So Granite Shell gives you 3/3 Hardened Armor, and it counts as worn armor, per the Armor and Encumbrance rules.

Helmets and shields do not count as worn armor, but modify the rating of worn armor, which Granite Shell counts as. By RAW, it seems that having the Granite Shell quality, carrying a Ballistic Shield, and wearing any of the +2/+2 helmet varieties would give you a modified Hardened Armor of 11/9.

Not sure if intended... but I'm having a hard time arguing against it based purely on RAW.

~Umi

........ew

Let's take it further. Dual-wield ballistic shields and you get 17/13 Hardened Armor.

Next, push it to the logical extreme. Add some Shiva Arms. Sextupal-wield ballistic shields for 29/21 Hardened Armor.

...of course, you suffer -6 to all actions, plus encumbrance modifiers, but hey! You're nigh invulnerable to physical damage! Just mind those stunbolts...

~Umi

You can take Shiva Arms twice to have six shields.
Toss an Armor spell over to get it right )

To be fair... A big hulking guy with rock skin and a bunch of shields sound kind of awesome... Like a one man tortoise formation

You'd need a Body of 15 to avoid encumbrance, though...

Or 14, if you discard the helmet.

~Umi

Only the 3 points would count as Hardened.

I also read it as incompatible with worn armor, not "counting as worn armor". So, the character would have to choose either Granite Skin or their Armor not both.

If you have Hardened Armor, the question becomes can you modify that armor? There aren't any actual rules covering if you can or cannot modify Hardened Armor, so it's historically been left up to GM fiat, with two major camps on either sides of the interpretation spectrum. The above argument attempts to cope with this difficulty by invoking other, related rules.

Granite Shell counts for "Armor and Encumbrance". Okay, so what does that mean?

Well, for one thing, it means that Granite Shell isn't just ignored when calculating encumbrance. If you could wear a suit of armor on top of Granite Shell (which you can't), you'd combine the armor values of the Worn Armor + the Granite Shell, and then calculate your encumbrance off of the total value.

But you can't wear other armor on top of Granite Shell. So why is the encumbrance factor mentioned? Because you can still wear shields or helmets, as they do not count as worn armor, instead modifying your armor rating directly.

If you are naked, but holding a shield, your "worn armor rating" is still modified, even though you don't have any "worn" armor on your body. Your own natural armor of 0/0 is modified to 6/4 by a ballistic shield. Likewise, with Granite Shell, you own natural 3/3 armor is modified to 9/7 with that same ballistic shield. You're modifying the body's natural armor rating in each case. And please note that in the ruling for Granite Shell it doesn't say to treat it "as 3/3 Hardened Armor", but rather "as 3/3 armor that counts as Hardened Armor". Carrying a shield modifies it to 9/7 armor that counts as Hardened Armor.

~Umi

Oh wow. Excellent.

Question, though - I haven't been able to find a real answer.

How does granite shell and bonus non-worn armor(ie dermal deposits) interact with armor penetration?
Which 'armor' is penetrated first?

For example, does a DV3AP-1 attack automatically bounce off of granite+dermal/troll or not?

I cannot believe that this was intended. My ruling would be that, first, Granite Shell does not count toward Encumbrance; second, that its armor value is not additive with worn armor, including helmets and shields; and third, its hardening always applies, i.e., any attack that doesn't do at least 4 damage is ignored. Throw on an armored jacket, you get the jacket's 8/6 armor, of which 3/3 is hardened. Wear a helmet with it, you have 10/8, of which 3/3 is hardened. In mufti, you just get your 3/3 hardened.

Whether if was intended? Who can say. Whether it's supported by RAW? I think I've found a way that it is, sadly.

I don't agree with your ruling it not counting toward Encumbrance, since it goes out of it's way to specifically state that it does.

~Umi

Umi--

My reading of the Hardened Armor Power (RW p 212) is that the Rating of the Hardened Armor is compared against the DV of the attack after Armor Penetration. If the DV is less than the Rating, it bounces off harmlessly. If it exceeds, then the Hardened Armor provides Ballistic and Impact armor equal to the Rating.

A Ballistic shield modifies the Ballistic and Impact armor ratings, it does not modify the Hardened Armor rating. Therefore, someone with Granite Skin carrying a Ballistic Shield would have 9 Ballistic and 7 Impact armor but the attack would only bounce off harmlessly if the DV is less than 3.

If you find something that specifically states that a Ballistic Shield modifies the Hardened Armor rating, please post a quote.


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Re: Incompatible with Worn Armor, but counts for Encumbrance -- The armor rating does not stack and would be replaced by armor. So wearing an armored Jacket would give 8/6 armor, 3 points Hardened, and an encumbrance of 11/9.

My reasoning on Granite Shell not counting toward encumbrance is that you can't be encumbered by your own skin. YMMV, of course.

Unless your skin is rock hard and inflexible. If you've ever had a joint lock up, you'll know how hard it can be to move with an inflexible limb.

~Umi

Never mind, should have read all the answers before asking.

It can't be inflexible at the joints, otherwise the character wouldn't be able to move at all.

I think the lesson we can all take away from this and several other threads I've made recently is that Runner's Companion wasn't thought through enough and has terrible rules wording. Especially the Changelings.

~Umi

On this point, we agree.

Eeeup. Have to say that Granite Shell is one of the worst PQs I've ever seen, at least without shield spam.

I guess none of the freelancer is a lawyer, and/or CGL doesn't want the rules to take ten times more space to make sure RAW=RAI.

Granite Shell + Shield should not make more armor, all of which is hardened.

In any case:

3/3 hardened armor is worse than useless. Find me something that does only 2 DV worth of damage (3, after including the net hit it takes to hit).

Standard Unarmed Combat, Strength 4. Base DV is 2, +1 for the Net Hit (total of 3 DV). Just like you asked.
Would have thought that one was obvious.

still makes it all but useless.
under SR3 rules you ignored all stun damage . .
so armor up and then convert damage to stun from armor and then ignore that would make it usefull.
but maybe a bit overpowered . . but everything that deals enough damage to stay physical ignores the hardened aspect of armor . .

And how many people are complete retards who PUNCH a giant turtles unarmed?

In Shadowrun, you do what you have to do... If you are in the position where unarmed combat is your only option (and yes, it does happen), you roll the dice and hope you can overcome that damned armor.

That is no different than using Unarmed Combat against the SWAT guy with 12 points of Normal Armor, now is it?

Rational people run the fuck away in those situations.

Also, we're talking "dude with 4 strength (or less) punching a giant turtle" and getting only one success. Two? Overcomes the armor. Anyone who actually sticks around to perform this absurd action is going to do so because they have actual skill at unarmed combat, insuring 2 successes. Or possibly have a high strength stat. Like 6, 8, or 10.

Ergo, the 3 hardened armor is worthless. And in the case of granite shell, worse than not having it.
(3/3 hardened armor...or 10/8 normal? Hmmm...)

Maybe... Sometimes you cannot run. It also assumes that Turtle guy is getting no successes for defense. Lots of assumptions going on here.

As for the choice. Not compatible does not mean you cannot wear two sets of armor, just that you do not get any benefit for it (Any Worn armor supersedes the Grantie Shell, so why even bother getting Granite Shell; Unless that is the Concept you are going for since that is why you would actually have it), and is a huge detriment (Encumbrance) to do so.

Attacker rolls and gets 2 hits.
Turtle rolls Reaction, gets 1 hit.
Net 1 hit to the attacker, DV = 3
Turtle....doesn't roll defense because HE DOESN'T NEED TO.

Protip: this is why I asked about 3DV after NET hits.

Yes, but if Attacker rolls 8 hits and Turtle rolls 7 hits, that is different than your scenario.
YOU ALWAYS ROLL DEFENSE. You would be stupid to not do so...

Protip: Your Protips are pretty useless.

..and to make situation even worse, adding 3/3 granite skin to huge Changeling troll w/ extra Dermal deposit (Runner's Companion pg. 112)..

I think he meant you don't roll to soak damage, since it's hardened armor. It's what makes sense since he had already talked about rolling the defense roll.

The protip does makes sense, since I imagine he was trying to avoid all the debates about attack and defense rolls and only talk about damage and whether the hardened armor actually does anything for you once you have been hit.

Granite skin replaces the Trolls natural dermal deposits (as it is an incompatible metagenetic trait)

On topic, I've been playing around with Dermal skin in other to try and create a Goron, the selection of traits doesn't quite give me what I want though...

+1



+1

The various Dermal Alterations leave a lot to be desired. Especially since most of their benefits can be provided more easily and at a lesser cost via Adept powers or 'ware.

~Umi

Well... SURGE is (super)natural selection kind of... and magic tend to make natural selection it's bitch, so that seem to be in line.
Also... Would explain why there's no obsidimen around anymore... Well that and the blood magic and the life crystal being destroyed... and horrors.

There are no Obsidimen because of the Earthdawn rights issues.

~Umi

A thought on how to make granite skin more useful: change it to 3 damage reduction that can't be reduced. That means it has a niche, but is not flat-out better than being able to wear armor.

If one changes hardened armor to be perfect damage reduction, and alters spirits (er, Immunity) to have Hardened Armor equal to Force (instead of Force times 2) things are "fairly reasonable."

So . . more or less back to how SR3 did hardened armor and spirits? O.o

It has things to recommend it. Simplicity, for one. Also, I never did care much for the notion that Immunity to Normal Weapons translates to "better armor." Straight damage reduction is more thematically appropriate, IMO. Not sure about reducing it from 2(Force) to Force, though.

Reducing from 2Force to Force prevents the scaling from getting out of hand faster than the ability of a magician to summon a spirit. Force 6 is "pretty scary" already without having to deal with 12 automatic hits on the damage soak test. At only 6 auto-hits, it's "hard" but not impossible to hurt the spirit (it's going to be a lot of small wounds that bring it down).

Which turns the F6 from the "ok, I took 6 stun summoning it, the opposition can't hurt it, quick hide behind it" into "ok I took 6 stun summoning it, I hope it lasts long enough, let's get out of here!"

Can you combine Granite Skin with being a Drake for a combined hardened armor of 7/7? that would be worthwhile. Add in being an Adept with 6 points of Mystic Armor for better resistance giving you 13/13 armor of which 7/7 is hardened.

Theoretically. It becomes "almost useful" (small arms fire will bounce off if you have good reaction)



How hardened armor and normal armor stacks is unclear.

I think the mostly accepted version is this:
Add Armor as usually, if Stun-Damage afterwards is smaller than the Hardened Armor ignore it. Otherwise roll as usual.

If stun damage is smaller than hardened armor, so would the regular damage be... Are you perhaps intending an armor roll first, then a comparison with hardened armor?

probably.
i ain't that firm in sr4

That'd be a better way to handle it, in my mind.

As written, Hardened Armor compares itself to the "Modified DV" of an attack, before it is further modified by the armor soak.

If it applied AFTER the soak roll, it'd both make more sense and be more useful.

~Umi