Not needed... The suite operates as a single program.

Rating 1 Scan, Actually.

Rating 0 programs won't do you much good. And yes, the basic suites, as program suites, act as one program and hence, take up one slot.

Maybe I should rephrase it. Jack is now also Eliohan.

It's crazy, but Jack getting wierd began after the anonymous poster began showing up, and there's been a few hints that the anonymous guy might be Eliohan/Cerberus. It seems possible. I'd rather Fastjack is just getting old, because it's such a great end to his story. I'm just saying, if this is right, I called it.

As someone on the tail end of that "physical prime" of 25-27, I'd very much rather revert to 21 (or younger; hell, 17 should do) and retain more adult faculty.

... who couldn't so much as type on a cellphone before Transys played with his brain. Makes no sense, given that Jack was a top-end hacker (decker) with a long history of computer crime in 2050.


Hints? Where? The Editing-Error-to-Feature poster is a Dawkins operative.

I think what ggodo is implying is that Eliohan just did a (partial) mind possession on ol' Jack.

Brainhacks? That's more plausible. They'll be in 5E anyway.

you kidding me? brainhacks have been in the game in some form or other for quite a while. i never played 2nd edition, but i'm pretty sure a few of the published adventures from that time included the possibility (there was one that involved people using personafixes that were so powerful the users stopped being themselves while they ran the personafix... i could be wrong and that was SR3, but then again i could be wrong and that was SR1).

the PAB has been around at least since 3rd edition. and psychotropic IC has been around for quite a while too, i suspect since 1st edition actually.

brainhacks are nothing new. the only new thing would be calling it brainhacking.

Brainhacks are neither. Brainhacks are instantaneous hacks of the brain. Like hardware hacks in SR4, only it's the brain.

The only thing that comes close is a patient technomancer with a blackout CF who threads themselves a new psychotropic action every time they hit a victim (who probably is unconscous).

no, not really. the only difference is that the technomancer can choose a different hack each time. a regular hacker can brainhack in an instant as well. if you give said hacker sufficient resources to store a crudload of programs, the hacker can also change the hack each time.

this really isn't new.

also, i find it a bit silly that you're suddenly moving the goal posts around, "oh, brainhacks have to be instant, or they're not brainhacks".

ummm... sure. if you say so. [sarcasm] because nothing in hacking computers is *ever* an extended test, or takes hours to do. nope. nothing at all. absolutely not a single thing. definitely not hacking into a system, or trying to track down specific data, or anything else like that. [/sarcasm]

Sure, if you cluster 100 DR6 commlinks you might just do if you have half your programs with ergonomic options. That's about as plausible as a nuclear powered aircraft (which has never been built due to being an overexpensive and useless design). But anything to feel like you're right, right?


A hack CAN be instantaneous. Sure, you can probe and prod and if your target isn't moving and you need to re-establish connection every few seconds, you might do. That is not the nature of hacking as SR4 wants to present it; that would be brute force hacking without excessive probing.


So everything with an extended test is a hack, and everything else isn't?

Let's not be snarky.

PAB has been around since 1st Edition, as have Personafixes (Shadowbeat).

But that is not brainhacking. It's nothing someone can do to you just over the Matrix. PAB is a poor man's memory manipulation spell - it never worked as well, took hours and hours and required the victim physically present in the PAB machine. Similarily, personafixes hae to be physically present in someone's datajack (at least in 1-3, in 4 you might be able to run one in case you hack someone's commlink for an Admin account).

Neither is brain hacking as displayed in, say, Ghost in the shell.

And yet a Personafix is an instantaneous "Hack" when applied; it just requires access. *shrug*
Have to go back and watch Ghost in the Shell... Been a while.

If you bust open a computer case and take the HDD, you also got all the data on it. Doesn't make you a hacker.

With Ghost in the Shell, I am referring to the Standalone complex series; should have stated that clearer. The first season is all about brainhacks.

4th edition Personafixes, like all BTLs, can be administered over the Matrix as long as the subject has a sim module.

GitS has pretty much EVERYONE with cranial commlinks with sim modules.

Hm. Hack a guard's commlink, and if he has a sim module attached, upload "Hello New Friend" personafix. Nasty.




-k

Yup. Or thread the "new friend" option as a mancer.

Needs a HOTsim sim module, which is illegal and that most guards probably won't have.
It will work on hackers and chipheads but not on the majority of the population.

Technomancers can force people with no commlinks into hot-sim VR... Now imagine a TM running around hugging guards uploading "new friend" in the process...
*blinks*
Holy shit, I've invented the ultimate hippie

Yeah, though I hazard a guess that a number of regular folks you might run across modify their sim modules for "hot" use since it's easy to do.

Much like folks today jailbreak their smartphones for increased functionality.


There's reasons why folks fear Technomancers. And not all of those reasons are irrational.


-k

I'm going with sundowners. Although I suppose we'd have to check the timestamps on his out of character posts and compare the times. But really, at his age, with that much expose to the matrix and IC over the years, who knows what sort of number has been done on his brain?

Indeed...

Ahh... Have yet to watch that one. It is on my list. Thanks

Works for Mungo, and he's pretty awesome.

At least until the ice cream truck gets restocked.

That's what Mungo got his mooks for

I can think of at least two different type of brain hacks. There's direct brain hacks and there's virus based brain hacks.

if you want to change the entire personality, psychotropic IC is the wrong solution. it isn't the setting's fault that people in another series all have built-in hot-sim modules specifically so that somebody could write a story with lots of brain hacking via personafix. if anything, it's completely ridiculous to presume that everyone would go for that sort of thing.


the claim was made that if it wasn't instantaneous, it isn't a brainhack. it's not my problem that someone wanted to suddenly redefine brainhacking to exclude anything that takes more than a couple of actions.


of course not. hacking has absolutely nothing to do with how long it takes, which is exactly the point i was making.

i just find it silly that anyone would be like "oh, brainhacks are totally new to SR5" when they've been around basically since the setting began. i find it even more ridiculous that the attempt was made to suddenly change the goal posts and redefine brainhacking to only count if it's using minimal resources, doesn't take a lot of time, works on everyone indiscriminately regardless of equipment involved, and so forth.

brainhacking in some form or another has been around since SR1. in fact, extremely rapid complete personality replacement featured in one of those early shadowrun adventures i mentioned. complete with new skills and abilities, as i recall.

Brainhacking doesn't even make any sense unless you're talking about bypassing parts of the meat brain with some other data/processing store. Rewriting all the physical connections in the brain sounds pretty far-fetched, so you've got to be talking about someone with some implanted system for this to work.

Maybe he's got a piece of Deus in his wetware, and the AI's finally starting to assert control?

Your point being? You can just define "brainhack" as fits you because Shadowrun isn't as stupid as stupid Anime is? Sorry, that makes no sense.


Since you are doing it, of course it is.


Which they haven't unless you totally redefine the terms "brain hack", "hack" and probably "brain".


A personafix, yeah. Which relates to hacking as breaking open a computer physically and taking out the HDD does.

See, I would argue this point here. a Personafix IS indeed a Brain Hack. As is PAB programming. The fact that it takes a bit of time for the PAB Programming makes no nevermind. A Personafix is a fast hack, so to speak, since it overwrites the brain with its own programming while it is active. Personafix have the fun distinction of being easlily done beforehand.

ok, so explain what a brainhack is. good luck working out a definition for which none of the examples above qualify without you deliberately using very specific wording to specifically exclude the examples of brainhacking that exist in shadowrun.

it is possible, and has been for an extended period of time (since 1st edition, apparently), to use a machine to gain access to someone's mind and modify the information contained therein. it is likewise possible to use a machine to read information (extracting information is generally limited to the moment at which the device is connected, mind you, but that's what a simrig does). i mean, seriously, here's a line from the description of a PAB: "Programmable ASIST Biofeedback—as
the technique is known—is far more than traditional brainwashing;
it is the clinically precise reprogramming of a metahuman being."

what more do you want? a giant flashing neon sign complete with loudspeakers thundering at 120 decibels that it's brainhacking?

now, i have a hard time looking at that and seeing how that is somehow not brainhacking. but again, i'm curious to hear your definition that excludes the things we've mentioned.

Think I've found a good clue on what's going on.

Conversation between Puck and Jack (Clutch of Dragons, page 28)

Jack's either manifesting some technomancer like abilities, somehow is cohabitating with a technomancer e-ghost (late in life, yeah, I know), or he's been inside Mistuhama.

Puck says "at least a part of you does (know I'm right)", when he speaks of the Denver Data Haven/Nexus being in the pocket of Mitsuhama (he states that the Denver Matrix "tastes" of Mitsuhama output, and said that he was surprised that the Nexus hadn't done anything to do about it, but then again, that would require them to be independent)

That would be your problem then.


It being doable remotely, over the Matrix? But nah, that's not a brainhack, that's only a special case, because otheriwse Jaid could not argue on the internet.


Yeah. See Scott Schletz.

You have an awfully narrow specific definition of "brainhack" when it's more or less a made up word.




-k

i'm not saying being able to do it remotely makes it not brainhacking, any more than i ever said anything other than an extended test couldn't be regular hacking.

but just because you can't do it anywhere, anytime, with any equipment you feel like, on any target you feel like, doesn't make it not brainhacking. you hacked their brain.

can we agree that we mean something along the lines of this definition of hacking (as opposed to the kind of hacking which uses sharp or sharp-ish objects; that form of brainhacking has been around for thousands of years):

"2. Informal
a. To write or refine computer programs skillfully.
b. To use one's skill in computer programming to gain illegal or unauthorized access to a file or network"

now, obviously, this is modified slightly by the fact that you're hacking someone's brain.

can you refine someone's brain programming skillfully? yes. yes you can.
can you use your skills to gain "illegal or unauthorized access" to someone's brain "files" or "network"? yes. yes you can.

or what if we use this definition of hacking:

"(Electronics & Computer Science / Computer Science) to manipulate a computer program skilfully, esp, to gain unauthorized access to another computer system"

can you manipulate some form of tools skillfully, especially to gain unauthorized access to someone's brain? why yes. you can do that, too.

how about:

"hack - fix a computer program piecemeal until it works; "I'm not very good at hacking but I'll give it my best""

can you fix someone's brain piecemeal until it works (using computers and such to do the work, no less)? sure can. that's in the setting too.

now, as it turns out, there are a ridiculous number of different ways the word "hack" can be used. so i feel compelled to check here:

you are referring to the use of hack to mean manipulating computers/programs to do what you want to do, not necessarily using the approved/authorized way, and not necessarily with the permission of the person who would otherwise control the computer/program, right?

i mean, you're not talking about, say, "unskilled person - a person who lacks technical training", or "hack - a tool (as a hoe or pick or mattock) used for breaking up the surface of the soil", or "hack - a car driven by a person whose job is to take passengers where they want to go in exchange for money" or "hack - a politician who belongs to a small clique that controls a political party for private rather than public ends" by any chance? or one of the several other possible definitions?

because unless you're talking about one of those, i really don't see how you can argue that the ability to essentially "hack" someone's brain doesn't exist in shadowrun. the original "hackers" were people who used a bloody tape recorder to fool the telephone system computer into thinking they'd paid for a call when they hadn't. there are even "social hacks" where you manage to fool a person into giving you login information or sensitive information you can use to exploit a system (like what kind of hardware software they are running, etc).

if you can't figure out some way to use the multitude of tools available to you to "hack" someone's brain without it being instantaneous and via the matrix, that just means you haven't managed to work out the part where you get around the stuff people put in place to prevent it from happening because it's unauthorized... not that it is impossible to do so. a hack where you have to sneak into the facility and spend some time cracking into the local systems not less of a hack just because you couldn't do it over the matrix in a short amount of time.

you could kidnap the target. you could sneak in while they're asleep, apply a hot sim module, and then get to work. you could fool them into using a device attached to a hot sim module. you could use what limited tools are available even when they're using a cold sim module. you could fool them into showing up for a therapy session where a PAB is used on them (and you could even get *paid* by them to do it). you could use a technomancer and drag someone into their resonance node, where they may or may not be able to have PAB software running (so far as i can tell, it's GM discretion at best), but where they can definitely apply all kinds of other forms of control on the person. i'm sure there are plenty of ways i haven't even thought of yet, but which could be used, if you actually get off your butt and plan the hack instead of wanting it to fall into your lap like manna from heaven (which actually didn't drop into anybody's lap either, truth be told). not all of these methods are equally subtle. not all of them are equally easy for everyone (as will often be the case with difficult tasks in general, having a pornomancer friend can make this sort of thing a lot easier to do). but they exist. it is possible to make the hack happen, in spite of the fact that most targets will not be sitting on the matrix with a hot sim module running, with a cranial PAB unit installed.

So you're saying I can upgrade and repair programs and devices using the Hacking skill? Awesome! No, wait, it doesn't to that, it's only good for Informal (b), and even there it is rather limited because it is using illicit programs to that end, not programming per se (because different skill).

Maybe I should clarify that I was thinking in the (reasonably well defined) limits of SR4 rules, which reasonably well define what is what in this setting, not the impossibly broad general definition of hacking. Of course, this being essentially a rules decision, I just took that as a given.

Well, if we could set the "True Scotsman" debate aside for just a bit? I'd be ever so thankful.

ok. so tell me then... if i infiltrate a corporate facility that is cut off from the matrix, and then attempt to gain access to the corporation's systems while pretending to be a regular employee over the course of several hours...

is it hacking, or is it not hacking? because the complaints you've raised about the time involved and the requirement for direct access would imply that as far as you're concerned, that isn't hacking. but i have a hard time believing you actually think that way when it comes to computers. which is why it confuses me that you would think that way when it comes to brainhacking.

The infiltration? No.


It's hacking as soon as you gain access to the computer via a network or direct connection (in that case: why?), using hacking skills. In case of an isolated system, it is often more prudent to just remove the data storage for Johnson's computer forensics expertes to play with (infiltrate a corp, steal a datachip), which is not hacking, as established above. Infiltrating a secure, off the grid facility and then suddenly attacking it via the network it's not on is actually a strange way to go about a datasteal.

So your basically arguing semantics. Because it doesn't use any of the skills in the hacking skill group...
So what is it when your hacking a system and editing access logs/data feeds? your using edit, which uses the computer skill...not a hacking skill...

or when you hack by targeting a system with a virus...that you made yourself using the software skill...not a hacking skill

and any of your personafix/PAB programs rely heavily on the software to actually make meaningful changes to the target "system"

you're on the corp site because they have a network that is not on the public one. you still have to hack in, unless you've got legitimate login information. i can't help but suspect at this point you're being deliberately obtuse, though... you seem to keep on coming up with these utter BS scenarios that you insert into the ones i've described, because the ones i describe are inconvenient for you.

but i believe we've established that requiring direct access does not determine whether or not something is hacking.
and i believe we've also established that being instant or not does not determine whether or not something is hacking.

and yet, somehow, because you have to gain direct access to a person, and you cannot do it instantly, it isn't hacking.

you know what, at this point, i'm done with the discussion. i'm pretty confident at this point that:

- you've made up your mind to stubbornly cling to your point of view, no matter what.
- anyone following along who doesn't have the exact same mindset as you will be able to tell that brainhacking has in fact been in shadowrun since 1st edition.

i've no reason to continue, and you're now just wasting my time.

Wow. The lack of self-reflection in this post is hilarious and amazing.


Who am I to criticise people for their beliefs?


I'm tired of having to explain. It's always me explaining this, you coming up with bullshit scenarios, straw men and baseless claims, and then want me to reiterate what I already told you several times. Scroll up and read, or don't.


Good for you. So am I. Of course, long posts staing you're done discussing and then keeping on discussing how this is wasting your time, is, again, hilarious.


The system's already hacked then?

Guys, can we perhaps table the brain hack thing? I hope to have more speculation about Fastjack and not have the thread locked.

Let's presume Fastjack is on his way out either because of nature taking it's toll, the ghost of captain chaos, dragons or whatever... Who would replace him?
Who would inherent Jackpoint?
Who would sit down and tell us about the things that passed?
Who would be the goddamn best hackdecker there bloody well is!
There you go, plenty to speculate

As has been discussed in other threads already, Mungo is perfect for the role. Mungo iz 1337 hackr.

I would laugh if Netcat took over, because Clockwork's brain would explode.

Shadowrun 5 - After Dragons. An exciting new supplement about Technomancers, the new Supersues.