A curious potential option we discovered, testing possibilities in the Infiltration Challenge:

I would allow this concidering the penalities involved, up to and including magic loss. If the player feels that it's within the character's psyche to be able to accept and deal with these losses then I'd say it could happen. Add on a flaw or geas if you feel you need to. A good Phobia of FAB could be applicable or perhaps to offset magic loss the player cannot have projected within 12 hours of the spellcasting to have their geased magic point.

Couldn't this also be used to find a misplaced meatbod?

I thought they wouldn't have to deal with magic loss unless this was astral combat or they knocked themselves all the way up to deadly physical?

True, but if you're disrupting yourself then you're casting what has the potential to be a deadly stunbolt which would have not only the stun damage from the 'bolt but the physical drain for being astral. If you don't soak the drain, then you might have magic loss.

Just cast any Deadly drain force spell instead, and don't resist it. As far as I know, you're always free to pass on a Resistance Test.

Drain on the astral is physical damage. We're trying to get knocked out without dying.

Teach your ally spirit Stunbolt then, and don't resist it when you ask it to cast it on you.

What about the idea of tasering the meat body? Stun them back into their body as it were.

EDIT: The above idea wasn't mine, it came from the infiltration thread in question. However it was an idea that just seemed to drop out of the thread, or maybe they are just going to wait for a few hours to see if budy returns to his meat body before starting up a regimine of electro-shock treatment.

I know that the GM (in that thread) ruled that the Stunbolt didn't snap you back to your body before the drain, ergo the drain would be physical. Not that it would really matter because you'd already be up to deadly stun so even if the drain was stun it would overflow into physical.

Agreed. For the sake of semantics, it should be physical drain, since the mana to cast the spell was being channeled through your astral form.
I like that idea of stunning the mage's body, though. Or even use a chemical tranquilizer, to minimize the chance of staging accidentally killing him. Excellent idea.

The meat body taking damage isn't part of the loophole. The loophole only occurs if the astral form takes Stun damage directly, and is thus disrupted.

However, after reading the rules, there's no way whatsoever to avoid a Magic Loss test when disrupted. It's an inherent "flaw" with the technique.

The language of the rules is somewhat vague. I know you'll argue otherwise, and i'd likely rule for a magic loss check myself, but frankly on the text alone it could go either way.

As for the meat body, what does happen then when the meat body takes 10 boxes of stun damage? If the projector isn't knocked unconcious that presents quite a "loophole" itself.

Yeah, I see how this is vague.

Personally I have always liked the idea that a person can get trapped in astral space and die. It seems cheesy to me that a mage can disrupt themselves and escape. Its very similar to dump shock, but far more serious.

It would seem, per strict canon, that stun damage received through astral combat disrupts ... and sends the astral form back to the body. In that case, checking for Magic loss would be mandatory.

Potentially, this would seem to have several potentially security-breaking applications:

• instant escape "through" astral barriers/wards/FAB
• instant escape from an astral situation which could not otherwise be "outrun" (ie. caught by a dragon)
• instant escape "through" earth, with no possibility of becoming lost
• automatic return to a moved meat body
• standard operating procedure: "If the magician is not back in the meat body by 5:59, stun it"

Thus associated questions are raised, which are not as clearly answered through strict canon:

1. Does disruption always result in immediate return to the meat body, regardless of the cause of disruption? (What other canon causes are there?)
   
2. Do these disruption rules apply regardless of how stun damage is caused to the astral form?
   
3. Does it matter whether stun damage is caused to the astral form or to the meat body? (Can that distinction even be made?)
   
4. Would a check for Magic loss be standard in any case of disruption, regardless of how it is caused?

That is a very good summation of the question.

The quote is from p. 176 in the main book, so you can go there for context, but that's essentially the whole paragraph. It seems the immediate snapback effect means you go through wards and even the living earth when you need to, almost like you bypass astral space completely or something.

To answer those questions, look to that quote:
1. Yes.
2. Yes
3. It only works on the astral form suffering deadly stun. There's no real rules on what you can do to the meat body, and how it affects the astral form, other than that on page 173: "You know instantly if it [your body] suffers any damage, but are otherwise unaware of what happens to your body while you're 'out'."
4. This is what the rules are unclear on. ACL highlighted the relevant parts. Notice the first sentence implies disruption always occurs, regardless of how the Stun damage was obtained. However, the last sentence--the one specifying a check for Magic loss--only applies "in astral combat." Talia has ruled that this is just an artifact, and that all disruption should cause a check for magic loss, which I agree with. The letter of the rules seems to imply otherwise though.

We have played for years that disrupting yourself is the "well known" technique for getting back to your body, and requires a Test for Magic Loss. (Previous Discussion)

We've not pondered whether giving 10 boxes of stun to the Meat Body could be used as a "technique" by the people guarding your body, but I believe it would work, based on the following line:

If your body dies, there is no place for your form to be disrupted to so it just sort of hangs. Like Windows.

I'd say taser to the gut KOs the mage, but deadly damage to the meatbod severs the connection thus the mage is still flying around on the astral. It's not perfect but it's a way.

I would rule that tasering the body would not bring the mage back. seeing as the meat body is theoreticly unconscious. as for casting stunbolt on your self i would prob require some sort of willpower test to represent the building up the guts to actually do it. plus u have to consider if the character in question is a shaman and consider the consequences with the totem.

I don't do much astral projection, can some one tell me what does cause stun damage in astral space. If the mage stunbolts himself it is physical. What if he just moved at top speed intot eh FAB wall, like a sam running head long into a real wall? I mean in astral space I don't remember rules saying you hae get up soem rinning room to get to top speed, basically you go from stop top mach 1 in a blink.

now i cant remember and i dont have my books handy. but i think that when u summon a spirit u have a telepathic link with it.. as long as your in its domain... so u could summon a weak spirit to scout for traps so that u dont fall in to them.. how ever if u are unable to be in that domain u would have to summon a great form spirit.. not sure how that would work for a elemental tho since once its gone a certin distance to do a remote service its gone. but then again i could be completely wrong on this.

Thanks OurTeam, like I said I don't do much astral travel, well more accurately I haven't done much fighting astrally. I have done 3 quests total in 13 years. That is why my l;atest character is a Snake shaman, I just wanted to test a field I have yet to master in SR.

I was thinking about this earlier today...I was thinking you could slam your head into an astral barrier until you hit D stun .

The risk of magic loss sucks...but it's better than dying.

Can a physical spell (as opposed to mana) affect an astral target?

On the astral: I believe so. I'm not aware of rules saying that a spell had to be mana on the astral. Casting a physical spell, though, begs the question why?

There was the old grounding rules (which were...lacking in definition) from 2nd ed. Basically, a physical spell could be cast on a dual natured subject, e.g. an active focus or what have you, and therefore take on an effect in the physical world. Check out the posts dealing with Bernie in Awakenings or the spontaneous combustion of a runner's mage in NAGTRL.

The main thing is that you're on the same wavelength as your target. You have to be astral or be perceiving astrally in order to lob the spell at an astral target. You have to be in the flesh to do it on the physical plane.

Don

Physical Spells cannot affect Astral Forms.

Or, I'm wrong. Arrr. 4 more months til I get my books back.

Don

There seems to be some confusion. I´m confused at least. Do astral forms really suffer damage from moving at high speeds into a barrier. I don´t think so. My notion is that someone or something has to intentionally cause harm to an astral form in order to hurt it (as with the "willpower-melee-struggle" with spirits).

I´ve always liked the idea that an astrally projecting character gets a warning feeling that the meatbod is under attack. Then has to zoom back to it, maybe even search for it, in order to do something about it. Of course this is still true even if 10 boxes of stun to the meatbod disrupts the astral form... Ok i buy that. It sort of makes sense that the pals would use tasers to shock the mage back to his/her body. But in that case there has to be some way to prevent this. There has to be an astral trap or something that is so nasty that none of the "loopholes" apply.


>edit< Wait a minute. Think about this for a minute: A person who´s in a coma has a deadly stun, right? I don´t know, coma is a result of deadly physical damage, but it makes sense that you would have a deadly stun as well, since your uncontious. Well, do we really whant to eliminate the posibility that an astral form could be aware, even travel outside the body while it´s in a coma? I meen, that´s one of the most prevailing myths regarding astral travel there is.

Okay, both coma and the use of booze and other drugs would probably give you stun damage, but I always interpreted that as not being /stun damage per se/, it's just that that's the easiest way to handle it in the rules.

Bumping this old, old thread as a reference for a similarly old thread.