In SR4A, under "Force" (page 182), there's a part that states by declaring the use of Edge, it does not limit the amount of Hits that can be achieved, regardless of the Force of the spell.

Does this mean you can set a spell's Force to 1, declare Edge, and keep all the hits?

Would the surplus of Hits affect Drain for Direct Combat Spells such as Stunbolt?

from what I understand yes, you can use an F1 spell, use edge & keep all hits, & those hits would still effect anything they would normally effect I imagine, if you're using that rule for Direct Combat spells.

This is great fun with sustaining foci.

Sort of. AFAIK you roll your Edge pool separately from your regular spellcasting pool. Your regular spellcasting pool is still limited by the Force of the spell you're casting, while any/all hits you get from your Edge pool are then added in.

As far as I am aware edge dice added to a test before a roll are counted as a single pool not two separate pools. The only time edge dice are a separate pool is when you add them in after rolling the attribute + skill pool.

Decided to look this up:

Yea, any pool you add edge to are edge dice. They all can explode 6's. I see no reason to differentiate dice in a spell casting pool if it does not happen anywhere else. But I can see how that can be one way to read the rules.

So a spellcaster with a lot of Edge, can just use that Edge, set the spell to Force 1, and go crazy with annihilating the opposition, especially with Indirect Combat Spells?

until they run out of edge, because Edge is such a Finite resource it may not be smart to do that as you never know when you'll find the situation where you REALLY need that edge.

Honestly, you should always use Force of 3 as your baseline (If drain is your only concern). Base Drain is always F/2, Round Down (+/- Modifiers from there). So even a Force 3 Spell is only base of 1 Drain.

how about "because the spellcasting pool is the only pool that says it treats edge dice differently from other dice".

because that sounds like a reason to me.

And the first bullet in spending Edge, SR4a page 74, is written in a way that pretty much says Edge dice are a separate thing; "All dice (not just Edge dice) rolled on this test are subject to the Rule of Six (p. 62), meaning that if you roll a 6, you count it as a hit and roll it again."

So, yeah, you spend Edge for extra dice in a spellcasting test, the whole pool of dice can explode, but only the added Edge dice can explode beyond the limits of the spell's Force.

It's such a bullshit rule - no need for it at all.

If you interpret the rules a certain way (and some do, as per that other thread) a single point of Edge can accomplish three things at once:

- Achieve more hits
- Negate a glitch/critical glitch (by adding dice)
- Exceed the Force limit

Too much I say.

Only two of those three can occur at the same time according to those others...

I think that adding edge after the roll would allow for it to happen (but then, quite clearly, only the edge dice could exceed Force).

So what you are saying is different from how I've interpreted the rule in SR4A, page 183. Does this mean even if a spellcaster declares the use of Edge before rolling the Spellcasting Test, the Edge dice are actually rolled separately for ease of tracking the exploding dice for the Edge dice, and only the Edge dice Hits are used in surpassing the limitation of the spell's Force?

As per spellbinder's point above, Edge dice are different from the rest of the pool. I use different coloured dice to make it easy to differentiate and thereby follow the rule.

Pretty much, Major Doom, though I wish I knew where on page 183 you were referring to (maybe meaning 182?). And I'm sure that other GMs out there have interpreted this the same way you have, and there are some that may even prefer to let an Edge buffed spellcasting test be wholly unlimited by Force (check with your GM before trying to count on this).

And pbangarth's suggestion of using differently colored dice is a good idea too, though I'd probably have plenty of the second color just in case you have a major lucky streak and repeatedly roll a bunch of 6's.

Yeah I meant page 182.

No sorry but this is wrong, it is stated very clearly in the rule of six pg.62 and in spending edge on pg. 74 that all dice that roll a 6 get counted and rerolled when edge is spent on the rule of six.

Aerospider I would reread the edge rules on pg.74 if I where you because edge never does more than one thing at any given time. in the first sentence under spending edge it says "you can choose to have one of the following happen."

The rule of six still applies to declaring Edge for a spell's Force. Basically, your Spellcasting dice pool gains the rule of six, but regardless how much Hits you achieve, Force limits it. Then you roll Edge dice separately, for ease of tracking which dice are the Edge dice, then however many Hits you get in total (which includes the rule of six) is added for surpassing the Force of the spell.

Also, since Edge dice are the only dice that surpass the Force limit, I'm assuming that it doesn't matter if you declare the use of Edge before your Spellcasting Test or after, since the effect is the same.

I don't recall saying anywhere where the spellcasting dice didn't get the Rule Of 6 when you spend Edge to add dice to the skill test. The majority of the discussion had been regarding magic being cast at Force 1, where in it doesn't matter how many 6's you roll for the Edge added spellcasting test as the spellcasting dice pool (note that this is not including the added Edge dice pool) is limited to one hit no matter what, so I just did not mention it.

Now if you're casting higher Force spells, like most any mage is going to ("go big or go home" is the line I recall reading elsewhere more than once), then yes, your spellcasting dice get the Rule Of 6 just like the Edge dice. Those extra hits apply to your overall success just like anywhere else, but that does not mean you can get more hits than Force from your spellcasting Dice.

Sort of. If you declare you're spending Edge to add dice after the original test has been made, only the Edge dice get the Rule Of 6. If you declare it before you roll, all of the dice get the Rule Of 6. This part doesn't matter what kind of test you're making.

Now if you're casting a spell at Force 1 and get 1 or more hits on your spellcasting test, then no, it doesn't really matter when you declare you're spending Edge to add dice. But if you're casting a spell at a much higher level, then it certainly will matter as you're likely not to be getting more hits than the spell's Force and the Rule Of 6 could help you get there.

I agree with you here except with your second sentence. It always matters when you declare the use of edge because of dice pool modifiers. If your going to cast a spell you are always better off making sure you can re-roll any six's you might get with spell casting specialization and or the power foci and mentor spirit ect, unless of course you are using the increased drain from net hit optional rules which I don't as I think they are total bs.

Honestly, it's not really that overwhelming of a tactic. Casting a spell at Force: 1 is one whopping point of Drain less than a Force: 5 spell, at the cost of 4 points of base damage. It's better to use Edge to boost normal casting, rather than expend such a finite resource to make a weak attack slightly better.

it gets much better when you are (for example) using a rating 1 sustaining focus

I'm not interested in resurrecting a discussion that got disabled by the admin, but there are a body of DSers who argue that if you add Edge dice to a glitched roll and doing so raises the total number of dice to more than twice the number of 1s then the test is no longer glitched.

For example - on a Force 3 spell you roll 1, 1, 1, 3, 3, 4
That's a critical glitch, but fortunately you have a healthy Edge of 6.
So you roll 6 Edge dice and get 1, 2, 5, 5, 5, 5
The roll is now successful, is no longer a glitch and has more useable hits than the Force of the spell.
Three things for the price of one.

I'm not saying this is RAI, or that it's the best interpretation or that it's even my interpretation, but it can and has been interpreted that way.

Two points less. Half of one, rounded down, is 0.

There is always a minimum of 1 Drain. So no...

That's for total drain value, so while a stunbolt should always be cast at a minimum of F5 (barring extreme cases where you doubt you can resist 1 drain, and it would be overcasting), it makes perfect sense to do F1 Increase Reflexes (DV 2 at F1, where it would be DV 3 at F3 and so on) with edge for sustaining foci.

Without a doubt... AS long as you don't mind losing your Foci upon entering a Rating 1 Background count. Sucks when that happens, and it happens fairly regularly.

I hope you're considering adding Edge dice to that Force 1 Increase Reflexes spell when you cast it, otherwise you're not gonna meet that Threshold 2 for the minimum benefit of +1 Initiative & +1 Initiative Pass.

And what TJ said. Rating 1 Ebbs/Domains aren't all that uncommon. Worse thing that could happen would be to wander into a field of flowers and find yourself in the middle of a Rating 3 Ebb created by those flowers (the name of the plant that does this escapes me at the moment).

The other thing to think about is wards, which are also fairly common. For a mage using a sustaining focus normally, it is fairly simple to end the spell, go past the ward, then recast it again (although having to resist Drain again is an annoyance). A mage relying on Edge to have the spell functional at all, though, would have to go through a point of Edge every time that happens.

Indeed... Never worth it in my experience.

Oh, I don't know, could come in useful if a squad of Red Samurai were about to corner you ... but yeah, I would consider using Edge in sustained spells wasteful as a SOP, due to danger from ward or perhaps BGC (for low force spells/foci) disruption.

But as you said upthread, at F3 or even F5, use of Edge to exceed the F hits cap can be pretty useful. One of my players started with a MAG 3 human mage with Edge 6, and boy he could sling the mojo when he needed to!

No doubt, but I bet he did not sling it into the Foci. I had a similar character, Magic 3 Caster with only an Edge of 3. The vast majority of his spells did not require hits above 3 (He had no combat spells at all), but the ability to use the Edge to bypass the cap on those rare occasions it was needed was handy indeed.