OK, I know by the topic description that I might get flamed, but this is just my curiosity.

I know that a mage must learn his spells and that the ones in the book are the powerful ones, but can a mage cast minor magics such as Chill or Clean without having to spend karma on them. My idea is that cantrips that don't really have a game effect such as Clean don't have to cost karma.

Clean cantrip just removes dirt (it does not remove physical evidence... to do that you need a Sterilize spell). Chill can make your drink cold. The effects would be really minor, but would add some flavor to mages.

As per rules, what you call cantrips would be low Force versions of spells, and they have to be learned as any other spell. There are a lot of situational spells that fall into cantrip category and, i believe, are rarely used at all.

Indeed... For example, your Clean Cantrip that you mention. If it can Clean the environment (removing dirt and grime), it willl ALSO clean any physical evidence (what do you think Dirt and grime are, after all?) just as easily. My version of the Clean Cantrip, which I have used extensively, is a Minor Force Sterilize spell (as Smirnov mentioned) or a Low Force Clean [Element] Spell of the appropriate type (assuming you have the right Clean Element already). I have also used a minor force Makeover spell designed for clothing and such. It works out wonderfully.

The moment someone told me you could use cantrips to clean up and shave... I never had a dirty mage after that... Well except the barbarian witch.

I personally would allow for a all-in one party tricks spell, and I'd expect my players to squeeze every ounce of creative use out of it.

That's why I specifically said in my OP that a Clean cantrip will NOT remove evidence. It's the difference between using soap and water and high strength bleach to get rid of blood.

It would be awesome to have a Shadowrun equivalent of Prestidigitation

Like I said, a spell like Prestidigitation would not have ANY game effect other than to make the mage's life a little easier. Using it to clean, for example, would NOT remove any evidence. Other than that I agree with you DamHawke. I called cantrips like Clean the "Domestic Tranquility" spells. It's just nice to be able to make yourself clean, shave, grow or cut your hair, chill your drink, etc, etc.

I don't even think it should count as a Spell that a mage has to learn. It's just minor tricks that a mage learns just by learning to be magical. The biggest thing to keep in mind is that it could create no in-game benefit.

Meh, just coat your apartment/stuff/self in SLIPS. Blood spray? No problem! Finger prints? None!

One of my players actually would use Ignite purely to light his suit-clad con-man face-mage's cigarettes.

~Umi

In an old issue of White Wolf Magazine they had cantrips for Shadowrun, can't rember which issue, and I can't be bothered to go down to my gaming room to look for the magazine.

Yes, and the shadowrun equivalent of a cantrip is to use a normal spell at very low force 1.


The thing which makes shadowrun magic so much different and interesting is it loses all these useless trappings. Magic has a price... drain... minor magical effects produce little to no drain... but the same spells/techniques to produce small ones you can use to produce large meaningful effects such as 'sterilize'.


Similarly other spells which are truly cosmetic in nature such as 'Healthy glow' or 'Fashion' are taken for flavor reasons and spice up some characters. Even if they aren't always optimal picks.


All the cantrip represents is an attempt at something for nothing. I want to do these effects without spending the karma for the appropriate spells or worrying about drain. (the minimum drain is always at least 1, so there's always a chance of taking some minor damage).

Falconer, I'm going to completely and utterly disagree with you on every point you have made.

First off, getting rid of the "useless trappings" in my mind diminishes magic in the Shadowrun universe. Cantrips are what I think make magic more "real world" than just a list of uber spells. Cantrips are what a mage would be using every day. A mage needs to shave, he uses a cantrip. He wants to freshen his breath, he uses a cantrip. His soda is warm, he uses a cantrip to chill it.

Second, while Healthy Glow may be just purely cosmetic, Fashion is most certainly very useful for a Shadowrunner. You're going to meet a Johnson, you use Fashion on the Face to ensure that his/her clothing is chic and professional. It can give a very good first impression. You can use Fashion to ensure that the security guard uniform that you just swiped FITS and doesn't look like it was made for someone else. It can allow you to change your clothing so that one gang doesn't try to kill you because you're wearing another gang's colors. Etc, Etc, Etc.

Third, I most certainly said in my opening post: "My idea is that cantrips that don't really have a game effect such as Clean don't have to cost karma." My idea is that if you use a cantrip and try to replicate another spell that had an in game effect such as removing evidence from a crime scene, then you will FAIL. You want to get rid of that blood/hair/skin sample, use Sterilize. I don't want mages to "get something for free".

A clean cantrip would like using soap and water. Useless to really remove evidence. Sterilize WILL remove those traces of blood.

I'd allow something like "Light (Cigarette)" or "Chill (Beer)" spell that can only be cast at force 1, and has drain of 2, and allow a character to only need 1bp or karma to take it. basicly say that since it's such a limited ad primitive understanding, they can't extrapolate that fire spell to a flame thrower... I'd only accept them on a case by case though.

Personally, I allow mages to use their known spells to make small effects "for free". For example, a mage who knows fireball can use it to light his cigarette without rolling the dice.

A friend of mine uses a houserule I like: spells are divided into "big spells" and "smaller spells". Big spells are the spells everyone always uses: levitation, heal, invisibility, etc. Smaller spells are the spells nobody ever takes because they're not as useful. For the cost of one "big spell" a mage can learn two "smaller spells".

In Style Over Substance (see link in sig.) I've added the idea of "demo version" of spells, that cost less karma (or event no karma) to learn, but don't do much (max force 1 and limitations). I've also added "day-to-day" spells, spells that aren't necessarily useful in runs but can be for regular SINners, and could be also interesting as "free" or "low-cost" spells.

@KCKitsune
You can't just mix magic systems like that. Casting a spell with caster level 10 does not require twice the spellslots compared to casting it with casterlevel 5. And thats only the start...
The effects of spells might be determined by the caster level but arn't always. And they are mostly capped at one point...
So Cantrips are usefull in DnD because you do not need the minor spell slots for anything else. Level 10 mage casting ray of frost? Well, won't scratch anything...
In Shadowrun your firebolt out of chargen is still usefull 500 Karma along the road...

You could play a previous edition and use the Karma reduction rules for learning spells to get Force 1 or 2 spells for 0 Karma. Although some GMs may not let it fly.

That is like saying that because a DnD character can cast a 7th level spell, it makes the 1st level spells he has useless and irrelevant. Which is complet and total garbage.

The reason I had the title of this thread as "Minor Magic Spells" is that I wanted to expand on fluff for mages. I wanted to have mages being more than just a Stunbolt Monkey. I wanted to have mages doing things like when meeting with a Johnson using a Chill Cantrip on his drink. I didn't want a "Get something for nothing" rule. I wanted a "Rule of Cool" fluff for mages.

I even said in my OP:


Does this sound like the call of a munchkin trying to break the game system?

No, it does not - and in our group I am working on a similar "flavor spell for less Karma" system.

SYL

KC,
Overall I like your idea of "minor" spells, things that do not affect the game directly but provide more "rule of cool" (though I don't think Mages really need anything more to make them attractive as characters). You however brought your idea to a place where the most vocal tend to be more about results than cool. Those people will decry the spells you propose as too powerful or game-breaking because that is how they themselves would try to use them. Please feel free to listen to them as well as those who do not think this sould be a problem, because they will bring up good points if you have players that are of the same mind-set.

There are those here who try to balance results with cool, and even those who slip to the cool side of the scale not worrying so much about results. In my opinion what you could do is allow existing spells to be used in a more rule-of-cool manner (like was suggested earlier in the thread), so using Fire Ball/bolt/touch to light a cigar, or Frost Ball/bolt/touch to chill a drink or some such. When used in this way you could simply state that the spell is cast at such a low force that there is no drain (or perhaps a drain value of 1S or 2S).

For your table if that will work for you and your players, have fun with it. If you want to introduce new cheap 1 karma spells that can only do those functions feel free, they should not be game breaking. Just try to make sure that your players understand that they should not try to make them game-breaking.

My 2¥
-D

DMiller:
The minimum drain on any spell no matter how low it's drain or minor it's effect is 1 (even a force 1 spell with a -4 drain code). The use of magic is never supposed to be 100% safe and without costs.

Overall this just strikes me as a DnD'ism. It doesn't fit SR4's system at all. Under earlier editions... You'd simply learn the spell at force 1 and be done with it. And there was a huge list of spells which didn't even need to be learned over force 1 because you didn't need the extra force for anything, that all the powergamers were well aware of. So that didn't necessarily make them 'cantrips' in any sense of the word most would know or understand. It was not uncommon in the least to see a force 1 'deadly' spell cast... simply because the mage's dice pool outnumbered the defenders soak pool so badly, and the mage would easily win the 'tug'o'war' on the damage staging.

Just an example of one of the old threads...
http://forums.dumpshock.com/lofiversion/in...php/t27424.html

Falconer,
You are right. However allowing a spell a little more leeway in its application (allowing a fire combat spell to light a cigar for example) is not game breaking. On the idea of drain, 1DV (or even 2DV) of drain could for the most part be removed with purchased successes on a drain resistance test (stress free situation). That's why I suggested a fixed drain value for special-effect uses of common spells. Lighting someone's cigar with a fireball special effect shouldn't cause 6DV of drain. Sure that Fireball when used to do damage to someone (at force 1 (lol)) should do that much drain, but not if used only as a special effect at least in my opinion. Opinions vary of course.

In our games we have always allowed visual effects to be created around/by magic users that can be used to "show-off" their ability. Not really illusions, but faint (or in some cases strong) glowing effects, or allowing the Shamanic Mask to show when not actually casting or summoning. To me this discussion is only a little more advanced than that.

-D

Nitpick: There is no spellbook, at least there does not have to be, and shadowrunners would be pretty stupid of having a log of all the spells they illegally know.

So how often do you see a character with the ability to cast grade 7 spells using grade one spells in a major confrontation?
Yeah, magic missle still works.
The point is, that the magic missle(Powerbolt) in Shadowrun may have the same BOOM as the meteor swarm(take elemental area effect of your choosing), if you just need to hit one target...

So what kind of level 10 mage would use ray of frost in combat while still have, for example magic missle or scorching ray or melfs acid arrow? (Yeah, one monster immune to magic missles and fire, acid with just 2 hitpoints....)

Yes, you can find strange examples, but as a matter of fact people tend to cast their spells starting with the higher grades in final encounters...

@KCKitsune

It is not about powergaming. My point is that spells are build differently in SR than they are in DnD.

You would need to introduce a whole new mechanic for spells. Thats a lot of efford for a bid of fluff. Of course, with mages beeing the best possible choice already I guess some peoble would frown at the possibility to make them even more "jack of all trades" with freebees...
But again, thats not the issue I wanted to address.

Now what is it, "useless" or "something for nothing"? You can hardly have both...

Anyway, I think the idea of "everyday spells" does not really fit the setting, as cool as it is. Magic is supposed to be a rare and difficult gift, therefore mages have a quite limited selection out of all possible spells and cannot extend it at will. Having small effects available for all Awakened should wait until another 1000 years into the mana cycle.
PS: Many traditions also attach some religious fuss to magic, and you don't pray to god or the ancestors for a cold beer...

Clearly you don't worship Broseidon, god of the Brocean.

~Umi

In some religions, you don't pray to god or the ancestors for the death of someone, but there still are combat spells in Shadowrun. You don't pray to god or the ancestors to make special effects in a movie, yet there are mages who use spells for that.

All spells won't fit all characters, but I don't see anything weird with some mages using their spells to make their daily lives easier.

Only Americans could think of a water deity when talking about beer

@Blade: I'm sure you will find special effects designers who pray that everything goes well, whereas people supplicating Him to descended from heaven in all his flaming glory to light a cigarette...

All the Time..., and not just Magic Missile.



It is not a Matter of Fact. It is a Matter of Choice. I almost always tend to go subtle instead of Overpowering, so I often use more Lower Level spells (to the option of actually using them in higher spell slots to have more of them). Not always, but more often than not. It also has an interesting effect on how you are perceived, as well. Refrain from casting your higher level spells, and people will tend to underestimate you. It is often a boon to be underestimated.



Or, you know, just cast a spell at Force 1 for a "Minor Effect" if you just want to make them common place, and don't want them having to create an entirely new spell. That will shunt that Drain to almost nothing. Or simply allow a Minor Effect at Force 0, for no drain and no roll required (Me, I just stick with Force 1). *shrug*

But no additional mechanics are required to represent that. Cast at Low Force and move along. Want to light a Cigar, use a Low Force Ignite Spell. *shrug*

Bah! Ask Odin for beer all you want, however if you know how to manipulate mana to such a degree that you can warp perception, throw great balls of fire and close wounds, you bloody well should be able to figure out how to sculpt it into party tricks.
*Puts on hermetic hat*
most magi sneeze more mana then it takes to light a fag, keep flavour to flavour.
and yes, I would allow players to great creative and abuse it, why?
Because McGuvyering is awesome.

If you know how to throw fireballs (i.e. have learned the spell), you should be able to light a BBQ, but depending on your tradition it might be considered inappropriate to waste your gift on such trivialities.
If you have not learned the spell, you should not be able to use a magic lighter, because that would make magic feel too common for this time of the mana cycle.

Actually, Odin would probably up for giving you a Beer, if you tip him well enough in Terms of Sacrifices . .
If it's worth the cost to you, have it your way.
And yes, Americans thinking of Water-God while talking about beer really fits *snickers*
Over here, it'd be something like Odin, a Warrior/King or at least a God of good Food.
Beer is liquid Bread, it's good for you

Actually it is funny, that the Order of the stick adressed the issue in todays episode...

I did not want to say, that everyone starts with Grade 9, then comes 8, than 7 etc.pp (Of course there are grade 2/3 spells, which are superior for some situations compared to grade 3++ spells.

So you probably won't use finger of death agaisnt undead or creatures with a high fortitude save. This might be a case where it would be better to use acid arrow.

The point is just that in general, higher level spells do more damage, are harder to resist etc. So it is probably better to use them in worthy encounters.
Something like that is not the case for SR. Spell is Spell. You decide the punch it packs.
If this would be true for DnD I guess nobody would move past magic missiles, often...

Oh come on, guys. I don't like America any more than anyone else, but they're not alone in crappy beer and citizens that purposefully seek it out. Give credit where credit is due, now.

America has bros. The UK has chavs. South Africa has zefs. I'm certain most countries have their own equivalents - young people with no money and a penchant for partying, so they buy as much of the least expensive swill they can find so they can all get sloshed on the cheap.

At least America doesn't have football hooliganism...

~Umi

Since When?
It is just a different Football, is all.

no it's not.
it's handegg.

*Puts on british aristocrat voice* Hep, hep I never understood why you good chaps over the sea needed to put on a full suit of armour to play a merry game of rugby.

Heh... well put.

The main reason so many people over here go for the crappy beer is because the crap-stuff is cheap and most of us are seriously underpaid. (Our Federal minimum wage is $7.25/hour with 'tip earning' jobs being $2.13/hour)

I don't know how bad people get over soccer over there in Europe, but people here get pretty darn crazy over our particular brand of football...it's more than a little ridiculous.


On Topic: For the most part, there wouldn't really be anything wrong with letting a magician toss a bit of mana around to keep his doss clean, chill his beverage or other such banal things. It's such a minor usage of mana that it shouldn't really be much of a drain even for the weakest of magicians and not at all overpowering, nor is it one of the "something for nothing" things because it's just daily life usage and as such not really suitable for any sort of in-game use (except possibly as 'coolness').

isn't this what buying hits is there for?
stuff you would not need to roll for?

on the other hand:
using a fireball to light up a fag is always a bad idea.
even at force 1 it will hit anything within 1m radius of the target point.

and overcoming the object resistance is another thing.
if the object resistance is 2 and you cast only a force 1 spell, nothing happens.

Dude, every time you use that term it makes me twitch. We use that word for something entirely different over here (it's a slur).

i am german

Yeah, it's just that over here it's a slur term used for homosexuals, and while some know how it's used over there in Europe, not everyone does (that I do know is why it only causes a slight twitch).

Which is why you use Ignite.

Context is everything.

It's a merry gay day to light some fags and hang out with the pofters

agreed, lighting up a fag with ignite is more like it. still needs to overcome the object resistance . .

Which is 2 at most, I would think. So a decent mage (Magic 3-5, Spellcasting 3-5; total 8.) should just be able to buy the necessary successes, using a Force 2 spell for 1 drain, and 1 combat turn (3 seconds) later fwoosh, lit cigarette. I'm tempted to give my next mage character ignite just for this reason.

edit: Holy grammar, Batman. All of my poor English teachers must be feeling a disturbance in the Force from that one.

What you need is a pipe, it's essential for the gentleman wizard.