This should be pretty easy.

Rules say that you can only "take aim" equal to half your relevant firearms skill. Sniper rifles using vision magnification must use a "take aim" action just to lock onto a target before they can shoot, but CAN take multiple "take aim" actions for the bonus.

For this example, we'll say my Longarms skill is 6.

I want to snipe someone with vision magnification. I may only use 3 "take aim" actions to accumulate the bonus associated with the action. Does the "take aim" action required by the vision magnification count as 1/3 of those actions? Or is it the bonus merely max out at half your skill, no matter how many "take aim" actions you use? (ie, I can take 100 "take aim" actions, but will never get more than +3, for my example.)

I think it is the latter

The rules support the former interpretation - it talks about how many sequential take aim actions you can take, rather than the bonus.

Not quite. With sniper rifles or any other form of image magnification, you need to use the take aim action to zoom in on the target (i.e. remove range penalties). You can always shoot without taking aim and incurring the appropriate range penalty.

The former is the case. The number of take aim actions, not the bonus, is limited to half the skill. Don't forget that DP modifiers do not raise that limit, but skill modifiers do.

Locking onto a target is described as a take aim action where instead of gaining +1 you ignore range penalties.
Edit: reread the rules, yes the maximum number of subsequent take aim actions you can take is ½ your skill

Purtty much.

so basically if you want to take aim to the maximum without zooming you'd have to spend the entire first IP aiming to get the +3 (1 free action, & 2 simple actions)

If you have Krav Maga. If you don't, then you spend 1 IP taking aim, the first action of the 2nd IP taking aim, and the 2nd action of the 2nd IP shooting. For the record, a mundane can take 4 take aim actions if ultra-specialized. Aptitude for 7 ranks in Longarms + a reflex recorder (it augments rather than provides a dice pool modifier) maxes your skill 8. An awakened character could get 5 take aim actions if they take aptitude (which would make the max skill 10).

Take Aim actions limited by skill is another reason why Hawkeye is good. You get your full potential take aim dice at short and medium range instead of just short and taking aim to eliminate penalties only gives a greater benefit at extreme range rather than long and extreme.

Get KravMaga and Adept Multitasking, then you can take 4 aim actions as long as you are not directly involved in combat (depending on your GM, a conceald sniper may not be directly involved)

Reflex recorder is a dicepool modifier isn't it? I don't think those apply to Take Aim.

Reflex Recorder was errataed to be a skill modifier (even in the SR4 errata 1.5 from Dec1, 2006)

The errata I'm reading for SR4 says "adds 1 to the rating". SR4A also says it adds to the rating. It is an augment, not a dice pool modifier.

By the same token wouldn't the same apply to improved ability modified skills?

The adept power? Yes. That's an augment to the skill rating.

Yes, sadly it was errataed to be a skill modifier, not a DP mod. Really kicked (dual-wielding) pistol adepts in the nuts.

Do you have a citation for this? Everything I've found says it increases the rating.

Original FanPro SR4 Core Rulebook, © 2005

Pistols 6 (Heavy Pistols +2) and Improved Ability (Pistols) 6 was really nice back then.

The errata from their site says the following about improved ability.



This is exactly what is written in SR4A.

Well, i already said that ... i was just remembering the old days when a gun adept could really shine.

So an adept with improved ability, aptitude and a reflex recorder (which explicitly states it stacks with everything) is really good at aiming
Able to reach +5 or +6 (Do you round up or down w. Imp ability?)

Improved Ability (at the maximum level) and Reflex Recorder do not stack, the max. combined bonus you can achieve from them is 3. Together with a natural skill of 7 (aptitude PQ), max. aiming is at 5. It is rounded down (p. 148, SR4A).

Why wouldn't they stack?
Oh yeah... Finally found the entry on modified skill ratings.
There's a scary amount of stuff in the 4A errata that's word for word what SR4 says. (3rd print)

Your max take aim is explicitly limited by your augmented maximum. For a skill who normally has a natural cap of 6, the max augmented rating is 9 which divided in half and rounded down permits 4 take aim actions. By taking aptitude, that raises your natural cap to 7 and your augmented cap to 10 which permits 5 take aim actions. If you can find a way to raise your natural cap to 8, then your augmented cap would be 12 and you could get six take aim actions.

Why is that Scary, exactly?

There's at least 4 printings of the core rulebook prior to the anniversary edition and at least 2 printings of the anniversary edition.

It's supposed to be an updated version and they have to errata it to say what the un-updated version says?

And yet, there were questions when it was just SR4, and there are still questions on the exact same thing (ie. not updated at all, in fact) in SR4A, even when they have pointed to it time and again. You find this surprising?

Haven't had a chance to sit down with 4a, it seem to go into detail about a lot of things that were brushed over in 4 although

The PDF I have of the first printing says Reflex Recorders are a +1 dice pool modifer. I'd have to check my hardcopy at home to see what that says and what printing it is.

My PDF copy and hardcopy of SR4A both say that Reflex Recorders increase the skill rating by 1.
The errata on Shadowrun's site says that Reflex Recorders increase the skill rating by 1.

It's the same thing with Improved Ability. Increases dice in the first printing but all the other sources that I have and know say it increases the rating.

There was, to the best of my knowledge, no situation with either of those where they started as dice pool modifier, switched to skill rating increase, and finally switched batch to dice pool modifier. If there is, then it happened between the print editions prior to SR4A or it was a difference between the limited edition/first print run of SR4A and later print runs.

Oh I was just refering to looking through the errata and finding that the errata'd stuff was often exactly what my SR4 (3rd print) said, I was mentioning it because the errata mentions modified skill ratings and it's word for word the same as my SR4 book.

So it would be either the 2nd or 3rd printing where it had its wording changed to reflect the errata. That's not unusual. The errata needs to maintain all changes, regardless of if they're been put into the latest printing since it needs to be compatible with all printings.

While this interpretation seems RAW, it will bring stupid results since people with a skillrating of 1 won't be able to use the vision magnification at all. That doesn't sound plausible.



I think this anternative use of the take aim action shouldn't have the same restrictions as the +1 Dicepool option. Otherwise you will get absurd results like the sniper losing his zoom as soon as he speaks 3 words.



Does anyone really play it like that? The sniper zooms in on the target, but may not tell his team that he is zoomed in on the target, since if he does, he automatically zooms out?

Seems perfectly plausible that a beginner (what rating 1 represents) Wouldn't know how to properly align and use a scope.


Using Image magnification states that you don't need to take any additional actions to maintain your lock unless your target moves. Specific rules overrides general rules.

Why would he need to? Just pipe the video feed from the scope to the teammates and they can see it live rather than relying on audible cues.

If some beginners wouldn't know how to use a scope, it would be ok. But all beginners, thats just ureallistic.
That might be even someone that has vision magnification in his cybereyes, and Pistols rating 4, Automatics rating 1, and Longarms rating 5 and Heavy weapons rating 3. He can use his vision magnification without problems with all pistols, rifles and heavy weapons, but when he tries it with an assault rifle he has suddenly forgotten how his own cybereyes work? That doesn't seem perfectly plausible to me.


Indeed.

You don't even lose the bonus if you shoot, as long as the target doesn't move. With that rule it makes even less sense to me, to add the image-magnification-take-aim-action to the maximum of sequential take-aim actions you can have. Because this take aim action doesn't even need to be sequential to the other take aim actions. With a skillrating of 6 you could use a a take aim action to zoom in on a parking car, shoot it, then take 3 sequential take aim actions to get 3 bonus dice, and when you shoot agian you would still profit from being zoomed in.

Sequential means one after the other. That's it.

So it would be "Image Magnification Take Aim", "Take Aim Bonus", "Take Aim Bonus" for someone with as kill rating of 6. Then they attack with a +2 dice bonus. Another action is taken (attacking) removing the "Take Aim Bonus" but not the effect of "Image Magnification Take Aim" (specific trump general). They can then take three "Take Aim Bonus" actions and attack with +3 while still having the Range penalty reduction. Of course, that's all dependent on the target NOT moving and thus disrupting the range increment bonus.

There's very little you can do once you've elected the take aim option to zoom in. You can't attack another target, that would be more than sufficient to consider that you have moved from the original target. You can't take any action that causes you to move. You could possibly swap ammo for your rifle. You could speak but you're pretty much limited to minor physical actions or mental actions

I thought that half of 1 rounded to 1.

Not if you round down, which take aim says you should.

The problem here is that "Take Aim +1 Bonus" is lost immediatly as soon as the take aim actions aren't sequential, but "Image Magnification Take Aim" doesn't care for that. You can comfortably eat some donuts while you are zoomed in on an unsuspeting target that sits in an cafe and drinks coffe.
Only the "Take Aim +1 Bonus" actions are penalized if not made sequential, so the "Image Magnification Take Aim" actions shouldn't count to the limit of sequential actions. Otherwise all stealthy snipers with skillrating 6 will do:
"Image Magnification Take Aim"(simple action), "Scratch Butt"(simple action), "Take Aim +1 Bonus"(simple action), "Take Aim +1 Bonus"(simple action), "Take Aim +1 Bonus"(simple action), "Shoot"(simple action), to get the maximum dice bonus.
While that woud be total RAW, it is unlogical to force a sniper to do a useless action between "Image Magnification Take Aim" and "Take Aim +1 Bonus", so you might just take the easy way and simply not count "Image Magnification Take Aim" to the maximum number of take aim actions.

1. The image magnification take aim action is penalized, it's just that there's a specific rule that negates that penalty.
2. The situations where a user can use image magnification and greater than a +1 take aim bonus are exceedingly far between. If it wasn't for krav maga, getting both benefits would be practically impossible in most situations where you would use it and even then, in most cases you're better off taking your two simple actions to attack the target twice rather or attack the target twice with +1 die on one attack (because you're at short range). Once you enter combat most people will end up moving and forcing you to retake the image magnification penalty each IP. The situations where it is even remotely an issue are practically narrowly defined and in most cases are going to be ambushing first strikes rather than in combat. These are practically cinematic anyway to the point that it shouldn't matter.
3. The rules are written as they are for extensibility (surprisingly). They don't exclude further types of Take Aim actions that provide bonuses and with a lack of a specific rule regarding that specific type of take aim action they would also count against the limit and be lost if another action is taken.
4. Take Aim for +1 die, unlike image magnification, are only lost if you take another action. Take Aims are also permitted to be strung over multiple IPs. Image magnification, since the benefit can be broken by people other than you, is actually the last take aim action you want to make (when combat has started) and you want to make it in the same IP that you make your attack. It makes vastly more sense when you look at it as +1/+1/Eliminate Range instead of Eliminate Range/+1/+1.

I was talking about ambush situations and not aiming during a shootout. I agree that aiming more than one simple action during a shootout that has already begun is waste.
That those situations are exceedingly far between is not true. One side ambushing the other side is rather 20% -30% of all fights. Depending on which type of campain you play it can be more often.
If you can neutralize all guards before one can set off the alarm is pretty important to the whole run, and shouldn't be handled "cinimatically" with GM arbitrariness.
I am usually one of the first to say that the "Combat Rules" aren't "Execution Rules", and they shouldn't be used without adjusting, when for example someone is holding a gun to the head of his hostage. But they are designed for ambushes and should be used there.
That a Sniper has do do a useless action to get the maximum bonus dice, and that someone with Longarm rating 1 and specialization Sniperrifles doesn't know how to use a scope although he was instructed on how that thing works, simply doesn't seem very RAI to me.
Why should zooming in on the target hinder you from further aiming anyway?
If you ask me, the rules seem much more plausible if you don't calculate the "zooming in action" to the maximum number of take aim actions.
"

I highly doubt that. I think they rather didn't see that calling the "zooming in action" a take aim action would add it into the limited number of sequential take aim action a character has. And keep charakters with a skillrating of 1 from using their vision magnification system at all. They do stuff like that all the time. Just look at the Materialization power. Do you play that RAW? At least in that case it's obvious.
Are there any new take aim actions in expansion books that I am missing?

Free/Simple/Complex actions are a function of an action phase, which is a function of combat. If you aren't in combat then Take Aim as a simple action is of questionable existence since time is not a factor. This is what I mean by cinematic. You still make rolls but the declaration of your simple/complex actions isn't needed. Basically, there's no reason that you cannot take your maximum take aim bonus and eliminate range modifiers if time permits it. That is the situation you would be running into for the majority of your 20-30%.



The rules are for resolving a surprise situations which include an ambush. They do not cover what preparatory actions you are permitted or denied taking prior to initiating combat.