Indeed...

Those take just as long. It takes a minimum of three extended tests to do anything, which is a minimum of three passes. By that time, the sammie has shot the other guy six times.

If we assume Firewall 4, and that he's after admin access, that's 10 hits. But let's be generous with the build and assume that the character is made for the purpose of being good at this specific thing to the exclusion of other hacking tasks. Hacking (Exploit) 6 ( + Exploit 6 + Codeslinger (Hack On the Fly) 2 + Commlink Optimization (Exploit) 1 + PUsHeD 1 + Neocortical Nanites 3 = 20 dice, for an expected 6.67 hits. Even with all that, it would take 2 passes JUST to break the firewall.

Which means that on the third pass, before he has a chance to actually do anything, the fight's over. It is not the same time scale - and this is assuming the incredibly unlikely scenario that he's got just as many passes to work with, which isn't gonna happen unless he's using VR, or is built as a combat hacker, with an emphasis on combat - in which case the above dice pool will be reduced by at least 6, and so he'll need 3 passes most of the time.



Spoofing? Complex to get an Access ID, Complex to Spoof. Still 2 passes. And therefore, rather than being the same time scale, it is at 2x the time scale of mages and melee character, and 4x the time scale of ranged characters. Jamming can be done in one Complex Action, but it barely does anything for you unless the enemy is woefully under-prepared.

Oh look, I was (more or less) right.

You do not need admin access to get through a door. User will work just fine. Hell, you do not need admin access for MOST things, as long as you do not care about your log file (which is often Admin only, or possibly not even on the same server). If you are anal about always going for Admin access, there is your problem. *shrug*

Not caring about the log file is a good way to get tracked down and killed.

Also, good luck turning off security cameras or unlocking doors as a User.

(Pro-tip: in a firefight, those Dudes who have Stuff you can hack to Mess With Them, their comlinks don't have User accounts, they only have Admin access. See: the rules)

Not if you change your AID every time you log in. Most effective way of defeating such things.
Users unlock doors all the time. In fact, probably 99.9% of doors are user enabled (and do not require any other access, otherwise nothing gets done in the facility you are in, since 99.9% of the time, only USERS are required), you just need the correct cardkey for the correct door.

Yes, Security Cameras need Security access, but that is STILL NOT Admin Access.

Protip: Who hacks comlinks in a firefight. That is just stupid. There are a lot more effective things the Hacker (or Decker if you prefer) can be doing. Especially if he prepared PRIOR to the infiltration by gaining access to the System first (which still takes less than 5 minutes of time in game). You know, like Deckers do. *shrug*

All I am hearing you say is reasons why something CANNOT be done, when in fact, there are always ways to accomplish the goal.

I think this....discussion...definitely highlights where the hacking rules need improvement. This User/Admin/Security? crap's gotta go. Too fiddly with what has what accounts, with what access restrictions. It's a bad attempt to graft real-world computer ideas onto the game.

I think that's what I said, and you said this:

And I stand by what I said.
You keep complaining that the Hacker is just so out of synch with what goes on around them, And it is just not true.
If you are trying to hack a comlink in combat, you are not doing it right, BECAUSE THERE ARE BETTER THINGS the Hacker can be doing. *shrug*

No worries, though. Guess we have plumbed the depths of the discussion, and are back to where we started.

To open the door without correct credentials, you better believe you need admin to override it. Though, that counts as a peripheral node.

More importantly, though, is the fact that we're talking about the time scales of actions in combat. How, precisely, does opening a door factor into that in general cases?

Was not my example, actually, was just responding.

The current discussion is on topic in that we're once again stuck at "What is broken in hacking?". The problems seem to stem from the game system attempting to model systems that were based on either real-world computers or complicated fictional systems that were meant to engender thought on real-world computers. Gameplay suffers from this, as the majority of hacking is done solo and tends to separate the hacker from the party. This is further aggravated by the time commitment of playing out hacking by RAW being significantly larger than the time commitment needed for the ENTIRE rest of the party. So much so that groups in previous editions, and possibly still, used to have the decker play a separate session to determine his results and then spliced those results into the story at the appropriate time when the rest of the party played their session.

It makes attempts to revamp the system inherently flawed. We need to scrap the system as written and start from scratch. They simply have too much complexity built in to streamline them down to the level that would make them functional again within the rest of the ruleset. This also brings forth the question "How powerful do hackers need to be?". Currently it feels like they can do far too much; this is most likely the reason players wish to play them. I put forth the idea that we didn't want them to be brought down to the level of D&D rogues previously, but perhaps that is precisely where we should be aiming them. Instead of treating them as a totally unique thing, maybe we should literally convert them into "wizards with technology" using programs instead of spells. Having drones instead of spirits.

Or perhaps I'm simply over/under thinking it. Probably explains why I'm not in game design.

Ergo:



To which you said:



Pick a position:

Either:
a) Hacking happens at combat speeds
b) Hackers do not hack in combat because it is too slow

These options are mutually exclusive.

Yes, precisely.

The problem is that hacking/decking/computer rules are a mishmash of ideas, combined with a large collection of "special cases" and virtually no play testing. The magic rules are an example of where the SR rules work fairly well, using that as the basis for a new system seems like a pretty good start.

You need an underlying model that everyone involved understands and can be used to anchor all the ideas. This can be a totally fictional concept worked out in a great deal of detail or based on a detailed real-world model. But it needs to be something that you can use to figure out how to represent any computer action someone might want to do in the game, so you need a logically consistent model. The answer "That doesn't work at all and you are wasting your time" is a perfectly reasonable answer if that is what the underlying model says should happen, so you don't have to accommodate every crazy idea that a PC comes up with.

Frank Trollman's "brain hacking" is an example. I happen to hate the underlying concept behind it, but the system is logically consistent and is essentially hacking using the magic system. There are a few other concepts you could use to redo the computer rules, that's just the one he choose.

Again, Hacking happens at combat speeds (and is in fact ludicrously fast). There are just better things to hack other than Comlinks during combat (to use someone else's example, which immediately comes to mind; hacking the door while you are being covered to facilitate your escape). If you are hacking Comlinks, you are doing it wrong. *shakes head*
Which I have said 3 TIMES now. *sheesh*

To be even more specific. In the years that SR4 has been out, I have NEVER hacked a Comlink IN COMBAT. Too many other things to do to worry about that crap.

Except that hacking doesn't happen at combat speeds. Sure it might use complex actions (same unit of time) but they're all EXTENDED TESTS.

Which fundamentally insures that hacking does not happen at the same speed.

You're wrong about that. Plain and simple.
Extended Tests happen all the time. Big Deal.
I have yet to have a problem with my Hacker keeping pace with the Gun Bunnies.
I understand that you hate the system, but that does not mean that it doesn't work. *shrug*.

And Like I said a few posts up... We are back full circle. This is no longer productive. So...

Could you provide some general case examples of combat speed hacking? To be clear, "hack the door so you can leave" is not a general case example, because it requires several specific things to be true that will not all be true in most cases.

...In combat?

Asking enough questions of the defender of hacking 'RAW works fine' usually reveals that the defender isn't actually using RAW...

Shooting someone or smashing his skull in is not an extended test. Even getting to him usually isn't. So in the time it takes a hacker to debuff someone, a sammy can kill him at least four times.
I fail to see why you keep arguing with the obvious.

80% of hacking is down out of combat or just pior to (if your Hackers/Technomancers are competent at least, and can mostly be resolved in 3 to 10 minutes of real time, as oppopsed to the hours of previous editions)... The Minimal 20% of hacking in combat is generally simple things; Finding Nodes (Security Peripheral mostly), Intercepting Traffic, Spoofing drones, doors and whatnot. However, Serios hacking in combat does indeed happen on occasion; especially when a facility is 100% inaccessible prior to the run (which does happen to us, though infrequently, and we generally take a differnt approach for such facilities anyways).

The problem that I see here is simple. You (generic) assume combats happen in 3 passes and then you are done. In my experience, that is patently false (Opposition is generally equal or superior to us on high end runs... Prime Runners after all). Average combat time for our Prime group is measured in minutes to tens of minutes of actual in-game time (Opposition takes the innovative options of actually taking cover and using tactics). The Weapons guys are doing their thing, while the Hackers and Technomancers are doing their thing. It all happens in tandem, and it all completes in combat speeds (ie. Pass by Pass, Turn by Turn). There are some actions that take Turns once initiated, and Hackers/Techno's can take other actions while they complete, while other actions are simple/complex, amazingly Just like the Combat monkeys.

We do use the Raw, with at least one Optional Rule (Skill+Attribute, Capped by Programs; which we have used for years). The nice thing is that the group knows the Hacking rules really well, and so hacking flows with a few seconds of description and a roll of the dice and we move on. If there are any questions, looking at the relevant ruling (which I keep annotated and bookmarked for just such a purpose) solves it at a glance. Full Disclosure: We have a Cyber-Logician (17 Dice) and Technomancer (15-22 Dice, Dependant upon Action and Sprite Availability) as prime Matrix Specialists, and 1-2 backup Hackers who are in the double digits (10-12 Dice) on the team if needed. Characters are 300+ Karma Prime Runners.

The current assumptions on my end have nothing to do with whether RAW is being used or not; at this point, if anything, my assumption is that there are tables out there that so overpower the opposition that the major combats ARE over in a few seconds (and thus Hacking is the drag on the action), fortunately, that is just not our table. *shrug*

In those situations where the opposition has been neutralized with no combat imminent, the Hackers/Technomancers have time on their side and the rolls are made "out of Combat" as it were, and take less time than most combats (average infiltration by Hacker takes from 3-10 Minutes of time (dice rolling and interaction) depending upon target system and sitiuations encountered while in the system). If off-screen hacking is taking you longer than that, I do not know what to tell you. *shrug*

Hopefully that clears a few things up. If not, I am not sure what Else I can Say on the topic.

Do you drop each of your opponents in a single attack Test? If not, it is an extended test. Simple as that.
And again, why is your Hacker Debuffing someone? I fail to see why you (again, generic) keep arguing this line of reasoning, since almost any competent opposition you will be going up against will be protected from Hacker Debuffing. There are better things the Hacker can be doing with his abilities.

A competent sam with decent equipment drops an average hacker not optimized for damage soaking in one or two simple actions, yes.
Also, I am glad you agree hacking is unusable in combat.

So Sam vs. Hacker... Got it. It must be Amazing that my Non-optimized for Damage-Soak Hacker (with 2 Edge) has been able to survive for so long (Yes, I go along for the Run, I do not do them Remote). Perhaps You are doing something wrong with your Hacker's then?
And I do not agree with you that Hacking is unuseable in Combat. Just so you are aware.
Nice try at putting words in my mouth, though. *shrug*

What do your hackers do in combat?

I guess there could be an enemy hacker trying to debuff your team, then the hacker has to do counter hacking.

But I'm not buying that hackers stand toe to toe time wise, with the rest of the team. We should construct a mini scenario and see how it goes, but once alarms start going off and the drek hits the fan the hacker slows to a crawl and everyone else murders everything then are on mop up duty waiting for the hacker to still finish hacking.

I know everyone complains about Matrix Security being too weak, but its actually pretty brutal if you break out all the rules to counter the hacker. Like terminate connection. With the Lucky scenario, it'd only take 3 turns to kick Lucky from the node if he was discovered. Firewall (3) + System (3) + alert (4) so the node is rolling 10 dice waiting to hit Lucky's exploit program (5) + account access (4), so the threshold is only 9. And that's not even counting if IC was launched, where the node gets even more bonuses. And then Lucky would have to race against the clock of having his connection terminated while dealing with cybercombat from IC and spiders, while still needing to find the paydata or decrypt or open a door, or whatever.

There is a certain difference between arguments that go "all hackers take much longer to achieve meaningful results in combat than sammies" and those that go "my hacker has somehow been doing fine". Like, for example, one of these two is anecdotal and thus means nothing to deny a ruleset issue.

This is true, to a degree, yet, it is not just MY hackers, but other players at our table as well. *shrug*
Though I have admitted that our table may be atypical in that regard on more than one occasion.

Ummm. Terminate Connection is not an Extended Test. It is a Single Complex Test initiated by the System ARC Protocol, or a Complex Test if initiated by the System Spider. It either succeeds or it doesn't. They can keep trying, to be sure, but it is not extended. *shrug*

Like fights that last for scores of combat turns? Umm, yeah, that's very different.

When you have running Fights, how long do they take for your table?

Scores of combat turns is not that long... 1 Score of Turns = 1 Minute. This is not a long time. Especially when you are under fire. Clean out a pocket of resistance, and then you move; may take a few minutes of movement and then Bang, hit another pocket of resistance. Rinse and repeat. If you are clearing a Zero Zone in 5 Turns, you are doing it wrong. *shrug*

In other words, you are likely to be in and out of combat multiple times within a single combat scenario. Saying otherwise is disengenuous. I just do not hide that fact that an encounter is not ONLY 2 passes in a turn (it is a series of encounters, often much more than just one), like I have heard others indicate. That is just not true, and they know it. *shrug*

If they ARE saying their combats last only 2 seconds, then I don't know what to say about that other than to suggest that their GM look at actually constructing a combat scenario that makes some internal sense.

That's a red herring. You're not arguing anything useful.

Yes, decking uses the same IP sequence as regular combat. That doesn't mean it uses the same time frame, where things happen at the same rate. Hacking a door, as you point out, doesn't usually happen in combat *because* the actions involved are usually not resolved in a single IP. In other words, combat decking is pretty much useless-- or, as you'd put it, there are more valuable things for them to do, such as shooting back.

That is becasue it was not an argument, it was a statement. *shrug*

Oh I see. Man, the rules need to be rewritten slightly to make it clearer. Everything seems like an extended test in the Matrix. I thought it looked like an extended test that could be done once a combat turn.

No worries...
I think a big part of a lot of people's issues with the Matrix is that the rules are somewhat unclear. I agree they could use some cleaning up in the descriptives.

Wait, it is an extended test.


*edit* this is wrong.

I'm shocked, simply shocked at this turn of events.

Waa waa waaaaa

Ummm, No...



Looks like you have an older version of the PDF.
In all 3 of my Hard Copies (Including the Precious), as well as the most up-to-date PDF I have, it is as above.

I guess you're right. I just double checked my hard copy. I should have just done that in the first place, but it lacks the ease of search.

Firewall + System + alarm + IC vs Hacking + Exploit + account

Sounds extremely dangerous still...

No Worries...
And Yes, it is extrememly dangerous. My hackers have their ARC set to Terminate Connection first, as it is a good option; and since my primary Cyberlogician has 4 IC in his home node, well, it is likely to work every time.

That would be me. Time to fix my old root server. Will be up next day or so.

Edit: Well, actually now.

I have some comments.

In my experience, the better you are the less likely the opposition will be superior or equal to you. Therefore for Prime Runners, even in high end runs, you should outclass whatever "superior" opposition. Opposition is supposed to be superior or equal to normal professional runners or even the lower end Prime Runners, but the talent pool of people that are really really good at something shrinks fast the better they are supposed to be. So combat against Red Sams/Wildcats/Tir Ghosts are usually over one way or another in 2-3 passes. If you define a combat as a series of such engagements, then yes, "combat" lasts longer, but each individual engagement is finished pretty quickly.

Thus, it has been my experience that major combat is over in less than half a minute and hacking during combat can be a drag on the action.

As a point, remember that at our table, 15 Dice is really, really good, and even the Tir Ghosts have more than that in their combat skills. Not that we have not seen characters at our table approach 20 Dice in combat skills, because we have, but we tend to have upper functional limits of less than 20 dice.

For example... My Cyberlogician... 15-18 Dice in Hacking Skills (Attribute + Skill Optional Rule), COmbat SKills between 12 and 16 Dice. Many secondary and tertiary skills at 10-14 Dice. He is exceptionally skilled (88 Skills Total), and yes, even High End Security/Tir Ghosts/Paladins are more than a match for him, when in numbers. I understand that at many tables, such a character would be well into the mid 20's DP for his specialties after the 350 Karma he has received.

In my experience, the game breaks down heavily when your Table DP's out perform your opposition's DP's consistently (generally seen when table DP's are over 20). Now, there are some skills where having a DP of 20-25 is not a bad thing (Perception comes to mind), but they are few and far between. I prefer a table where the level of Superiority is by a few dice or so. It is not a forgone conclusion as to the outcome. Another note, most of our starting characters hit the 10-12 DP mark in primary focus skills.

In some instances, Prime Runners will outclass the opposition (and very occasionally, that is a fun time), but that should also be a rarity, unless you are creating your own runs. A Johnson offerred run should always be a challenge to your capabilities. Once it stops being a challenge, well...

Also... In my experience, Hacking during combat is often a necessity, we just are not hacking the oppositions cyberware or smartlinks. We have other targets to worry about (like the unexpected remote guns, door access, etc.). It is not the Hacker/Deckers job to worry about the Human opposition, that is why the others are there.

I still can't see how a combat might last hundreds of turns when two to three bursts (taking about three second total) are enough to kill anyone not specifically optimized to soak damage, and a couple of spells (one and a half seconds) is enough to neutralize the rest of them.

When your opposition is good, and they make use of such trivial things as Cover, combats tend to last a lot longer. *shrug*
Having performed building clearing in actual combat, I can GUARANTEE you that it takes much longer than 3 seconds to do your job, especially if you are going against equivalent opposition (who have the advantage of being on their home ground). Game mechanics notwithstanding. *shrug*

It has been my experience that those who have blazing fast combat encounters do tend to metagame a bit (why take cover? My armor can take it... etc.).

AS I said, our table is obviously different. Which is often pointed out to me.

Which puts it firmly back in the GM's job to adequately describe the situation and put stuff in place either to enhance the realism or to challenge the decker.

otherwise the scenario does not match up to reality nor does it keep the others suitably occupied while the Decker ... Decks stuff.

this is not a complaint against the system or GM's in general, but having GM'ed various systems you have to admit it's hard work to keep everyone occupied / interested ALL the time.

TJ-I agree with you for the most part. Hacking also means you can take over the guys drones/ cameras, etc, etc. It may take a couple of IP's to do so, but is not impossible. Even better should you take over the other guys comms.


Clearing buildings is not what I'd expect runners to do, I expect them to get in, do their job (whatever that might be) and get out. You start having the opposition take cover, dodge, call for reinforcements, then the clock starts ticking until the HTRT shows up. And you can bet they've got what ever intel they have and back doors to the system. Hackers are an integral part of any runner group, but many groups try to avoid them because the rules and options are significant burden on both the GM and the players. The key thing for the GM is to learn the rules!

Yes, Exactly.
It is indeed hard to keep everyone interested 100% of the time.