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Stingray
Hello!! i am trying to make martial artist troll w/ swords and finding Arnis de mano
martial art from other forums..
i was just wandering if arnis de maro can be used w/ Monofilament Swords?
( my books are now in my folks..frown.gif )
Sid Nitzerglobin
QUOTE (Stingray @ Sep 30 2012, 03:33 AM) *
Hello!! i am trying to make martial artist troll w/ swords and finding Arnis de mano
martial art from other forums..
i was just wandering if arnis de maro can be used w/ Monofilament Swords?
( my books are now in my folks..frown.gif )

Sure, advantages should apply to all weapons using the Blades or Clubs skill for sure.
Stingray
QUOTE (Sid Nitzerglobin @ Sep 30 2012, 10:34 AM) *
Sure, advantages should apply to all weapons using the Blades skill

Thank u for quick answer!
Raiden
MONOFILAMENT KATANA!!!
Stingray
..bump in the road.. does Wired Reflexes and Reaction Enchanters need to be same Cyberware grade to
work together?
SpellBinder
Depends on the GM. Personally I'd say no to a monofilament sword.
QUOTE (Arsenal, page 156)
At the gamemaster’s discretion, this specialization may not apply to all situations, if he feels the circumstances fall outside of the style's reach. For example, the gamemaster may decide that a character with the Unarmed Combat skill and the Martial Arts specialization in the style of Boxing may not apply his specialization bonus when grappling with an opponent on the ground, as the boxing style does not normally encompass groundfighting techniques.
and
QUOTE (page 157)
Arnis de Mano emphasizes the use of clubs and knives, especially to disarm the opponent—preferably by breaking the weapon (or the hand that holds the weapon).
Emphasis mine. Again, double check with your GM on this first. He/she may feel differently than I.
SpellBinder
QUOTE (Stingray @ Sep 30 2012, 02:00 AM) *
..bump in the road.. does Wired Reflexes and Reaction Enchanters need to be same Cyberware grade to
work together?

As far as I know, no, they do not have to be of the same grade, or even of the same rating.
_Pax._
OTOH, a Cougar Fineblade, the long-bladed variety, most assuredly is still a knife.

And does as much damage as a Monofilament Sword.

^_^
Raiden
I have found that the game makes it so that if you build for it, unarmed combat does and will do more damage than blades and clubs frown.gif. but thats fine by me, I love martial arts.
SpellBinder
QUOTE (_Pax._ @ Sep 30 2012, 02:02 AM) *
OTOH, a Cougar Fineblade, the long-bladed variety, most assuredly is still a knife.

And does as much damage as a Monofilament Sword.

^_^
A point short on damage and reach, but something I'd certainly allow with this martial arts style. Especially in the hands of a troll.
Stingray
Thank u all for your replies!
instead of swords, i try 2x Katar, Trolls reach and AP ( + reaction 9) makes them really scary combination..
biggrin.gif
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (SpellBinder @ Sep 30 2012, 10:00 AM) *
Depends on the GM. Personally I'd say no to a monofilament sword. and Emphasis mine. Again, double check with your GM on this first. He/she may feel differently than I.
Your quote refers to the martial arts Specialization not to the styles or maneuvers. A bonus in blades is a bonus in all blades. All the quote says is the GM has a right to not make the martial arts specialization a blanket +2 (which by strict reading and knowledge of martial arts it is).
_Pax._
I would rule the same as Spellbinder. If the style says it works with "clubs and knives", then I'm certainly not going to let you use it's advantages while wielding a spear, or an axe, or a sword.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (_Pax._ @ Sep 30 2012, 09:29 AM) *
I would rule the same as Spellbinder. If the style says it works with "clubs and knives", then I'm certainly not going to let you use it's advantages while wielding a spear, or an axe, or a sword.


This be Truth. smile.gif
Glyph
A sword-wielding troll would be a bit of a grey area to me; to a troll, a sword basically is a knife.

I would probably draw the line at a troll with a claymore. smile.gif
RdMarquis
Isn't a club meant to be used as a stand in for a sword, anyway? In Filipino martial arts, I mean.
SpellBinder
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Sep 30 2012, 05:23 AM) *
Your quote refers to the martial arts Specialization not to the styles or maneuvers. A bonus in blades is a bonus in all blades. All the quote says is the GM has a right to not make the martial arts specialization a blanket +2 (which by strict reading and knowledge of martial arts it is).
Right, which is why I said 'check with your GM on this first' in my first post. I wholly expect some GMs to let the bonus apply to anything that might constitute a blade, from scalpel to naginata and beyond.
Raiden
A bladed edge weapon is a Bladed weapon. you know how to cut with it, and block with it. if it said +2 to swords, then anything that doesnt count as a shortsword to a claymore is out. IE, knives, scalpels, cardboard cutters etc.
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (SpellBinder @ Sep 30 2012, 09:52 PM) *
Right, which is why I said 'check with your GM on this first' in my first post. I wholly expect some GMs to let the bonus apply to anything that might constitute a blade, from scalpel to naginata and beyond.
My point was what you quoted only applies to specializations (i.e. the +2 dice pool bonus to certain skill checks) and not styles or maneuvers. There is no option for the GM to restrict the usefulness of the latter two unless he is willing to play outside the rules. Specializations on the other hand can and should be restricted, especially if their name can be understood as encompassing all uses of a skill (most martial arts have offensive, defensive and subduing techniques).
Raiden
well Dakka, thier is a subdual option for unarmed specialization. Ive taken alot of martial arts classes and honestly you flow from defense to offense, (push away a punch with one hand and then follow that by stepping into them and punching in return) as a rudimentary example. there really isnt a Defense and an Offense, same goes for swordplay. some GMs are harder on the crackdown of dice pools then others. but for unarmed I in my opinion would say that taking martial arts as a specialization is only viable IF you have a martial arts learned. then you get +2 whenever you are fighting. defensive or offensive, but NOT on subdual maneuvers.
Dakka Dakka
Specializations are not mutually exclusive (there are some with overlap and some that are subsets of another specialization). If a particular martial art has subdual techniques and you use that martial art to subdue an opponent, that specialization would apply just as well as a specialization in subduing opponents by RAW. I agree that it should be at most two of the three options, but by RAW there is no such restriction. Arsenal clarified that the GM is allowed to introduce such an restriction on the IMHO misnamed specialization.

All of this has nothing to do with martial arts styles or maneuvers.
Marwynn
The whole point of Arnis de Mano (and its dozens of variants) is to be able to use anything one handed, or nothing at all. So yes, it should apply to swords as well as axes if that's what your character wants to use. For a Troll, a human-sized sword's probably a good-sized dagger and a normal Claymore could be a one-handed sword.

Your GM has final say, of course, but the martial art itself won't prevent you from using it with monofilament swords.
_Pax._
QUOTE (Glyph @ Sep 30 2012, 01:41 PM) *
A sword-wielding troll would be a bit of a grey area to me; to a troll, a sword basically is a knife.

I assume, when a troll buys a sword capable of surviving hits that deal troll-strength-based damage, that it's a troll-sized sword.

That is to say, "damned big". Which, I might add, would be covered by the "metahuman adjustment" thing a troll needs, to be able to wield said weapon without a die pool penalty.
Glyph
Not necessarily. It just means it has a troll-sized handle, not that the rest of the weapon is any bigger (it doesn't have any extra reach or base damage). Something like a troll-modified Streetline Special would look pretty comical, a tiny gun with a handle several times bigger than the rest of the weapon. They have made a few concessions to the massive size of trolls with optional rules (being able to use two-handed weapons one-handed, Strength reducing recoil), but it what an actual "troll-sized" weapon should be like has not truly be addressed, in my opinion.
ShadowDragon8685
A sword sized for a troll in Shadowrun would be about as big as a Grand Daiklaive from Exalted, and probably capable of dealing similarly disgustingly huge damage.

As in, you might need to actually write rules to state that it doesn't matter how hard you're hitting or with how big a sword, you're not cleaving through a tank's armor, but feel free to chop a Renraku Red Samurai straight in twain in one blue, milspec hardsuit or not.


Of course, a Troll should get a concealability bonus, too; a human will have a hard time concealing an Ares Predator, but a troll, not so much.
Manunancy
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Oct 1 2012, 01:59 AM) *
A sword sized for a troll in Shadowrun would be about as big as a Grand Of course, a Troll should get a concealability bonus, too; a human will have a hard time concealing an Ares Predator, but a troll, not so much.


If the predator is human-fitted obviously yes - but a troll-adaptated pistol will probably be about as difficult to hide thanks ot it's troll-sized grip. things get blurry with bigger stuff where even a troll-sized grip won't alter the weapon(s overal size.
The Jopp
QUOTE (Stingray @ Sep 30 2012, 08:15 AM) *
Thank u all for your replies!
instead of swords, i try 2x Katar, Trolls reach and AP ( + reaction 9) makes them really scary combination..
biggrin.gif


Now make him a changeling with X6 arms and X6 knives.

Skill 6 (+2)
Attribute: 5
Restricted Gear (bioware) Muscle Toner 4
Reflex Recorder (Blades)

So: Pool 6 + Attribute 9 + Reflex Recorder +1: 16D6 / 4= 4D6 +2

So X6 attacks with 6D6 each and we add +1 to Reach to each dagger due to troll.

I'm not sure about how reach functions in regards to multiple weapons but shouldn't the "wall of steel" approach function.

A wielder of reach 1 with X6 weapons can use several of them in a defensive manner to give the enemy a -4 (4 weapons) while giving himself a +2 (2 weapons) in the above character design?.
Glyph
Just don't attack the dude with Arnis De Mano's ability to do damage on disarm, combined with Two-Weapon Style and Disarm maneuvers - six attacks of 7d6 will just get you badly wounded six times.
The Jopp
QUOTE (Glyph @ Oct 1 2012, 10:16 PM) *
Just don't attack the dude with Arnis De Mano's ability to do damage on disarm, combined with Two-Weapon Style and Disarm maneuvers - six attacks of 7d6 will just get you badly wounded six times.


I just had the hilarious image in my head of someone who stabs himself to death six times at once. grinbig.gif
Stahlseele
"The Difference between a Sword and a Club is only the side you use for hitting people"
The Jopp
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Oct 2 2012, 10:06 AM) *
"The Difference between a Sword and a Club is only the side you use for hitting people"


"Except that a club can more comfortable be wielded from the wrong end" - Fingerless Bob
Bearclaw
I stopped letting people take "martial arts" as a specialization. If you have the skill, you have studied martial arts. Duh, right? "So you have unarmed combat with a specialization in unarmed combat?"
So, kicking, punching, subdual, disarming, defense, and other specifics are acceptable specializations at my table.
As in, my son has a black belt in Tae Kwon Do. He is generally skilled in unarmed combat, but he would definitely have a specialization in "kicking".
_Pax._
A good replacement would be to specify WHICH martial art you have specialised in. So Bearclaw, your son could have, say, Unarmed Combat 4 (Tae Kwon Do +2).
Stahlseele
Which would mean he gets +2 dice to every thing he does using one of the MA moves.
Glyph
The problem with a martial arts specialization is that there are a lot of martial arts out there that deal with hitting people, blocking attacks, and grappling. Wildcat, for instance. Trying to decide if things fall under the purview of a specific martial art is a complicated headache and a long argument, waiting to happen. The way I see it, you are best off doing one of three things:

One, allow the specialization to apply to all aspects of unarmed (or in some cases armed) combat, for people who have bought a martial arts quality.

Two, make people pick two areas (from attacking, blocking, and subdual), which are at least semi-consistent with the martial art that they have picked.

Three, make martial arts a quality only, and change the martial arts specialization to "striking".
_Pax._
Four, apply the Specialisation bonus whenever that skillis being used, and a Maneuver chosen as part of the specific Martial Arts style is used.
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (_Pax._ @ Oct 4 2012, 07:25 AM) *
Four, apply the Specialisation bonus whenever that skillis being used, and a Maneuver chosen as part of the specific Martial Arts style is used.
Maneuvers are not tied to a particular style. While your style(s) limit the number of maneuver you may purchase, you are not limited to using them only with one of your styles.

Option four, or five would be to remove the Martial Arts Specialization from unarmed combat and possibly add the [Style] Weapons Specialization to Blades and Clubs
The Jopp
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Oct 4 2012, 01:57 AM) *
Which would mean he gets +2 dice to every thing he does using one of the MA moves.


I would say that such a specialization would not get him an advantage when fighting another opponent with the same martial art skill, at least as an equalizer.
Xenefungus
Considering that for other weapons you will use the spec. ALL of the time (e.g. Blades (Cyber-Implants)) it seems reasonable that the "Martial Arts" spec. for Unarmed could be applied to "attacking" - as opposed to Blocking or Subdual Combat. This way, all three possible options for using the skill would have a specialization.

On a sidenote, for all other melee skills you can specialize in a specific category of weapon. Expect players to ask for spec "Hardliner Gloves". I personally think this is quiet ok, because there might be times when the character doesnt have a glove available. Also, it would obviously only work for attacking and blocking, not for subdual combat.
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (Xenefungus @ Oct 4 2012, 11:59 AM) *
Considering that for other weapons you will use the spec. ALL of the time (e.g. Blades (Cyber-Implants)) it seems reasonable that the "Martial Arts" spec. for Unarmed could be applied to "attacking" - as opposed to Blocking or Subdual Combat. This way, all three possible options for using the skill would have a specialization.
Item based specializations are not the same thing as task based specializations. While the razorboy will most likely use his handrazors/spurs in melee combat those as any other weapon can be taken away/made unusable. If the Specialization however encompasses all possible tasks (attacking, defending and subduing) of a skill, the specialization cannot be taken away. While it might be a sensible house rule to limit the effect of the martial arts specialization to one or two of the three tasks, the rules make no such restriction.

QUOTE (Xenefungus @ Oct 4 2012, 11:59 AM) *
Expect players to ask for spec "Hardliner Gloves". I personally think this is quiet ok, because there might be times when the character doesnt have a glove available. Also, it would obviously only work for attacking and blocking, not for subdual combat.
Subdual combat is limited to melee not to unarmed combat. So there is no reason why an item based Specialization should not apply when the character is subduing an opponent with that item. Yes, you can even subdue someone with an axe.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Oct 4 2012, 08:09 AM) *
Subdual combat is limited to melee not to unarmed combat. So there is no reason why an item based Specialization should not apply when the character is subduing an opponent with that item. Yes, you can even subdue someone with an axe.


Ummmmm.. You can subdue with Unarmed Combat.
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Oct 4 2012, 04:21 PM) *
Ummmmm.. You can subdue with Unarmed Combat.
Yes, and with blades or clubs. There is no rules that hardliner gloves don't work in subdual combat.
The Jopp
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Oct 4 2012, 02:37 PM) *
Yes, and with blades or clubs. There is no rules that hardliner gloves don't work in subdual combat.


Yup, a good fist to the face can feel pretty subduing.

Or a chop to the neck with a reinforced glove

etc...
Xenefungus
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Oct 4 2012, 04:09 PM) *
Yes, you can even subdue someone with an axe.


I'm AFB, but that really would be stupid. I'm with Tymeaus here, it should ONLY be possible with Unarmed Combat.
CanRay
Put handle between air and neck, and pull tight: Subduing someone with an axe.
Sid Nitzerglobin
QUOTE (Xenefungus @ Oct 4 2012, 01:32 PM) *
I'm AFB, but that really would be stupid. I'm with Tymeaus here, it should ONLY be possible with Unarmed Combat.


Huh? Most forms of club/staff/stick/chain training make extensive use of subdual techniques...
_Pax._
And you can always strike with the flat of a sword, or the side of an axe.
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (CanRay @ Oct 4 2012, 07:37 PM) *
Put handle between air and neck, and pull tight: Subduing someone with an axe.
Exactly. You could just as well do that with any cylindrical weapon (clubs, staffs, spears etc.). Flexible weapons should be pretty obvious as well. (Longer) bladed weapons should work in the same way with the added threat of turning the edge towards the opponent. I think I even remeber seeing a technique that fixed the opponent's neck between the cross guard and the hilt.

Having reinforced gloves could also conceivably be an advantage in certain subdual techniques.
Sid Nitzerglobin
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Oct 4 2012, 01:29 PM) *
Exactly. You could just as well do that with any cylindrical weapon (clubs, staffs, spears etc.). Flexible weapons should be pretty obvious as well. (Longer) bladed weapons should work in the same way with the added threat of turning the edge towards the opponent. I think I even remeber seeing a technique that fixed the opponent's neck between the cross guard and the hilt.

Having reinforced gloves could also conceivably be an advantage in certain subdual techniques.

Speaking from personal experience, I think lots of Hapkido/Aikido joint locks/throws would gain an advantage by being able leverage against/dig in the reinforcement/boning in the gloves.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Xenefungus @ Oct 4 2012, 10:32 AM) *
I'm AFB, but that really would be stupid. I'm with Tymeaus here, it should ONLY be possible with Unarmed Combat.


Not QUITE what I said... smile.gif
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