Ah yes. Subsonic. I would throw that as an optional use item, that gives you another -2 for -16 total to hear it but the +2 AP and -20% range kind of goes against the major reasons for using a sniper rifle in the first place (high base AP and long ranges).

-8, if the silencer is integral (IOW, if you get it as a Modification, not an external Accessory).


-2 more, for using Subsonic ammunition (normally -1, yes ... but when fired from a weapon with a silencer or suppressor, it's -2).

So, yes Virginia, the total is easily going to hit -18. Or as I like to put it, "if you can hear the gun go off, with your ear pressed against the barrel? The gun is broken."

The modification is -6. The accessory is -4.

A Silenced (spirit power), Sound Barriered and Concealed target. Soft max Magic of 5, and that's -15.

Sniper with Agility 5, Stealth Group 4. Average 3 hits. Combine with above sniper rifle. What is the dice pool necessary to spot such a target?

This. You DO want to notice bad guys sneaking around under bad conditions (who can easily have 5+ hits if they are worth their money).

I think it depends on whether they're trying to spot or hear the sniper. Concealment power plus visibility mods (lighting, camo, etc) would determine the penalty to spot the sniper with a threshold equal to his infiltration hits, where locating the sniper by sound would be the Silenced, Sound-Barrier, and so on adding up to the aural penalties, with a threshold of [2] for "silenced gunfire".

I think my point is that after dice pool penalties, hitting even a threshold of 2-3 is not easy.

Plus a modifier for distance, and ... wait for it ... knowing which direction to even start looking in. That's why snipers like silent guns: the shot doesn't let you know WHERE the sniper is, even a general direction, to even begin looking for him.

I mean, that sniper could be a kilometer away - huddled behind partial cover at the top of a fifteen story office block nine blocks up the street, wearing a chameleon suit (with suitable treating onhis gun, too) with a godawful number of hits on his Infiltration (if moving) or Disguise (if stationary) skill tests. At that point, you mgiht as well be trying to count fleas on a dog's back at ninety paces. In the dark. During a thunderstorm. While facing the wrong way.

I am surprised that no one added in the Oracle Reality Amp from Unwired.
14R availability and 500 is cheap for another +2

Yeah, but those are somewhat addictive. There's other drugs which present even further dice pool modifiers, but, well, one day you may screw up that addiction test...
But yes, this is another good way to upgrade an otherwise decent pool.
Looks like my adept build that I am now moving to a surveillance role has still to accumulate a few dice. Compared to this thread, 10 dice don't seem to be much, though I thought I was well outfitted with that

Welcome to dumpshock. Basically, *no* number of dice will ever be called "much" here

Hearing a silenced gunshot isn't impossible, it's a threshold [2]. Just going by the modifiers in the book (the previous discussion covers this here, starting on around page 3 or 4) it's a little easier to locate a sniper by sound than it is by sight-- assuming the sniper isn't terrible at hiding. Aural tests have slightly lower penalties versus a set threshold of [2], visual tests tend to have more penalties and the threshold is determined by the sniper's infiltration test.

And yet noticing a sound does not give you its location. At least not for the first time that you notice it, and especially not if it is outside of your immediate vicinity. Given a Sniper can hit you from over a Kilometer away in the appropriate circumstances, I am even less inclined to give you a location for something at that distance without a concerted effort to locate it beyond just "hearing" the first shot.

Great. Threshold 2. Fine.

Now remember that to hear the first shot, your Perception pool is at ...

• -6 for Integral Silencer
• -1 for Electronic Firing
• -2 for Subsonic ammunition (from a suppressed/silenced weapon)
• -2 for Distracted
• -3 for Distant sound
• -2 for interfering sounds (unless you're somewhere absolutely silent)

... -16. Sure, sure, you only need 6 dice, by the odds, to mee that threshold 2. But to have those six dice, you pool had to start at twenty two dice. Which is, and quite frankly should be, astonishingly rare. Most people with an 8-12 pool, even most specialists with a 14-18 pool, are going to have a functionally zero chance of hearing the shot go off (at an 18 pool, and/or spending Edge to add 4+ dice, there's a slim chance ... but it still falls into what I say is "for all practical intents and purposes", functionally impossible).

Also, let's remember that the problem is not merely to hear that a silenced shot HAS been made, but, to actually localise it. And the threshold for that test should be much higher than just 2 - even for UNsilenced single shots, that's often an impossible task, IRL. To the point they have specialised equipment, that gives a bearing on shots it hears being fired.


Yeah, slightly lower .... if you ignore all the equipment-based ones. Which any "you won't even know I was there (except for the corpse)" sneaky-snipers will be using.

In real life, a sniper can shoot at you without hitting you and you will likely be unaware that he's doing it, unless the bullet passes close enough you hear it as it passes or you see evidence of being shot at.

Exactly. And if he DOESN'T miss, but you somehow DO survive (or he shot the guy next to you) ... there's going to be a whole lot of other things to think about, rather than "where is the shooter".

Yes, even if you're an especially paranoid shadowrunner.

Ain't that the truth. When sniper rounds wizzed by my head (sucks being the radio operator), or hit those next to me (had 3 people in my platoon shot in the war) the ONLY thing I was thinking about was finding cover.

Interestingly enough, heavier rounds make a different noise in passing than do light rounds.

Yeah. I figure, second or third shot - the ones that come when you've already dove for cover - are the ones where you'll start trying to narrow down "where is the bastard", if only so you can make sure the cover you found is BETWEEN you and the shooter.

(As an aside: I owe you a /salute for your service, Tymaeus. Should we ever meet face to face, I'll owe you a drink as well. ^_^ )

I would think "Where is the shooter?" from a general direction question is a very relevant question. How else are you going to seek proper cover?

+1 man. Look me up if you're ever in bunbury.

And really, from my understanding, snipers aren't going to give you more than 2-3 shots from a single location unless they're assured of being able to eliminate every target quickly.

In SR, it would be even worse - 3 init passes mean two shots, two kills, and then an IP of movement before some people even get to respond.

You seek cover that is cover in as many directions around you as possible, that's how. Also, even if you localise it to a 120-degree arc (easily enough to pick which side of a wall or vehicle to jump behind), that's still going to give you a LOT of ground to cover with a visual inspection. Especially at 800+ meters range.

I thought this would be right place to post this guy:
Mister Perceptive
Stats:
Intuition 7
Magic 6
Skills:
Perception 6
Qualities:
Adept 5
Mentor spirit owl +2 to perception tests 5
Perceptive 2 +2 to perception tests 10
Metagenetic Improvement Intuition
Adept powers:
Enhanced perception 6 +6 to all perception tests
Improved physical ability perception 3
Ware:
Reception Enhancer 3 +3 to all perception tests
Qualia +1 to intuition linked skill tests
Synch +1 to all perception test
Raitng 3 Limbic nanites +3 to all intuition linked skill test
Attention Coprocessor 3 +3 to physical perception tests
Vision Enhancement 3 +3 to visual perception tests
Audio Enhancement 3 +3 to aural perception test
Tactile Sensitivity +2 to all touch-based perception tests
Olfactory Booster 6 +6 to all smell-based perception tests
Taste Booster 6 +6 to all taste-based perception tests
Other:
Betel +1 to perception
Oracle reality amplifier +2 to physical perception tests

Vision:
7+6+2+2+6+3+3+1+1+3+3+3+1+2= 47
Hearing:
7+6+2+2+6+3+3+1+1+3+3+3+1+2= 47
Touch:
7+6+2+2+6+3+3+1+1+3+3+2+1+2= 46
Smell:
7+6+2+2+6+3+3+1+1+3+3+6+1+2= 50
Taste:
7+6+2+2+6+3+3+1+1+3+3+6+1+2= 50

If i remember correctly, thats a chargen legal build, but not the most playable character

I could see that... *runs away before anyone can hit me for the awful pun*

It's not legal. Your magic score is too high by 2 points. Now, whether that impacts anything else I don't know. 4 magic would give you enough points to take both listed powers so is there something else that requires 6 magic?

Reception Enhancer III - 60,000 (0.6)
Qualia - 40,000 (0.4)
Synch - 45,000 (0.3)
Tactile Sensitivity (0.2)
Bio Essence Cost : 1.5

Attention Coprocessor - 9,000 (0.3)
Vision Enhancement III - 4,500 (0.2) [If Cybereye]
Audio Enhancement III - 4,500 (0.2) [If Cyberear]
Olfactory Booster VI - 6,000 (0.2)
Taste Booster VI - 9,000 (0.2)
Cyber Essence Cost : 1.1 (0.55)

Total Essence Cost : 2.05

40+ dice is just silly, and can be nullified by ONE silly spell with the silliest of descriptions.

F6 Sound Barrier [Single Sense]
Range: Touch
Very Limited Target: Self
Restricted Effect: Gunshots
Drain: F/2-1

So, a 40D6+ PERCEPTIONIST must resist a F6 spell centered on the sniper or gets no test and the shot is COMPLETELY silent. Add a good sustaining foci as well. 40D6 will do squat unless his Intuition is very high and he resists the spell.

Alternatively overcast it at F12 with a Fetish restriction for that +2D6 drain.

Magic limits the max level of adept power so enchanted perception would be limited to 4 costing the build 2 dice(doesn't matter much considering how many dice those wares provide).
Magic 6 version might be doable in karmagen, just add 2 initiations and raise the magic to 8 before reduction.

That silly little spell only nullifies aural perception.

Dammit, ment to edit this into the last one.
we so need an ability to delete our own post(even one that only works for few minutes after posting would be god send)

Yes. Perfectly useful.

The problem I wanted to lift up is that regardless of dicepool there are always ways to nullify it.

40D6 dicepool for everything will only tell them that they hear or see things unless they know what/when/where a certain target/object is and if the needed sense is blocked.

If someone told me while i stand in a busy street in downtown new york that a sniper is aiming at me I will not be able to find him regardless of perception pool.

-He can be two blocks away
-While invisible
-While using a remote operated gun
-Covered in Ruthenium
-Blocked by a spell that completely silences the gun

Etc...

Also, 40+ dice in improved nose efficiency will not be fun to have in a sewer...

Most appreciated... Looking Forward to it.

MOst appreciated... Missed my Chance to go to Australia, but be assurred I will let you know if I ever get there.

Also, I had the idea that Oracle has an availability somewhere in the range of 16 to 24.

14R now that i checked, but really it cost 500 , so you can get it easily right after chargen(as resricted gear is total waste to get for it)

Olfactory and Taste Boosters have an availability of Rating * 4 so only R3 is legal at chargen.