lightning fast doesn't mean that you get a crystal clear image of everything that crosses your path. Think travelling in a high speed train, but much much faster. At top astral speeds you ain't a tourist, and everything you pass by is a blur. You may be able to travel super fast, but your basic information processing abilities have not changed. Think of the repercussions if this weren't the case - like quantum models of where electrons are in an atom, spirits and mages astrally patrolling a facility would basically be everywhere and nowhere at once. The PCs engage with CorpSec, or even just enter the facility and *boom*, within 1 combat round every astral asset has raised the alarm and is about to materialize and do battle with the PCs. Clearly this is not the way the game world works.

Because? There is no hard-and-fast rule for when that odd mechanic stops. If you were to wear a cardboard box over your head for +1 impact armor, why would you expect your head to disappear from astral?

As it stands, the RAI seems to be that things that would give you an armor rating are see-through on astral, though that might not be hard and fast. How would a riot shield show up? I don't know. How about a tank? An Elemental from Battletech?

Also, speak for yourself. Pretending like it's you and 'everyone else' against your opponent was an argument tactic back in middle school. Intelligent people grew out of that.




Your strawman is weak. I'm suggesting that given reasonable and rational security chokepoints, It'd be easy for a projecting mage or spirit to cover every inch of a reasonable amount of space. You'd never be able to sneak *up* the Space Needle, for instance.


As your last paragraph effectively ignores all printed information for astral movement, I'll pass on responding to it.

Don't think that a cardboard box over your head would give you +1 impact armour, but yes, if you wore one your head would be hidden on the astral. Fat lot of good it would do you as your body would be perfectly visible and a viable target.
Wearing a riot shield, I reckon your ankles, weapon arm and head would still be visible, so no it would not offer protection against astral LoS. A tank would be visible as a tank, but without entering it to investigate you would have no idea how many people (if any) are inside.


Did a quick check, you and shinyjam are in the minority that believe a metahuman aura would show through a cardboard box. Against are Shadowdragon (Post#8 ), Spellbinder (Post#12), Bearclaw (#16), TJ (#27), Warlordtheft (#40) and the OP Lord Ben (#46) as well as myself. 5/6 of other respondants agree with me over you that a cardboard box would block astral LoS to the metahuman's aura inside it. Doesn't mean we are right, just that your opinion is in the minority.


Because facilities are designed for use by wage slaves during the day, I am not sure how many obvious "choke points" your astral security would have available to cover, but I will give you that there could be a few obvious places to focus your astral patrol. If each astral patroller has to flit between, say 6 places, there will still be a time they are not there where the infiltrator could sneak by (I am assuming that speeding up and slowing down would be free actions, as would a quick check of each area).
Of course, such an astral security set-up would be moot if (for instance) the infiltrators avoided the choke points entirely (levitating to a 2nd floor window, blowing through a wall, sneaking through the air conditioning ducts etc).
Where did my last paragraph ignore printed info on astral movement? It would be good to know.

Would like to clarify that I believe aura would seep out of the gap of a box assuming the force is strong enough, if it's a tightly sealed box then it won't have any aura to 'leak' out. Again, my logic is that of 'lightbulb' and also other senses like 'smell' that can smell the 'odor' of the aura leaking out of the unsealed box.

Seriously guys, how about we stop using example about Sight and try debate with other senses like smell and hearing.

Sorry shinyjam, thanks for clarifying.

Doesn't the book describe astral perception as a Sixth sense? That means it really isn't any of the other 5, but something "other", somehow. It might be just as valid to think of it working like ultrasound, radar, or false color thermography, instead. I would also throw in a little mysticism appropriate to your tradition on top as well. If you clear your mind of a strictly visual paradigm (which is very hard to do for most of us!), I think the rules work better. As a GM, it is harder to get that across, especially to new players. We gamers tend to be VERY visual people!

Lord Ben: In post #6 of this thread, you expressed your concern that astrally perceiving magicians get a free ride on detecting people. You quoted a section of the rules, but I think you've overlooked something. The auras of living things are not astral forms!

In the "Auras and Astral Forms" part of the rulebook, auras are described as "vibrant and colorful", while astral forms are "more colorful and brighter than auras." So there are at least three levels: mundane, alive, and astrally active. According to the rules, an Assensing test is required when even an astral form is trying to hide, and astral forms stand out even more than the auras of living things. So it stands to reason that noticing a living aura that is trying to hide would also require an Assensing test, possibly one with a higher threshold. The question is, under what circumstances are auras or astral forms "immediately obvious", and therefore don't require an Assensing test. What's a good base threshold and what modifiers apply?

As for it being too easy, consider this. Being a magician or an astrally perceptive mystic adept is not free. Having a decent intuition isn't free, and neither is getting the assensing skill. I would not neglect getting the perception skill; assensing would be in addition to perception, because they do two different things. Information gained while astrally projecting is rather limited (although you can get different kinds of information with a good dice roll). Astrally projecting also makes the awakened character vulnerable to a number of additional threats, and the entire party risks detection as a result.

On the other side, look at all the other cheap ways a person can be detected in the mundane world. If a person walks somewhere they should not be, and a person is there at the right time and place to spot them, they are also seen. If a character uses the cover of darkness, they are spotted by NPCs with low-light or thermographic vision. If there is a camera or a motion/vibration sensor, they can also be detected.

On auras, even if we say that they are "bright", it could be that they are brightly colored as opposed to grey shadows, but bright does not have to mean luminous or glowing brightly, but rather brightly colored, especially as compared to shadowy reflections. Easy to spot, but not necessarily radiant. I think they show through armor not because they radiate strongly, but because the armor is form-fitting. A box is not form fitting, so the aura could fit entirely within it. The idea that an aura must extend beyond the flesh is because people argue that if someone is completely covered, you don't have line of sight to the body, and therefore can't cast direct spells on the person. All one needs to do then to be immune to direct spells is be a ninja wearing sunglasses. Of course that's crazy.