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NiL_FisK_Urd
I alwasy found it disturbing that a hacker needs a high-response commlink to be able to run some programs without resorting to tricks like custom software suites or using remote access software on a vehicle-mounted nexus. Therefore i came up with the following custom commlink modification:

Commlink Memory Upgrade

Memory upgrade increases your processor limit by its rating and cannot exceed your response. It uses one upgrade slot on your commlink and has the same aviability and price as response modules.
ShadowDragon8685
Well, that might work, but it's not all that necessary. Just get Ergonomic software that runs without counting against the system limit. smile.gif
NiL_FisK_Urd
You can only run [System] Ergonomic Programs at once, so you have 3 Programs more on a DR3 comlink (for a max. of 12), whereas with my fix you could run 18 Programs on a DR3 Memory 3 comlink.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (NiL_FisK_Urd @ Nov 11 2012, 08:43 AM) *
You can only run [System] Ergonomic Programs at once, so you have 3 Programs more on a DR3 comlink (for a max. of 12), whereas with my fix you could run 18 Programs on a DR3 Memory 3 comlink.


And why is that useful, exactly? DR3 comlinks should not be doing such things. smile.gif
Besides, that is what Response Enhancers are for. smile.gif
NiL_FisK_Urd
Response Enhancers only boost matrix initiative.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (NiL_FisK_Urd @ Nov 11 2012, 09:18 AM) *
Response Enhancers only boost matrix initiative.


Yes, which is the only real thing you need to worry about when running programs. smile.gif
Between those and Ergonomic, you are generally able to run more programs than you really need. Hell, I have a hacker that runs 25 or so programs. 4 of which are IC with payloads. If I was to remove the IC, well, I could fit my entire Program payload into a R3 Comlink. *shrug*
NiL_FisK_Urd
Matrix defense uses Response + Firewall - now, if you run with Response 5(1) (normal/reduced), you have a hard time if IC spots you.
Neraph
QUOTE (NiL_FisK_Urd @ Nov 11 2012, 08:47 AM) *

Commlink Memory Upgrade

Memory upgrade increases your processor limit by its rating and cannot exceed your response. It uses one upgrade slot on your commlink and has the same aviability and price as response modules.

Is this like a dual-core processor? You have two Response chips in the same device so it gets to use both for program lists?

QUOTE (NiL_FisK_Urd @ Nov 11 2012, 09:43 AM) *
You can only run [System] Ergonomic Programs at once, so you have 3 Programs more on a DR3 comlink (for a max. of 12), whereas with my fix you could run 18 Programs on a DR3 Memory 3 comlink.

That's until system freeze, correct? When I see DR 3 I think that you can run 5 programs - 3 Ergonomic and two regular, without any response hit.

I also wonder why someone with a DR3 'link is trying to hack...
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Neraph @ Nov 11 2012, 03:01 PM) *
That's until system freeze, correct? When I see DR 3 I think that you can run 5 programs - 3 Ergonomic and two regular, without any response hit.

I also wonder why someone with a DR3 'link is trying to hack...


This... You CAN hack with a DR3 'Link, but why would you want to do so?
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (NiL_FisK_Urd @ Nov 11 2012, 11:03 AM) *
Matrix defense uses Response + Firewall - now, if you run with Response 5(1) (normal/reduced), you have a hard time if IC spots you.


Sure... And if you get seen by those IC, you deserve what you get. smile.gif
Always better to sleaze than to fight. smile.gif
If you get seen, drop a Bait Worm and move along.
NiL_FisK_Urd
A lucky roll and you are spotted - and then you are toasted.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (NiL_FisK_Urd @ Nov 12 2012, 09:00 AM) *
A lucky roll and you are spotted - and then you are toasted.


SO you get spotted. Drop a Bait Worm and Run.
That is what they are for, after all.
_Pax._
QUOTE (NiL_FisK_Urd @ Nov 11 2012, 10:43 AM) *
You can only run [System] Ergonomic Programs at once, so you have 3 Programs more on a DR3 comlink (for a max. of 12), whereas with my fix you could run 18 Programs on a DR3 Memory 3 comlink.

If yu're running a commlink with stats of 3 across the board, and you're a hacker? Save some corp the ammunition, and just off yourself now.

Seriously. There is no reason not to have 4's or 5's for your hacker. NONE. Just getting the Singularity Battle Buddy Basic, means you have 5's across the board (plus both Armor 5 and Hardening 5).
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (_Pax._ @ Nov 12 2012, 11:14 AM) *
If yu're running a commlink with stats of 3 across the board, and you're a hacker? Save some corp the ammunition, and just off yourself now.

Seriously. There is no reason not to have 4's or 5's for your hacker. NONE. Just getting the Singularity Battle Buddy Basic, means you have 5's across the board (plus both Armor 5 and Hardening 5).


Battle Buddy for the Win. smile.gif
Of course, if you upgrade from there, or purchase one of the advanced Military Comlinks, then you are cooking with Gas. smile.gif
_Pax._
Yeah, being able to upgrade to 7's,without having to buy a whole new hardware package, is a very attractive component of the Battle Buddy.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (_Pax._ @ Nov 12 2012, 11:56 AM) *
Yeah, being able to upgrade to 7's,without having to buy a whole new hardware package, is a very attractive component of the Battle Buddy.


Yep...
Falconer
Yeah, this is a badly thought out upgrade. I could see maybe 1 extra program limit for an upgrade slot but a full doubling?! Even clustering 2 commlinks together gets no benefit on this account! It's not until you cluster 4 full fledged commlinks together than you end up with double the process limit.

Really you want more program limit... you should be running a bigger response chip in the first place! That's why that upgrade and the rules for building your own equipment are there.

If you call yourself a hacker... there is no excuse whatsoever not to have at the very least a 5 to start. (okay maybe a 4 if you start with a best quality non-modded commlink from the core rulebook).
NiL_FisK_Urd
Well, this is for a low-power campaign with max. rating 3 and avail 8 for gear.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (NiL_FisK_Urd @ Nov 12 2012, 01:40 PM) *
Well, this is for a low-power campaign with max. rating 3 and avail 8 for gear.


Well, sounds like your Hacker will have to upgrade soon then. *shrug* smile.gif
Or use a custom Nexus with High Program Limits, but low availability. *shrug*
Or heck, even some of the published ones. There are Nexi out there with Availability of 8 and a 50 processor Limit, after all.
_Pax._
QUOTE (NiL_FisK_Urd @ Nov 12 2012, 03:40 PM) *
Well, this is for a low-power campaign with max. rating 3 and avail 8 for gear.

O_o

IMO, your GM needs to reconsider that "max rating 3" thing. Especially for a Hacker, that's a serious limitation. Maybe bump it to 4?

Because, well ... that Singularity Battle Buddy Basic? Availability 8R.

*shrug*

Alternately, as Tymaeus suggests, get a Nexus. The [u]Renraku Hotspot[/b] is Response 3, Signal 3, System 3, Firewall 2 - with a processor limit of 20. Costs 5,000, Availability 8. A mere 75 ups the Firewall to R3.

Compare that to a Nexus Airwave running Iris Orb (net 3-3-3-3) for 2,250.

Granted, a nexus is not a pocket-sized thing, but ... AHA. The Evo Roving Hub drone holds an Evo Mobile Terminus nexus. Response 3, Signal 5, System 3, Firewall 3, Processor Limit 50, Persona Limit 20. And, being a drone, it carries itself around.
Falconer
Or you could simply cluster 4 cheap commlinks together to keep it small and together. Now that i see what you're saying a bit more, think you're making a mountain out of molehill here. I've found these street level games a lot of fun.

Response 3, system 3, Signal whatever, proc limit 6 is pretty easy to do that way. Persona limit 4.

With optomization and ergonomic program options... pretty easy to run 8 programs at once while keeping your response at 2, yeah you only get 5 if you want to keep your response 3. Or by clustering get yourself up to 14. The limit isn't on programs loaded it's on programs running. You don't need your browse or edit running... shut it down for example. It only gets problematic I find once you start trying to run secondary independent agents with their own program loads (not agents loaded into your persona which can use programs loaded into your persona).



Pax... its not a huge problem the low avail/rating... because the opposition will most likely be similar... and it makes player skill more important since equipment numbers are smaller.
_Pax._
QUOTE (Falconer @ Nov 12 2012, 06:20 PM) *
Pax... its not a huge problem the low avail/rating... because the opposition will most likely be similar... and it makes player skill more important since equipment numbers are smaller.

Ehm. I disagree. Armor, Attack, Stealth, Exploit, Analyze. There's five programs right there. Add in Browse and Edit, and you're at seven. Those're pretty bread-and-butter for hacking, wouldn't you agree?

An R3 'link, max use of Ergonomic, can handle 5 tops, before degrading.

An R4 'link, that limit jumps to seven. Convenient, that, neh?

Also it's a shame to cut the Hermes Ikon out, just because it's Signal 4.

...

I'd suggest allowing Commlinks to have up to two points above that R3 limit. You can either pile those both onto one stat - Signal 5, or Firewall 5 - or spread them out - Response 4 and System 4.

Or just go Ockham's Razor on it, and say "R4 limit". Even just "R4 limit for matrix stats", maybe.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (_Pax._ @ Nov 12 2012, 04:46 PM) *
Ehm. I disagree. Armor, Attack, Stealth, Exploit, Analyze. There's five programs right there. Add in Browse and Edit, and you're at seven. Those're pretty bread-and-butter for hacking, wouldn't you agree?

An R3 'link, max use of Ergonomic, can handle 5 tops, before degrading.

An R4 'link, that limit jumps to seven. Convenient, that, neh?

Also it's a shame to cut the Hermes Ikon out, just because it's Signal 4.

...

I'd suggest allowing Commlinks to have up to two points above that R3 limit. You can either pile those both onto one stat - Signal 5, or Firewall 5 - or spread them out - Response 4 and System 4.

Or just go Ockham's Razor on it, and say "R4 limit". Even just "R4 limit for matrix stats", maybe.


Who is this Ockham of which you speak? And why is he using a Razor?
Halinn
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Nov 13 2012, 12:55 AM) *
Who is this Ockham of which you speak? And why is he using a Razor?

I think he invented some kind of really awesome sharpening technique for small blades.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Halinn @ Nov 12 2012, 04:58 PM) *
I think he invented some kind of really awesome sharpening technique for small blades.


Ahhh. Gotcha... Makes sense now. smile.gif
_Pax._
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Nov 12 2012, 06:55 PM) *
Who is this Ockham of which you speak? And why is he using a Razor?

Ha, ha. nyahnyah.gif hehehe.
All4BigGuns
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Nov 12 2012, 09:50 AM) *
This... You CAN hack with a DR3 'Link, but why would you want to do so?


Because hacking is only your secondary or tertiary ability? Of course one definitely doesn't need an extra toy like this to be a secondary hacker.
_Pax._
QUOTE (All4BigGuns @ Nov 12 2012, 07:29 PM) *
Because hacking is only your secondary or tertiary ability? Of course one definitely doesn't need an extra toy like this to be a secondary hacker.

Even as a secondary, you should be trying for 4's (well ... signal, not so much, maybe) in as many places as possible.
ShadowDragon8685
Sometimes you have a Rating 3 commlink because you're very poor.

Sometimes you have one because it's the only commlink you have, on account of having snapped a guard's neck and taken his.


Sometimes you don't get to hack with the commlink you want, but the commlink you have.
All4BigGuns
QUOTE (_Pax._ @ Nov 12 2012, 06:33 PM) *
Even as a secondary, you should be trying for 4's (well ... signal, not so much, maybe) in as many places as possible.


Maybe if you're doing only hack-on-the-fly, but since there's a lot of extended tests for the other stuff, 2 or 3 should be sufficient--at least as long as the BS optional deal that penalizes subsequent tries is being ignored like it should be.
X-Kalibur
QUOTE (_Pax._ @ Nov 12 2012, 04:07 PM) *
Ha, ha. nyahnyah.gif hehehe.


a Parsimonious shave every time.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Nov 12 2012, 07:28 PM) *
Sometimes you have a Rating 3 commlink because you're very poor.

Sometimes you have one because it's the only commlink you have, on account of having snapped a guard's neck and taken his.


Sometimes you don't get to hack with the commlink you want, but the commlink you have.


At which pooint you are not modding it anyways. Suck it up and move along until you can afford better gear. You can Hack with Matrix Attrributes of 3, just avoid Matrix Combat. Which is not all that hard to do, most of the time. You DO want to upgrade at your soonest possibility. AS was pointed out, a Battle Buddy is Availability 8. Not all that hard to get hold of. *shrug*
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (_Pax._ @ Nov 12 2012, 05:07 PM) *
Ha, ha. nyahnyah.gif hehehe.


Oh, I know who Occam is... But you were talking about Ockham. Completely different Chap altogether. smile.gif
Neraph
QUOTE (_Pax._ @ Nov 12 2012, 04:56 PM) *
[u]Renraku Hotspot[/b]

Under-bolded?

QUOTE (Falconer @ Nov 12 2012, 05:20 PM) *
Or you could simply cluster 4 cheap commlinks together to keep it small and together. Now that i see what you're saying a bit more, think you're making a mountain out of molehill here. I've found these street level games a lot of fun.

I really think they got the persona limit and processor loads for Cluserting mixed up.

As for Signal rating, everyone should have a Sattelite Link. Hard-jack your 'link into the Link.
Falconer
Exactly my point Pax....

You allow the system to degrade by one if you need extra programs running... not loaded but running. It's a fairly fast action to switch a program from loaded to running or back. If you don't need to edit a file... you turn off edit until you do.

Occam's razor... cut the fat and run with the bare bones programs you need at any given time. Not insist you be treated special and keep harping on equipment not available to you. Example... you don't need attack loaded while running exploit on a node... once you have the login... then you need the attack and don't generally need the expoit anymore.

Also a lot of people ban the stuff out of War... battle buddy included. This kind of insistence on the best of the best of the best is what drives many GM's crazy.. especially when they set limits and people keep trying to go outside those limits.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Falconer @ Nov 13 2012, 10:45 AM) *
Also a lot of people ban the stuff out of War... battle buddy included. This kind of insistence on the best of the best of the best is what drives many GM's crazy.. especially when they set limits and people keep trying to go outside those limits.


Entertainingly, The Battle Buddy is not the Best of the Best of the Best. Besides, Device Rating 3 does not equal Magtrix Attributes of 3. Just because I have a Satellite Link does not make it a DR8 device. The Limits were DR3 and Availability of 8, IIRC. There are many devices that fit that Category with Matrix Attributes above 3. And even if WAR! is banned (don't remember if he said so or not), Nexi are not, and as has been shown, there are at least 3 Nexi that will fit the bill of the Player/character that give him what he is looking for (More Porgram Limits with no degradation of Response). *shrug* smile.gif
Halinn
QUOTE (Falconer @ Nov 13 2012, 06:45 PM) *
Also a lot of people ban the stuff out of War... battle buddy included. This kind of insistence on the best of the best of the best is what drives many GM's crazy.. especially when they set limits and people keep trying to go outside those limits.

When they set the limits so low that you cannot even begin play at professional competence, much less even a veteran (and very very far from the experts shadowrunners generally are), of course people try to get around that to be competent.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Halinn @ Nov 13 2012, 11:26 AM) *
When they set the limits so low that you cannot even begin play at professional competence, much less even a veteran (and very very far from the experts shadowrunners generally are), of course people try to get around that to be competent.


You can be competent while using a Comlink with Matrix Attributes of 3 (though you will have to be a lot more judicious on what you undertake). You will just not be as capable as someone with Matrix Attributes of 5+. *shrug*
Falconer
I thought he said nothing rated higher than 3 and avail 8. Not device rating 3 or avail 8. And a battle buddy is device rating 5 (military equipment) by that measure (not because 5 is it's matrix ratings... but because it is limited military equipment... hence the R designation.. you have a license for that son?). So, by that measure it doesn't meet both filters. A doberman drone is device rating 4 (security) by that grade as well.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Falconer @ Nov 13 2012, 11:46 AM) *
I thought he said nothing rated higher than 3 and avail 8. Not device rating 3 or avail 8. And a battle buddy is device rating 5 (military equipment) by that measure (not because 5 is it's matrix ratings... but because it is limited military equipment... hence the R designation.. you have a license for that son?). So, by that measure it doesn't meet both filters. A doberman drone is device rating 4 (security) by that grade as well.


My Point is that a COMMERCIAL Comlink would not be Military or Security (so therefore DR3) and still have Matrix Attributes of greater than 3.
Now, Availability takes care of things that are RATED with Ratings. A Matrix Attribute is not a RATING. Rated Equipment (Like Programs) is generally reflected in their Availability (ie. 100 Nuyen x Rating). See the difference I am trying to establish here? Just because there is a MAtrix Attribute above 3 does not make it RATED higher than a 3. smile.gif
NiL_FisK_Urd
QUOTE (SR4A @ p.222)
Unless it has been customized or changed in some way, assume that each of the Matrix attributes listed above for a particular device equals its Device rating.

So anything with Response 4 is not a DR3 thing anymore, and therefore not aviable.
All4BigGuns
And then there's the fact that device rating is not intended for use with PC gear. It is intended only as a simplification for 'quick and dirty' NPC making.
_Pax._
QUOTE (Neraph @ Nov 13 2012, 11:03 AM) *
Under-bolded?

No, just my fingrs autopiloting to /b regardless of what tag I actually opened up with. nyahnyah.gif


QUOTE
As for Signal rating, everyone should have a Sattelite Link. Hard-jack your 'link into the Link.

That's all well and fine, for when you want to talk to a satellite. Not so good, when you just need to talk to that camera, 1500m away across that huge parking lot.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (_Pax._ @ Nov 13 2012, 12:45 PM) *
That's all well and fine, for when you want to talk to a satellite. Not so good, when you just need to talk to that camera, 1500m away across that huge parking lot.


A Sat Link still accomplishes that feat, it just goes thorugh the Satellite to do so. smile.gif
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (NiL_FisK_Urd @ Nov 13 2012, 12:22 PM) *
So anything with Response 4 is not a DR3 thing anymore, and therefore not aviable.


See Almost Normal's Post above.
And you should read that quote again. UNLESS IT HAS BEEN CUSTOMIZED. Therefore, a Rating 3 Comlink is still a Rating 3 Comlink, even with a CUSTOM Response Chip.

But if it rolls that way where you are at, I guess that your stuck with a Nexus to accomplish what you want, then. *shrug*
_Pax._
QUOTE (Falconer @ Nov 13 2012, 12:45 PM) *
Also a lot of people ban the stuff out of War... battle buddy included. This kind of insistence on the best of the best of the best is what drives many GM's crazy.. especially when they set limits and people keep trying to go outside those limits.

What Tymaeus said.

Honestly, I could get the same 5-5-5-5, plus Armor 5 and Hardenign 5, for only a teeny bit more than the 10K "all in one package" deal of the SBB Basic:
  • Novatech Airwave (Res 3, Sig 3); 1,250 Availability -
  • Response --> 5; 4,000 Availability 12
  • Signal --> 5; 1,000 Availability 12
  • Armor 5; 250 Availability 4
  • Hardening 5; 125 Availability 4
  • Firewall 5; 2,500 Availability -
  • System 5; 2,500 Availability -


Final price 11,625 and Availability 12. SBB Basic is 10,000 and Availability 8. So really it's a very small savings, a mild advantage in availability (which at this point usually only matters after play starts), and .... that's really it.

*shrug*





QUOTE (NiL_FisK_Urd @ Nov 13 2012, 02:22 PM) *
So anything with Response 4 is not a DR3 thing anymore, and therefore not aviable.

Yeah, "customised or changed".

And every commlink has been "customised or changed"

...

A Hermes Ikon is not DR4 just because it has Signal 4. Neither is a Renraku Samurai, with Signal 4.


...


Which actually brings me to my next objection to the GM's "rating 3" thing, and applying it to matrix attributes: the Renraku Samurai is Response 2 Signal 4, for 1,000. The Novatech Airwave is Response 3, Signal 3 for 1,250.

In what universe is it logical to ban the less-capable Samurai, but allow the more-expensive Airwave?
_Pax._
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Nov 13 2012, 02:58 PM) *
A Sat Link still accomplishes that feat, it just goes thorugh the Satellite to do so. smile.gif

.... except the camera is not equipped with a satellite link. So now you've got to hack your way through, oh ... maybe a dozen nodes, possibly many more than that, just to get toa camera?

Yeah. Have fun with that. ^_^
Neraph
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Nov 13 2012, 01:58 PM) *
A Sat Link still accomplishes that feat, it just goes thorugh the Satellite to do so. smile.gif

No. A Sat link has Signal 8, which can reach a satellite but does not have to. Re-read what Signal does (SR4A, page 222).
_Pax._
QUOTE (Neraph @ Nov 13 2012, 03:05 PM) *
No. A Sat link has Signal 8, which can reach a satellite but does not have to. Re-read what Signal does (SR4A, page 222).

Hmm, "Sattelite Link" is not on page 222 of SR4A. At least, not my automagically-updated PDF copy, it's not. Even the table for signal strengths, the line for 8 says "Flight radar, dedicated ground surveillance radar".

Regardless: just because the link has a signal rating of 8 (which it's entry on p328 does confirm), it's not going to be using standard WiFi frequencies. Which the camera is going to be using.

It also requires you to stop and set up a little satellite dish - so it's not pocket sized, more like briefcase-sized.

...

Sat Links are useful, but they're not a panacea to all signal concerns.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Neraph @ Nov 13 2012, 01:05 PM) *
No. A Sat link has Signal 8, which can reach a satellite but does not have to. Re-read what Signal does (SR4A, page 222).


I understand what Signal does, Thank You. But it is pretty irrelevant to the discussion. smile.gif Sat Link is not available, as it is above DR 3 according to the Source.
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