Greetings fellow denizens of shady places.

I have played Shadowrun forever. It is a great game that has always had glaring faults in certain categories (matrix, adepts and cars. What is with the cars?). Nonetheless, I have had a wonderful time playing it over the years. I have also, in an eerie kind of parallel development, made house rules or storylines that have always later appeared in Shadowrun sourcebooks. This extends from the close proximity of the giant buildings of kowloon to the box damage system of 4th edition to world focus on Hong Kong as a new central city (instead of rather insignificant seattle). Hence the group nickname Shadow Prophet.

Currently, I am a mechanical engineer working in North Africa. As there are no geeks on this entire continent, I have written a very basic set of rules for a tentative 5th edition in order to use some of my geek energy. Upon termination of my current contract, I would be interested in writing this rulebook fulltime between two contracts in an official manner. Ergo, I would like to have a few long-time players to read and criticize my rules as well as point me to the people who are official representatives of whoever owns Shadowrun the tabletop RPG at the moment. Once the rules have been a bit polished by fellow players, I will present it to said contacts.

The only meat person I know for real on this board is Backgammon. He and another friend called Jolly used to play with me every week so he can vouch for everything I said. He will also probably be part of the critics for my work as Jolly disapeared from the face of the earth.

Here is the plan:

I will recruit 4 or 5 volunteers over the next two weeks to help me shape the work. Basic rules will be sent to them so they can read it over Christmas. In January, I would like to present the basic proposal.

Criteria:

They must have played 4th edition.
They must have played 3rd Edition and remember the rules a bit. Older editions are a bonus but really not essential (1st edition was a rules nightmare).
They must be walking rules encyclopedia as this will essentially be an ultrageek rulefest.
They must love reading rules. As this will be an ultrageek ruleorgy.
They must have time to suggest modifications and add constructive criticisms. Which means they have to explain why it is pure drek IF it is pure drek.

I await the hordes of volunteers eager to please their future master.

If anyone knows the method of contacting official representatives for a proposal, please let me know the procedure.

Thank you.

PS My internet connection is sketchy (africa) so please be patient.

This sounds interesting; however, I don't see a need for a new rules set, as the current 4th Edition rules cover things fairly well, in my opinion. Rules re-writes are usually only needed when glaring problems overshadow the mechanics of the game - I see no problem with your three examples of systems with "glaring faults."

I would love to volunteer to help any way I can, have played/GM'd every version from 2nd onwards am a compulsive reader of rules and background (owning pretty much every book ever written for shadowrun). I would like to get involved mainly to help shape a version (even if unofficial) as so far each version has had its problems, some bigger than others.

Look forward to hearing from you.

Also, as far as I know, Catalyst Game Labs has some ideas for 5th edition kicking around already, though I don't know if they got beyond just the idea stage.

I imagine they'd welcome applications for writing contributors, but I cannot see them allowing creative control to leave their hands.




-k

Generally interested but your criterias make me thing a lot about "Frankenrules". Honestly, there are two ways to make proper rules:
1. Start from scratch and build up a system.
2. Start from an existing system and enhance it.

Scratching rules together from two editions thats a sure way to failing project...
You will have no red line through your work just rules stiched together. (Lets take this, and thats cool and what about that. But I want....)


Just as a hint: If you really want to build a new rule system, start from scratch. Much better way to do it. Everybody knows some rules and you can read stuff up and steal stuff along the way if it should be fitting. BUT NEVER start off with this.

Start with general questions.
1)Generation and advancment
Shall the rules for character advancement be conservativ?
Should we use a buying , a level up or a getting better by using stuff-system?
2)Mechanics and dice
Several dice? Linear propabilities? How shall higher skills affect the probability? How shall attributes play into skilltests?
....Just some examples
If you got the core mechanics and your core principles for the rules you can build up from there.
If you stay true to those core desicions you will have a good shot at building a good system. But most projects can't do it. It is much harder than it sounds. Sometimes it means going agaisnt something everybody in the group wants.

Sometimes I think it would be a good idea to get somebody on board who does not know the system at all, but knows about building "systems" in general...
(Best would probably be if this guy doesn't know about RPG at all...)

Agreed. A lot of issues that crop up with SR4 are because they copy-pasted old rules instead of finding a new way to implement the ideas (cyberware and spells, especially). Trying to change too much with the fluff (everything is wireless and easy to hack) wasn't the best idea either.

Rewrite rules, keep ideas. Noth the other way around.

That's such a lie! I mean, I went to college with an ex-Jew mechanical engineer avid game and anime freak!

I assume he's still in North America somewhere. Afterall, his end-goal was to design and build weapons for the US military.

Then there's Jim, but I think he was abducted by [redacted for security reasons].

In any case, I wish you luck. Take the advice presented here and also realize that you're not likely to get permission to do anything official (the legal tangle that the Shadowrun IP is in is just a mess, plus I don't think Catalyst would appreciate the competition). But you're certainly welcome to create a system that you have rights over and put it out there as a "this is intended to be used with..." but doesn't actually contain any infringing material.

At the same time 3ed had the issue of feeling terribly outdated (I got a 100mb hard drive in my head!) Which makes painting a picture of a bleak future way less credible. It's handled rather well fluff wise and makes an awful lot more sense then continuing to enforce a vision of cyberspace written 15 years before there was a cyberspace.

On the other hand, the rules present a world where there is no such thing as "closed circuit." Even things with no Signal can be hacked wirelessly, even things that have no reason to be wireless (like cyberlimbs).

There's dystopia, and then there's dystopia. Being able to hack a "closed circuit" security camera from down the street by bouncing your signal off the RFID tags in people's underwear is retarded. I'm all for corporations tracking what people do, but being unable to secure their...security devices because of it is dumb.

Ummmmm... North America does not equal North Africa. Just Sayin'

Wow. I misread that like four times. @..@

I blame the glare on my screen. >..>

(Hmm, now I wonder if I even know anyone IN Africa...Thailand, yes, Nepal, yes, New Zealand, yes, knew a guy who moved from Egypt...hmm...nope, I don't think I know anyone currently in Africa)

Ummm... They can keep their stuff secure by simply not using wireless. Just use that good old fashioned Wired Technology that still exists in a lot of places (they did not go and rip it out of the infrastructure, after all) for their really secure stuff like Security Systems and Things not meant to be on the Matrix. Easy Peasy and Done. *shrug*

Pretty sure there's several mentions of completely wireless disabled system that you need to be connected to physically to access...
I can see where you're coming from although, but atleast it's easily rectifiable at the table. (No, you must get access to the control room to hack the cameras).
But isn't that more of a flaw in the crunch rather then the fluff?

Remove Ambiguity.

Reward risks.

Rape spirits with a nerf bat.

Rewrite the matrix to make sense, and have clear guidelines and consequences for actions.

SR5D20?
*runs*

Kind of my point.
The wrote the fluff to be more modern, then failed in the crunch.

Break out the torches and pitchforks, boys! It's mobbin' time!

Oh boy! I always wanted to be in the mob!

Random attempt at explaining why it can be done: study of technomancers, particularly those with the Skinlink echo, reveals that even on a supposedly closed circuit, tech that is connected to a matrix-capable node is accessible from somewhere. Corps research ways to do this for mundane hackers and succeed. Some skilled shadowrunners with anarchist tendencies get to the paydata on that research and release it. Now every hack-capable commlink is equipped with tech to allow that (perhaps some hardware mod that became popular enough that some marketing guys began getting the engineers to include it from the factory, so that it could be a new feature for the iPhone 63. Then everybody copied that marketing idea).

Well, technically even TODAY with the right equipment you can pull signals off non-wireless electronics. At considerable ranges sometimes.




-k

Hell, my computer speakers will pick up the CB radio of some dumbfuck trucker on occasion. I'd love to beat the fuck out of him some day.

And basically ALL Speakers and even most head-phones will pick up the noise a cellphone makes shortly before receiving a text message . .

Pull signals off, I've seen, but not put signals back in.

Technomancers are one of those parts that needs to be edited out.

I find myself leaning more and more toward that position as time goes on.

Or if kept in, changed so that they aren't just a "mages but in the matrix" copy-paste...as the other discussion showed, it would be nice if they could be given more interesting powers, perhaps something more psionic-based...

RAAAAAAAAARGH NERD RAGE

Uh.

They aren't mage-copy-pasta. In fact, they'd be better if they were.
(Last I checked, mages didn't have to buy spells at increasing force values, it was buy-once, use-forever)

Frank had a very good point int that one of the systems in SR that works is magic. (Yeah it's over-powered..) and that moving technomancers to explicitly mirror mages would certainly be an improvement. The unstated problem is that all the computer and related rules in every edition of SR are a cesspool of poorly thought-out and worse edited rules, with a heaping pile of special case rules to try to patch the more gaping silliness, so nothing you can do for technos will do anything useful without a wholesale rethinking and re-conceptualization of the entire computer/hacking concept.

My main issue with technos isn't that they don't work mechanically, it's that the whole concept that a brain can produce and process an encrypted gigabit signal offends me at a very basic level. However they also don't work mechanically and if people want to keep them around they should mechanically work and work in a way that anyone picking up the rules the first time can understand.

my work here is done

Seriously though, I readily admitted in the other thread that they have a really "technological" slant. More powers that aren't so technological in nature would make them more interesting and unique...


Pretty damn close. Spirits/sprites, drain/fading, initiation/submersion, and the mirrored skills to go with all of that. And previous editions had mages buying spells at certain force values.

Yeah, technomancers are pure karma-sinks, even more than mages ... and generally less effective also.

You're outdated:

SR Savage Worlds...


*runs too*

*points at post-count*
i am old ._.

Jesus... It already starts in this thread.
Don't go: I want that and that and that and a pony.
First: MAKE THE BASIC RULES (in this case for the matrix)
If you can explain how the avarage house "works" you can go on and think about things like technomancers.

First Basics than the advanced hacking rules.

Easy. Wireless still exists, but due to self sealing stem bolts, you can't hack over it anymore.

And it was replaced for something simpler, wasn't it?
Did we not learn from past mistakes?

Anyway,



Very good advice. A friend and I are making a fairly simplistic territory control game, and he had these great ideas for how various factions would play, but no good ideas for how the core rules worked. We had to sit down and think "how does this game function on a basic level?" and get that working before we could really start addressing the "odd" factions that broke the mold in wildly different ways.

Mages cannot thread up a spell they don't have, either. But the point does still stand. They are pretty darn similar.

And I fail to see in problem with using an analogue ruleset instead of inventing the wheel twice. I mean everybody is free to run ranged combat, melee, and matrix combat with three different systems (all using different dice of course, anything else would just be C&P), but personally I'm rather happy with having one basic combat system that gets slightly adapted for each use.

I don't find this to be true in the least.

I agree... I see nothing wrong with how Technomancers were mechanically crunched up. I would like to see their powers expanded as the timeline progresses, and I expect they will be. *shrug*

Well, Technomancers are not as Versatile as a Mage is, for the most part, and they are pretty Karma Intensive, but not overly so in my opinion.

If you can handle their vitriol, The Gaming Den might be a place to run your ideas against a horde of geeks. Frank Trollmann posts regularly there and he still has his opinions about shadowrun rules.

-CJ

On the other hand it is Frank Trollmann.

Don't see that as a real Benefit, personally. *shrug*

Just wanted to point out that the OP will find some shadowrun expertise over there... and if he is "into" shadowrun history, Frank's name will most likely mean something to him.

-CJ

Edit: And besides, there are others too. Ancient History for example...

Perhaps a move to have the CFs be included in just being a TM (rating = some stat, like AI characters), but the options for characters existing in being able to start with echoes in a similar way to adept powers.

In a 5th edition, they really could just tighten up the rules--and be consistent with terminology. More examples would be a good idea as well. They also need to bring back concealbility ratings for weapons and armor and do something about stick and shock!!

And go back to variable TN's!
And the SR3 Damage/Armor System!
No more hugely inflated dicepools . .

No... Burn them in effigy, absolutely Hated variable TN's
Please No... Hated this also
Don't really care so much about the last one as we do not see hugely inflated dicepools at our Table... *shrug*

Variable TNs are awful. The probability tables are a mess and virtually nobody has an intuitive grasp as to what the chances of success are and what modifiers do to that chance of success.