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StealthSigma
I'm slightly curious as to what people commonly have for their perception pools. I would also like it if your break down where your score's bonuses are coming from.
FuelDrop
I hate failing perception checks... mainly because my characters somehow always seem to end up on point. my standard breakdown for a street sam is something like this:
3 rank.
2 specialization
3-4 intuition
3 tech aids (visual enhancer ect)
0-3 attention co-processor/perception enhancer (My current character is afraid of cyberware so this bonus is out of the question)

which means that I'm usually swinging about 12 dice for my checks, and calling that healthy for a non-recon-expert.
Makki
10 is my bare minimum, but easy to reach as demonstrated be FuelDrop
My adept has 20 something, but adepts are different...
Elfenlied
4 rank
2 spec
3 contacts/earbuds with Vision/Audio Enhancement 3
Int 4-5
3-4 Attention Coprocessor/Enhanced Perception
1 Betel

This is the baseline for most of my characters.
StealthSigma
QUOTE (Makki @ Sep 27 2012, 08:32 AM) *
10 is my bare minimum, but easy to reach as demonstrated be FuelDrop
My adept has 20 something, but adepts are different...


What does your adept do to pull 20 dice and is it perception or a type of perception (visual/auditory). I expect that most people have a visual perception pool that is +5 the base pool and auditory that is +3.
Lantzer
My characters average 6-9 dice, depending on concept and history. I once made a character who was an Executive Personal Assistant/Accountant/Lawyer who had 32 dice, plus a passel of extra senses, and could record it all. That character was on the run from his old company due to a faulty data filter.
Makki
QUOTE (StealthSigma @ Sep 27 2012, 02:38 PM) *
What does your adept do to pull 20 dice and is it perception or a type of perception (visual/auditory). I expect that most people have a visual perception pool that is +5 the base pool and auditory that is +3.


Adepts can take the Enhanced Perception power which is a bargain at .25/level
StealthSigma
QUOTE (Makki @ Sep 27 2012, 08:52 AM) *
Adepts can take the Enhanced Perception power which is a bargain at .25/level


Would you blow 1.5 on +6 perception if you had 6 intuition?
Makki
QUOTE (StealthSigma @ Sep 27 2012, 02:55 PM) *
Would you blow 1.5 on +6 perception if you had 6 intuition?

as our team's scout. Yes.
Seriously Mike
I have a chart for that:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key...Zqb3JGeUE#gid=7
The first four are my players' team (well, without the new guy), the rest are the prime runners (400BPs each): Judgment is a hitter, Rage's a combat paranormalist, Insight's a grifter/thief, Harbinger is the hacker and mastermind, and Death is the wheelman.
_Pax._
QUOTE (StealthSigma @ Sep 27 2012, 08:55 AM) *
Would you blow 1.5 on +6 perception if you had 6 intuition?

If the character concept called for it? Yes, yes I would.

Heck, my Hacker-Adept just blew 1.0 PP on 4 levels of Enhanced Perception after his first Initiation. (The power says ALL prception checks, so it should work in the Matrix as well ... I hope! ^_^ )

So ... Intuition 6 (attribute), Enhanced Perception 6 (power), Perception 6 (skill), Perceptive 2 (quality), there's twenty dice.

Attention Coprocessor 3 (cyber, 0.3E) and Reception Enhancer 3 (bio, 0.6E) for six more, for 26.

Qualia (transgenics, 0.4E) and Dynomitan (transgenics, 0.2E) are each another +1, for 28.

There's nothing explicitly stated in the rules precluding you from taking Improved Non-Compat Ability/Perception for +3 more, giving us 31.

Aptitude/Perception (quality) would allow another +1 from skill, for 32.

Exceptional Attribute/Intuition (uality) would allow another +1 from attribute, and open up Enhanced Perception for another +1 as well. Same for each of Genetic Optimisation (genetics, 0.2E) and Metagenetic Enhancement (quality). All three together brings us to 38 dice.

...

Then there's situation-specific stuff, like vision enhancement and so on.

...

Anyone know of anything I've missed?

bannockburn
My adept: 7 Int, 3 Skill, usually +3 from contact lenses to visual and +3 from earbuds to audio => 13
My face: 5 Int, 4 Skill, +3 Reception Enhancer (doesn't use cyberware), same +3 / +3 => 15, (situational bonus: Tactile Sensitivity +2)
My courier: 4 Int, 5 Skill, +3 / +3 => 12
Makki
QUOTE (_Pax._ @ Sep 27 2012, 06:27 PM) *
Anyone know of anything I've missed?

of course, you did biggrin.gif

Betel +1
Sideways +1
_Pax._
/facepalm

Stupid fallible memory ... ;D
StealthSigma
QUOTE (_Pax._ @ Sep 27 2012, 12:27 PM) *
Anyone know of anything I've missed?


Synch +1
Percetive Positive Quality - 5BP for +1, 10BP for +2

Just for the record, my mundane sniper has a 22 visual perception check with a base perception of 17.
_Pax._
QUOTE (StealthSigma @ Sep 27 2012, 12:14 PM) *
Synch +1
Percetive Positive Quality - 5BP for +1, 10BP for +2

Just for the record, my mundane sniper has a 22 visual perception check with a base perception of 17.

The quality I already listed, but I did miss Synch. smile.gif

So with Synch, and the two that Makki mentioned, we're up to a pool of 43 (46 when Observing in Detail).
StealthSigma
QUOTE (_Pax._ @ Sep 27 2012, 02:29 PM) *
The quality I already listed, but I did miss Synch. smile.gif

So with Synch, and the two that Makki mentioned, we're up to a pool of 43 (46 when Observing in Detail).


Woops. I mistook Aptitude/Perception as Perceptive and missed that you included it higher up.
Xenefungus
Also, Owl Mentor Spirit.
Dolanar
Wouldn't the Improved Perception power be limited like the Improved ability power in only being able to go up to 1.5x your current skill?
_Pax._
QUOTE (Dolanar @ Sep 27 2012, 09:19 PM) *
Wouldn't the Improved Perception power be limited like the Improved ability power in only being able to go up to 1.5x your current skill?

No.

For one thing, it's not a bonus to the skill Perception directly (it works on ALL kinds of perception - Matrix and Astral included).

For another, it specifically states that it is limited by the character's Intuition score.
LurkerOutThere
Something saying it applies to all tests does indeed mean it applies to all tests.

That's one of the things I personally don't get and ascribe to Magicrun 'Warehate™ is why attention coprocessor is limited to meatworld checks when there are bioware, adept powers, and I think nanites that benefit across the board.
_Pax._
I can grok that. I even agree, Lurker. AtCoP should indeed work on Matrix as well as Meat.
Critias
For most of my characters, I'm content with around a dozen dice. Folks who are supposed to be more perceptive, well, I expect more. Solid mid-teens tends to certainly be good enough for most games, in my experience.
Krishach
mine seems to match everyone elses. 12-15 dice for my characters. Hackers prioritize matrix perception obviously.

Hell, my current Mystic Adept has 12 dice, and no perception skill whatsoever.

Also, our team seems to always have 1 perception stacked specialist, usually with 15-18+, because that averages 5-6 hits for max detail.
Sid Nitzerglobin
My street sam:
2 rank + 5 INT + 3 audio/visual enhancement in earbuds/contacts for 10 Hearing/Visual

My dryad con-girl adept:
2 rank + 4 INT + 2 Visual specialization + 3 audio/visual enhancement in earbuds/contacts for 11 Visual and 9 Hearing

I guess they're kind of oblivious in comparison but they're both pretty young still...
Makki
the one thing that is special about perception, is that I never thought about NOT taking it at a starting character. I'd rather drop Infiltration or anything else. It's my first click in chummer's Skills section.
Krishach
I've found that if my dicepool is already sitting at 12 for a perception check, I won't spend points to make it higher if I have higher priorities for the character type. The mystic adept fit that.

Besides, the 12 Intuition was worth it leaving Perception off the character sheet for starters ;P
Xenefungus
QUOTE (Makki @ Sep 28 2012, 07:37 AM) *
the one thing that is special about perception, is that I never thought about NOT taking it at a starting character. I'd rather drop Infiltration or anything else. It's my first click in chummer's Skills section.


This is indeed true, I don't have any character without the perception skill (go ahead, mention your AI-chars already, folks wink.gif) which seems kind of odd. Because of how often it comes into play, it seems that Perception should be more of a derived attribute (Int+Log?) just like Initiative rather than a skill. Also, it's kind of hard to imagine how people "train" this to become "professionals" at, well, looking.

Same goes for the ability to evade attacks. Each character (that is existant in meat-space, again) possesses either the Dodge or the Gymnastics and a melee skill.


I think it's a indication of bad design if there are skills that just everyone NEEDS to take.
Krishach
Perception training? You better believe it. Military, covert ops, police force, civilians under some circumstances. How to continually scan to see if something is off, to memorizing details quickly and covertly, efficient use of peripheral vision...

Most martial arts styles have something akin to this as well. Perception absolutely is a learnable skill.
StealthSigma
QUOTE (LurkerOutThere @ Sep 27 2012, 10:08 PM) *
That's one of the things I personally don't get and ascribe to Magicrun 'Warehate™ is why attention coprocessor is limited to meatworld checks when there are bioware, adept powers, and I think nanites that benefit across the board.


Because it's dirt cheap.

Directly compare Reception Enhancers 20,000/rating, 0.2/rating essence against Attention Coprocessor 3,000/rating, 0.3 essence (which is probably a typo in augmentation).

--

QUOTE (Xenefungus @ Sep 28 2012, 04:18 AM) *
This is indeed true, I don't have any character without the perception skill (go ahead, mention your AI-chars already, folks wink.gif) which seems kind of odd. Because of how often it comes into play, it seems that Perception should be more of a derived attribute (Int+Log?) just like Initiative rather than a skill. Also, it's kind of hard to imagine how people "train" this to become "professionals" at, well, looking.


You can train your perception. Generally this requires rewiring how you process the information you're perceiving.

QUOTE (Xenefungus @ Sep 28 2012, 04:18 AM) *
I think it's a indication of bad design if there are skills that just everyone NEEDS to take.


There's a term for this. Tax. It's not necessarily a design flaw. A lot of time a tax may come about because something is just that good and no one should ditch it. Other times it may come about because you have a finite quantity of X and requiring you to use 1 leaving you X-1. At X-1 you're competent and comparable but at X you're too powerful. This is corrective behavior.
Cabral
QUOTE (StealthSigma @ Sep 28 2012, 06:43 AM) *
Directly compare Reception Enhancers 20,000/rating, 0.2/rating essence against Attention Coprocessor 3,000/rating, 0.3 essence (which is probably a typo in augmentation).

That's in line with the audio and vision enhancement mods, so I don't think so.

I had thought that the attenuation coprocesor and the audio and vision enhancements were mutually exclusive, but I don't see anything stating such.

Also, since the Reception Enhancers add modifiers to Perception tests, I'd be inclined to say matrix and astral tests are not affected. That makes the ware really lame, though. Note that the coprocessor specifically blocks matrix and astral perception, the reception enhancers and Hawkeye quality don't specify, and the Perceptive quality specifically includes astral and matrix. I don't really see a consistent standard.
Thanee
Typically...

Intuition of 3-5
Perception Skill of 2-4 (sometimes specialized in visual, which is quite obviously the most useful specialization)
Attention Coprocessor 3 (if cybered)
Visual/Audio Enhancement 3

So, about 13 for cybered characters and about 10 for non-cybered (some Adepts have more, due to Enhanced Perception, of course).

Bye
Thanee
Dolanar
Even your local Target or Best Buy have a minor video that teaches people to look for suspicious activity & such.
toturi
I would like to point out that Perception is one of those dice pools that is fairly easy to encounter negative dice modifiers of and those negative modifiers can be quite large.
VykosDarkSoul
QUOTE (_Pax._ @ Sep 27 2012, 08:02 PM) *
For another, it specifically states that it is limited by the character's Intuition score.


just a curiosity, and mabye my brain is fried, but

does this trump the whole not being able to take more points in something than your magic score?
Dolanar
Pretty sure it would still be capped by Magic Score
bannockburn
That's a really good question, VykosDarkSoul.

I think both conditions must be satisfied, so no Mag 5, Int 6 and 6 ranks of this power.
On the other hand, I do not have anything to back this up ^^
Thanee
Well, it doesn't say it isn't limited by Magic.

OTOH, for most characters, this is probably a non-issue, anyways.

Bye
Thanee
Midas
Hmmm, seeing some pretty wild dicepools here. Hello Dumpshock.

I was gonna tell ya about my PI character with his soft-capped INT 5, Perception 6, Perceptive 2 and the relevant +3's in his cybereyes and ears. No specialities or Attention Coprocessors yet (he has those to look forward to getting hold of those in game), but there I was thinking he rocked at 16 dice for visual and audial perception ...

Then again, he is mundane, so none of this adept munchkinery (grumble, grumble) ...

StealthSigma
QUOTE (Midas @ Sep 28 2012, 11:24 AM) *
Hmmm, seeing some pretty wild dicepools here. Hello Dumpshock.

I was gonna tell ya about my PI character with his soft-capped INT 5, Perception 6, Perceptive 2 and the relevant +3's in his cybereyes and ears. No specialities or Attention Coprocessors yet (he has those to look forward to getting hold of those in game), but there I was thinking he rocked at 16 dice for visual and audial perception ...

Then again, he is mundane, so none of this adept munchkinery (grumble, grumble) ...


My sniper is mundane with 22 visual and 20 hearing....

The major differences between you and I is that I have +3 from 'ware, +1 from synchm +1 from qualia, +1 from Intuition (6 Int), but only 4 perception (-2).
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Xenefungus @ Sep 28 2012, 01:18 AM) *
This is indeed true, I don't have any character without the perception skill (go ahead, mention your AI-chars already, folks wink.gif) which seems kind of odd. Because of how often it comes into play, it seems that Perception should be more of a derived attribute (Int+Log?) just like Initiative rather than a skill. Also, it's kind of hard to imagine how people "train" this to become "professionals" at, well, looking.

Same goes for the ability to evade attacks. Each character (that is existant in meat-space, again) possesses either the Dodge or the Gymnastics and a melee skill.


I think it's a indication of bad design if there are skills that just everyone NEEDS to take.


You do not need to take Perception, you are just at a -1 penalty to Intuition if you do not. I have seen plenty of characters rocking 8-10 dice with absolutely no Perception skill at all. smile.gif
Umidori
I wonder... at what point do you start hitting diminishing returns?

Perception is a flat threshold check based on the size or obviousness of the object or event to be perceived. The highest threshold is 4 hits, literally for things like spotting a needle in a haystack.

So let's assume high level negative modifiers. Not actively looking/distracted is -2. Object/sound is not in immediate area is another -2. Interfereing sight/sound/odour is another -2. So in this case, let's say that you're in a noisy nightclub and you're rolling to see if you hear unexpected gunshots occuring in a back room. The threshold should be 3 for the gunshots being "obscured/small/muffled", and you're losing 6 dice from the modifiers. Assuming average number of hits, you'll hear the gunshots if you have 15 dice.

Of course it can go higher. Wound modifiers, visibility modifiers for visual perception, being in VR, etc. So let's take StealthSigma's mundane sniper with 20 dice for hearing tests. He could be sitting in that noisy club, jacked into VR, and he'd STILL most likely hear those gunshots. Which is kind of insane, really.

Normally you don't need that many dice, and the average person or even runner isn't realistically going to be THAT perceptive, even if it is useful from a metagame standpoint. But what would be more in line, then? Well, let's start with a baseline reading. At full health, with good visibility, and actively looking for a normal size object in your immediate vicinity that isn't being masked by something else, you can get by with a base pool of only 3 dice. For every level of difficulty above this that you want to be able to overcome, add 3 more dice to your base pool. So if your visibility is poor and you're badly wounded, you'd need 9 dice to (on average) find and read a street sign at the corner and figure out where you are. If instead you're looking for briefcase under a desk in a trashed corporate office, likewise in the dark and bleeding, you'll need 12 dice base. Etc.

~Umi
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Thanee @ Sep 28 2012, 06:42 AM) *
Typically...

Intuition of 3-5
Perception Skill of 2-4 (sometimes specialized in visual, which is quite obviously the most useful specialization)
Attention Coprocessor 3 (if cybered)
Visual/Audio Enhancement 3

So, about 13 for cybered characters and about 10 for non-cybered (some Adepts have more, due to Enhanced Perception, of course).

Bye
Thanee


I prefer the specialty of "Details"
StealthSigma
QUOTE (Umidori @ Sep 28 2012, 12:19 PM) *
I wonder... at what point do you start hitting diminishing returns?

Perception is a flat threshold check based on the size or obviousness of the object or event to be perceived. The highest threshold is 4 hits, literally for things like spotting a needle in a haystack.


Except when it's an opposed check, which is probably the major reason people pump it.
Cabral
QUOTE (Umidori @ Sep 28 2012, 11:19 AM) *
Of course it can go higher. Wound modifiers, visibility modifiers for visual perception, being in VR, etc. So let's take StealthSigma's mundane sniper with 20 dice for hearing tests. He could be sitting in that noisy club, jacked into VR, and he'd STILL most likely hear those gunshots. Which is kind of insane, really.

Well, I would take a tip from the assensing table. Making the threshold may mean that the character heard something out the ordinary, but some net hits are required to recognize the sound as a silenced gunshot in back room. Maybe with 5 or 6, the character can recognize the caliber (heavy, light pistol, etc.).
_Pax._
QUOTE (VykosDarkSoul @ Sep 28 2012, 10:25 AM) *
just a curiosity, and mabye my brain is fried, but

does this trump the whole not being able to take more points in something than your magic score?

Not IMO, at least.
Mercer
QUOTE (toturi @ Sep 28 2012, 03:23 PM) *
I would like to point out that Perception is one of those dice pools that is fairly easy to encounter negative dice modifiers of and those negative modifiers can be quite large.


Yeah, I remember a topic a few years ago about detecting a sniper firing a silenced weapon, and the modifiers could get as bad as -14. That said, most of my characters start with Perception pools in the 13-16 range, with phys ads trending a few points higher than my sams.
Dolanar
yeah, Sniper Fire is insane hard to hear, between internal silencing & whatnot.
StealthSigma
QUOTE (Mercer @ Sep 28 2012, 01:00 PM) *
Yeah, I remember a topic a few years ago about detecting a sniper firing a silenced weapon, and the modifiers could get as bad as -14. That said, most of my characters start with Perception pools in the 13-16 range, with phys ads trending a few points higher than my sams.


-6 from silencer modification
-1 from electronic firing
-3 from far away
-2 from distracted observer
-2 from interfering sound

Which reminds me to ask.... visibility modifiers. Are the exclusive, stackable, semi-stackable?
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (StealthSigma @ Sep 28 2012, 11:57 AM) *
-6 from silencer modification
-1 from electronic firing
-3 from far away
-2 from distracted observer
-2 from interfering sound

Which reminds me to ask.... visibility modifiers. Are the exclusive, stackable, semi-stackable?


Don't forget the Sub-Sonic Ammunition (for an additional -1), though the believeability of that being used from a Mile away is really stretching it. Of course, if the Sniper is a Mile away, I am not going to give any more information on that successful Perception Roll than somewhere within a 180 Degree zone horizontally and vertically. After all, at that range, your round is traveling on a downward trajectory, and a fairly steep downward trajectory at that. *shrug*
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