So, I have played alot of pathfinder, (limited DnD 3.5)and I am going to convert the char build system with BP/karma over to the pathfinder game. IE, skills=knowledge skills, do away with levels, races would cost certain amounts, and your first class is free, you would then purchase the class abilities of you choosing, abilities with ranks would have to be taken multiple times. stats would stay the same with the modifiers = basically the equivalent of SR ATT. you would be allowed to purchase money. I have had a small discussion in s separate thread about having free class powers based on primary stat mod. akin to PP. this will be a long time in coming as I am busy with college atm. but please post thoughts, Ideas, and anything of the like here. hopefully, I will have a rough outline of how it works early December. and a almost definite version for you all on Christmas day!

You want to convert a classless system into a class-based system? Lolwut.

just the lvl system, everything else would, ideally stay the same. but you just take out the levels. add BP and karma.

Wrong holiday It's not April yet.

I think you oldies might have devoloped an acute allergy to anything d20

On a more constructive note it would essentially open up alot of creative freedom within bounds of familiar restrictions. It always bothered me how most D20 systems punish you for branching out into other areas.
Who says a wizard can't be a decent swordsman?
Who says that the warrior can't be an able diplomat?

Converting to a skill based system would erode alot of these barriers while still keeping the distinct fantasy archetypes intact.

However class would still need to apply in some sense to prevent cherry picking or making unique abilities bland to compensate.

So try and entertain the thought, if anything to sneakily convert some d20 fanatics

Point based class systems have been done a number of times, but it's not a bad idea. I think you would have better luck playing a fantasy game with SR rules (I've got some if you're interested).

Here are some references from other people:

http://samhaine.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/point-buy.pdf
http://rumkin.com/reference/dnd/media/classconstruction.pdf
https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1Ce...5TqzCTM-luLvaMg

You can also get the published book "Buy the Numbers" by Cooley Publishing. I haven't used it, but it's a guide for using experience points in a D&D system to purchase abilities rather than leveling.

Seriously, do you -play- Pathfinder? The levels are the entire method that classes are designed and balanced by. Taking them out means you would have to essentially assign every class feature a point value, at which point you might as well have just played GURPS in the first place.

thanks for the info, and I may do both thorya. but SR rules are fairly slow in combat situations with all the roles lol.

binary, yes, I had INTENDED to apply a separate cost to the class ABILITIES based on what level you would obtain them. its intended to give a different feel for the characters, you get to make him and enjoy him. your not waiting to "level" up so you can finally enjoy the things that you want. some would argue that progression is why its fun, and sometimes It can be. others. meh. all opinions are welcome but I would prefer at the very least. constructive criticism and not pure hate for my idea. if you do not like my Idea, then do not read the thread. this was intended as a little something fun which people could put ideas in, and eventually POSSIBLY play with.

also pathfinder was the first tabletop I had the enjoyment of playing and have played it quite a bit. which is why I feel I may be able to convert it.

Just use Anime d20. Just make sure you get rid of some of the more "flashy" elements, get rid of Combat skills if you want to use the D&D monster manuals*, and make it so everyone uses the Adventurer character class.



* == the reason to get rid of the combat skills is because with then in, then your characters will almost never miss the enemy, and hitting them will be a stone bitch.

Don't you know that D20 causes cancer?

lol D20 players say the same thing about every other system XD. but I am attempting to make it so it causes no cancer for anyone lol. (and still roll a d20)

The d20 system isn't bad, no, but it's good for the primary games it's used for (Pathfinder, D&D 3.5, Spycraft, etc). There is good reason that most games have eschewed a class and level based system in favor of a far more open-to-customization one.

Haha I love how I'm not the only one pretending that D&D 4ed never happened

That's the reason I put up the Anime d20 system. It allows you to customize your character the way that Shadowrun allows you to, but also allows you to use all the D&D 3.X books.


4th edition D&D is not a RPG... it's a board game with the name Dungeons & Dragons slapped on it... kinda like that FPS that is must-not-be-named in this forum.

whats this 4E DnD which you speak of?

Shadowrun has already been converted to D20
I read about it in the German Forum Tanelorn and it was made by the user Blut & Glas (IIRC)

So If You're serious about converting SR You should try to contact Blut & Glas

He who dances in many Forums
Medicineman

Put down the peace pipe, other way around, introducing SR rulesets to a d20 system
^^


Meh, why can't a 3ds have a proper text interface

@Kitsune
Funny you mention THAT game, I got featured in PC gamer bitching about the fact that it had absolutely nothing to do with SR and spat in the face of it's namesake.
Ah the times when printed gaming media had any news value

Im not on a Warpath
Raiden wants tor convert the SR4A Rules to a D20/Pathfinder system.
This has already been done in Germany so I thought I tell You this so You can use this Conversion

with a Peaceful Dance
Medicineman

White man can't read assumes Medicine man dancing with spirits, clearly it's my dance that's drug induced

away from PC,

@medicineman
is it a complete overhaul of system? or just the chargen and leveling based aspects?

Edited last post realising I got it all backwards, clearly I need sleep

I'm not quite sure, but I think its a complete conversion.
You should ask Blut & Glas Yourself

HeyaHeyaHeyaJa
Medicineman

Maybe check out GURPS Cyberpunk as a jumping off point as well (assuming it's still around)? Not d20, but a bit more streamlined in combat from a number of rolls perspective from what I recall (in 1e anyways) and totally modular.

Do you mean BESM d20? If so, there are some serious issues there. Then again the problems I saw came when I saw someone hand out full points and then have their players still roll their stats.

The Short Answer is just to go with d20 Modern, attach extra books as needed. That way you're working with classes built around the six attributes, so it's less weird to say "I'm a Sixth Level Face!".

The Long Answer asks you the question, "why?". What's the purpose of what you're trying to do?

If it's rules complexity, making it d20 ain't going to make it any easier - actually, you're looking at more work. It takes a good while to stat stuff up in 3.5; you have to take into account the multitude of little feats that add into Big Things, you have to take into account special abilities, special attributes, resistances, all sorts of messy things. If you're the kind of person that likes digging into the guts of things and writing every little thing, d20 is probably your game.

If you're looking for something that's a little easier to run? Shadowrun essentially runs off of the oWoD system, with a small tweak here and there. The mechanics chapter is a bit of a mess, but if you pay attention, there's a strong core, with some oddities that are easy enough to tweak. As to your "combat takes too long"; the only real problem that I've had with Shadowrun is that if you're the one dude that doesn't have extra IPs, you'll be sitting around for awhile. But combat is all of two rolls - less if you're willing to use some of the rules tweaks they mention in said mechanical chapter.

There's also Savage Worlds conversions out there - which, I'm told, keep the "crunchiness" of d20 with the Shadowrun feel.

Elsewise, there's Dungeon World conversions, Old School Hack conversions, a great Mouse Guard conversion I saw a while back - don't feel limited to just d20 man! There's more out there.

And I'm sorry, 4e D&D did happen, and it was a good thing for the roleplaying hobby.

raiden, just to make sure I understand what you're looking for. Do you want a game set in a corporate controlled future with pathfinder rules, but classless with a buy point character system? Or do you want a fantasy game with pathfinder rules with Shadowrun style character creation? Or are you looking for shadowrun rules converted to a d20 system?

no, just wanted to make it easier to create your char in pathfinder. I have likes and dislikes of how the level system works with the class abilities. (its to keep it balanced yes i know this) but I want to make a way to create a char, almost as open ended as a SR char. using pathfinder classes. (or DnD classes) example. as a paladin, you have to wait till lvl 20 to get one of the best things about your class, (at this point you will not get to use it much) I was hoping to create a way to get this at the start. sure you can do a lvl 20 campiagn but then there is no progression, if there is, you already rid. broken. maybe its a pipe dream. but eh, I want to try anyway lol

as I am understanding it,

Pathfinder, no Levels, Keep the classes, minimalize the Stats, add in a BP style Point Buy system instead of the version used in PF, keep the Fantasy, keep it an open character design like SR, but the flavor & classes of PF.

sounds pretty right

Classless, BP d20, here you go

http://www.rpgnow.com/product/51255/Eclips...rsona-Shareware

thank you, but please refer to the post above you.

That's not a bug, that's a design feature. They're called 'capstone abilities' for a reason. The 20th level awesome thing is a reward for staying in a class for 20 levels rather than using multiple classes to stack up bonuses. If you could get those abilities at the start, you could essentially trivialize any opponent scaled to your character's amount of experience.

In Shadowrun parlance, this is the equivalent of letting everyone go deltaware happy, or handing out initiation levels at chargen.

To use your example of Paladin, here's the 20th level ability.



Now then, just the damage resistance alone is an absurdly large power bump. The base hit points per level for a Paladin are 1d10. Monsters up to level 5 or so generally swing for 1d6. This would mean that a Paladin character with this ability would essentially be immune to most everything he will fight, up to somewhere around level 8 or 9 monsters, when creatures start having the ability to bypass damage reduction. Even then, only demons and devils, very rare and powerful monsters, routinely have evil-aligned natural weapons.

This is why it is hard to give constructive suggestions. The level system is built into Pathfinder's basic design premise. It is how scaling is determined for monsters, treasure, and PC abilities at every level. Replacing it with a point buy system essentially requires writing an entire new game from scratch.

If you want to make a d20-based classless system, you've got to do the following:

Separate the key mechanical components of the character. You'll get:
Attributes
Hit Points
Saves
Base Attack Bonus
Class Abilities
Skills
Feats

In the class system these are all tied together to level, so you'll need to figure out the relative worth of each component and assign points accordingly. The trickiest part will be handling class abilities, since these are generally balanced against the other features of the class and don't necessarily provide equivalent power increases based on the level at which the ability is acquired. Each class ability will have to be assigned its own value. Further, there needs to be some scaled cost involved to discourage ridiculously overpowered combinations (Paladin save bonus + Sorcerer spells + Bard music).

Furthermore, some thought will have to be put into gauging the characters' general power level, or else designing fights will be a major chore. It's possible you'll see fighters with +15 to hit and 8 hit points, or wizards who can cast three fireballs a day but can't tie their own shoes. Players will be able to screw themselves pretty hard, and unless you keep a close eye on all the sheets, you'll inadvertently kill them off with a challenge you thought should be easy.

yeah I knew it was gonna be a huge undertaking lol. but it may be a fun one lol there will be alot of trail and error with my pathfinder group, since they WILL be my test dummies, >:} lol. imo the hardest part will be the HP, saves, and BaBs.

The more I hear about this, the more I think what you're asking has nothing to do with Shadowrun.

I'm totally on board with making d20 chargen a flexible, points-based, classless system. What binary says is true though; giving a level 20 ability to a level 1 character is pretty game-breaking.

What you could do is go through all of the class bonuses and figure out a point cost to them. Choose the save bonuses, figure out a cost for those. Choose the cost for skills, attributes, and base attack. Plus a cost for races. You'll have to decide if you want spell-casting to be bought in levels or not (can someone cast a level 10 spell but not a level 0 spell?)

Given that XP costs increase geometrically, I'd figure those high-level class abilities will cost geometrically more than the low ones. The result being, your high level abilities will STILL be unavailable to starting characters. You could start with a sucky character and just not spend points on anything, then buy that one power later on, I guess. But that leads into ...

Geometric rise in XP income means you're almost always going to benefit from little increases early, rather than big ones later. Boosting Con or Str every few hundred XP means it's easier to get the next few hundred. A group of level 1 characters saving up for big powers will only be getting 50-100xp kills for that whole time, while the guys who spend every point ASAP will soon be getting 500xp kills. It's like interest at the bank. The only way around that is to rework the whole XP system as well (or have brilliant players capable of wrapping up high level quests while still being low level).

All-in-all, I'd rather play in the game you're suggesting over what's in the books as written. But I still don't think you'll be able to get those top abilities early on without breaking everything else.

Nezumi's got it about right. The resulting mess would be either virtually the same, or totally game-breaking.

Sure you can cast 10th lvl spells, if you survive the drain

I can envision something along the lines of a Class based initiation system, every ability of the class is assigned a PP value based on its power level, & you gain PP through the typical methods, you can either diversify & have many smaller abilities or you can save up PP & go for the high level ability early...if its the only ability you have it may not be as useful.

Combat feats as 1 & non-coms as .5 seems a bit fair for a fighter, for example

That's an... issue with Pathfinder.


There really is no such thing as a non-combat feat. Every skill and ability in the game can be used to affect combat somehow, because literally the rules are only designed to cover combat.

You may be slightly more interested in the 5th edition D&D project from Wizards, which throws back to 2nd Edition, and generally solves the "exploding difficulty" problem (where eventually you have to have DC 40 locks in your world since your Rogue has +30 to Open Locks) by making most numerical increases pretty rare. It could probably be adapted.

I like this idea, if my original one fails I will probably look into this even further. as for the spells, you would purchase spells you want to, (limited in cost of the spell and possibly a base amount, which can be increased via payments)

For what its worth Mutants and Masterminds is a point based d20 system. Though they do a couple things different (damage for one, no hit points, instead resisted roll and wounds) they do have conversions to put things back to normal d20

WHY must your world scale? If a Thief has a Open Locks skill of +30, he deserves to open common Locks (DC 25) casually. I absolutely refuse to use the exploding difficulty that you describe. There is absolutely no call for it, and it completely destroys verisimilitude. Instead, I alter the campaign goals once characters hit a certain level (dependant upon players and the campaign they are pursuing). After a while, the Thief is no longer using his thief skills to plan petty thefts. Now, he is embroiled in a nations spanning intrigue, or possibly running his own thief's guild. Highly depenbdant upon the themes of the campaign at the time. Same goes for all other character types.

After over 20 years of the campaign world evolving, and many groups, this seems to work the best. Exploding Difficulties are the bane of a great campaign, in my opinion.

And I am not that big of a fan of 5th Edition. *shrug*

Because challenge, risk, and the possibility of failure make a game compelling. If the system demands that characters must get better at things, then there needs to be a balancing reason for that improvement to matter -- not only to make things easier, but also to allow access to things that start out as unattainable or forbidden. If the characters completely surpass the challenge of the setting, there's not a whole lot of reason to use any system at all.

Game mechanics define a large portion of a world. Basic d20 games define worlds of enormous innate power disparities. Shadowrun, by contrast, is a world on a bell curve, because that's what the system is designed to produce.



I can't say anyone's a "big fan" of it, since it's not really out yet. The available materials are pretty thin so far, but they're trending in a good direction (which is any direction away from 4E, honestly).

In french we have DK System which is trial to modify the d20 system into a free class-less system.

While many applaude to this, I find it sucks. With free selection of feats and stuff, you can bypass every limit the class system.

I don't find the d20-spirit mix well free selection. It opens too many worm cans.

Any movement away from 4E is good movement. But I tend to favor 3.5 with a Black Company Overlay. Have been testing 5th, and I am not impressed at all. *shrug*

http://danzig138.tripod.com/d20modern.html

This is probably not what you're looking for, but this thread went into the TL:DR realm for me. If it's good for you, cool. If not, well, hey, I tried....