it's not in the rules for materialized spirits. it's in the rules for the entire astral plane, which is what a spirit sees even while manifested, because they're still dual-natured and are therefore using astral perception. and why would it be stupid? the astral plane is different. it has many completely different laws from the physical plane in other respects, and indeed the rules for visibility and 'light' are completely different. you don't use the standard spectrum of light in the astral, why would it matter if a given material allows the standard spectrum of light to pass through or not? the question is "does this object allow astral 'light' to pass through unimpeded", and the answer is "no, it doesn't". and there's nothing unreasonable about that, any more than the fact that you can float right through that same window on the astral plane is unreasonable. different plane, different natural laws.

I think you're twisting the wording to support your position. If spirits had such limited, constantly impeded perception while manifested on the physical plane, they'd be essentially useless and no one would bother summoning them. It only makes sense for them to be able to see as well as anyone else in the physical world, even if they can also see the astral plane as well.

I discussed your previous post with our GM last night and we had a good laugh about it. So while we don't agree with your interpretation of the rules in this situation, we have added a house rule.

"Dual-Natured critters, expressly including materialized spirits, can see normally in the physical world, in addition to their perception of the astral plane."

And there goes that little bit of nonsense.

Why? It makes perfect sense. Astral space isn't meat space. It makes sense you can't see through shadows and that everything in meat space leaves a shadow in astral. And just because a spirit can't see through glass doesn't mean a spirit is suddenly useless. So they can't snipe a guy through a window, drive a car, or read a book. That doesn't mean that's the only reason you summon a spirit.

Anyway, there is a way you can get around this. make a series of levers with what direction you want the spirit to go in. Have some awaken moss ink or something that does exist on the astral. And have a rigger control how the levers move to give orders to the spirit.

But honestly, I think it'd be easier if you bot a rigger with a gyrocopter or something else like that. This way you can have guns, air support, and transportation with all the sensors you need. But if you really want remote control spirits...its an interesting idea, but it doesn't seem super practical to me.

If you need a houserule for your idea to work ...
While I find the initial proposal intriguing and creative, I found the amount of time for you to get condescending to others after them pointing out what's flawed, baffling.

Sure. Propose a problem. People do not think it will work the way you think it works. Obvious conclusion: They're smallminded and deserve to be derided.

Make the arrow thing just pop out of a stick, and it works again, btw. Still not a really useful thing to have.

Spirits can read in Canon, though. After all, Buttercup enjoys Comic Books.

Really? A comic printed with awaken ink maybe?

Really, and not awakened ink. Classic Comics. IIRC, Dunklezahn left her his entire collection.

I see spirits interacting in the Physical much like regular People who have Astral Sight. They can turn it on and off. After all, there are spirit types who have Enhanced Vision capabilities. Can't have that if all you have is astral sight, and in fact, I am pretty sure that they all have the 5 basic senses, otherwise they could not function at all. *shrug*

There is a lot of contention on that, though.

It's sheer exasperation at the depths of some of the endless nit-picking. Some people here have had some good ideas and comments; I'm re-evaluating my original pure-tech build based on comments from DMiller, for instance. But some seemingly just want to come up with questionable rules interpretations just to nay-say a new idea, for whatever reason.

Yes, this. That's pretty much my contention.

Well, Runners Companion states that PC Free Spirits cannot read computer displays. (which is really stupid)

Something I've also thought was totally ridiculous for years now. Can a spirit see the light from me waving around a flashlight? If yes, why can they not read a computer screen?

Ok, I've looked this up in SR4A Core Rules, Running Wild, and Runner's Companion. And...it looks like you are quite correct!

I guess we missed that little bit. Ah well, I suppose the ghouls in our Sixth World have a better deal than their canon cousins, and are thus more dangerous.

Personally I rule (and I have no rules backup for that) that a spirit has astral sight only unless it materializes. Then it gains normal vision (or dual vision) and thus can read or look through windows.

But if you want to stay with the rules, Buttercup liking comics could be the same thing as the spirit in the core book (?) chipping blank chips and still be happy as it is all about emulating metahumans and not actually benefiting (or even understanding) the act itself.

Exactly. If it's still hanging out fully on the astral plane, sure, all normal astral sight penalties apply - that makes perfect sense. But if it materializes into the physical world, then it only makes sense for it to be able to see normally enough to get around.

Right (I meant materialize as you correctly assumed btw.)

No, the rare collection of comic books Buttercup inherited from Dunkelzahn (it's in his will, after all).
While you could argue that this might be a jest on his side...

As far as I got dual-natured critters and especially spirits, I always figured that on the physical plane they get "natural" senses as well as keeping their astral vision. Heck, some spirits even get the critter power Enhanced Senses (Low-Light Vision), spirits of beasts, right in the core rulebook.
Based on this: Sure, astral vision ends at the next glass plane. Natural vision gets past that.

Back on topic: I'd be really interested how the drones you want to replace with spirits got so very expensive. What did you add in?
DMiller posted a setup that, while going up to 100.000 bucks, already consists of 11 drones. The GTS Tower can also always choose to stay out of sight, not participating in surveillance, only providing a "base camp" for the Dragonflies. The Dragonflies, on the other hand, are reasonably cheap.
They can, as far as I know, also be the targets of Concealment. That drives their perception penalty to -8: -4 (chameleon coating and thermal insulation, if you add it) + -4 (concealment, spirit force 4), and that's for spotting a drone the size of an insect. So much for blowing stuff out of the sky.
You can also carry those drones on yourself, for coordination's sake.

Pirated autosofts and pilots, if you use only one or two models, can really lower the prize. Well, of course, pirated softs in a legit business... Were those software costs the problem? If you posted one of those drones, we could try to slim it down.

Aside from that, I think your idea can work, enough services from the spirits provided. I still would go both ways, as concealed insect-sized drones can be a whole lot sneakier than man-sized spirits with a sensor package the size of a bread box. Well, my routine solution to in-game problems tends to be "more drones!", so...

Of course, concealed drones might run into trouble with wards as they cannot see it. You could mostly avoid that by mapping those out beforehand by searching for the via "Enhanced Detect Magic" or the "Magic Sense" adept power and correcting drone routes accordingly. Spirits cannot get on the other side of wards easily ether way.

And another idea: If you want to make the spirits smaller and sneakier, think about shapechanging them And then outfit them with a sensor collar.

Just for clarification: Do you expect your "scouts" to be routinely intercepted and attacked, thus taking your route to minimize costs after the spirit is banished? I think a lot of people here still expect to have a scout battalion that actually makes it rather unscathed and thus has low recurring costs, so they plan accordingly.

Just read through Dunklezahn's Will.

I can't but help to think he might have been slightly facetious with this request. Maybe he very well knew she couldn't read them, and there is some kind of hidden message kept in them he knew she'd never see, but knew her love of the art form would keep them safe at the least. Eh...dragons...

Heh, yeah, materialize/manifest - I've occasionally forgotten which is which.

Yes, but now you have a big air spirit carrying around your drone. So while the drone is tiny and has chameleon coating and magical concealment, the spirit is big(ger) and only hidden through its concealment power which in the end makes it as detectable as the drone was before adding stuff (maybe even more).

Also I do not exactly know what your group goes up against as monster hunters but from the name I expect that you encounter critters with astral perception more often than guys with good radar sensors.

But aren't dragons dual-natured as well? If he could read them, why couldn't she?

Nope, the critter needs the power Dual Natured to be dual natured. Dragons' don't have that. Though dragons have a magic rating, so I assume they can astrally project and other similar magician abilities.

By the way, why use drones anyway? Can't you just use a tricked out comlink and let the spirit carry it around?

Also, no idea if this is legal, couldn't you command the spirit to "Go wherever the drone tells you to for the next X hours" and then control it by voice? A whispered voice out of a tiny speaker some several 100 meters in the air won't get you detected.

SR4A Core Rules, p. 303 - Dracoforms, Common Powers, Innate Powers: Dual Natured

That said, we've apparently got non-standard issue ghouls in our campaign, so if the dragons in yours aren't dual-natured, I guess I've got no room to complain.

No, that's not what I suggested. I don't see the need for a spirit to carry the drone once it is concealed. Spirit applies concealment, then stays behind and keeps it sustained while the drones go to work.

Now, I still think dual-natured critters can perceive both planes, and my quote backs that up, I think.
Problem for ghouls is just that, while being dual-natured, their transition to flesh-eaters of the unsavory kind also blinds them.

Whoops, produced a double post. Sorry.

Oh, I just missed that. I guess dragons' can't see like normal people after all. Or maybe you are right and spirit and dragons might be able to see physical space.

It makes sense for ghouls to not, because they don't have eyes, so in order to see they either need to astrally perceive or get cyber eyes.

Maybe dragons and other critters with eyes can see normal space, and maybe spirits can't because they don't have eyes. But then how are we to know which ones can and can't?

I usually assume they can unless otherwise noted (for instance, "Ghouls are blind", they do have eyes, as far as I remember). Aside from that, it's all the "It's Magic"-simplification for me.

That, and "Street Magic" specifically states that spirits cannot perceive AR. I never liked that part as I think it was meant to read "use DNIs", but here we go. I can still work with that.

Yes, saying that they can't use DNI as a materialized spirit lacks an actual, biological nervous system, which the DNI is designed to interface with, that makes perfect sense. Saying that they can't see anything when they look at a computer screen is rather ridiculous.

There are flesh-eaters of the savory kind? O.o

They are all savory (unless you candy them).

so does that make you a flesh-eater-eater?

Correct, ghouls are physically blind (as part of their transformation). They cannot see on the Physical.

I just went and re-read the sections in SR4A, Street Magic (2nd Printing), and Runner's Companion.

In a nutshell, being Dual-Natured (either innately or by some power) simply makes you able to interact with both worlds. Astral Perception makes you dual-natured and it gives you a real-world penalty (-2) to do real-world actions while using Astral Perception.

For spirits and other things that are dual-natured (temp or permanent), they do not have that penalty. This means that Dragons can read a comic book if they know the language it was written in. In fact, the text (Free Spirit Perception, RC, Pg 92) says they can interact with the Physical world NORMALLY (emphasis mine) and use Perception as normal.

The only place where that is explicitly negated is in the PC Free-Spirits section of Runner's Companion and that's just to AR, electronic projections, and simsense. I believe the RAI was to ensure that PC FS didn't get augmentations, go surfing the Matrix like a decker or hacker, etc. There is simply no reason to ban them from reading books, signs, etc. Seeing light is a matter of photons striking a photo-receptor. If spirits cannot see light, then many of their powers/uses are broken/need re-work. Thus the simplest solution is allowing them to see the Physical Plane without issue when properly Materialized.

The funny thing is, any time you have a power that lets you cross the Physical / Astral boundary (in either direction), you get the ability to perceive normally in that other realm. It's been that way since SR1. I'm not certain what is so difficult about that concept except perhaps some ham-fisted word usage & editing.

To the OP: Interesting concept on using a spirit wirelessly. I am amused.

Yeah, that makes sense. Materializing must work like the inverse of astral perception. When things in physical space astrally perceive they become dual natured but see astral space. Things in the astral when materializing gain "physical sight" and become dual natured. That seems perfectly logical to me. And things that are dual natured normally can just flipflop between which ever plane they want to see...except ghouls...

The reason spirits can't interact with AR and the like might have to do with Resonance not being compatible with spirit's understanding. Resonance and magic aren't compatible after all. And if AR is being constructed by Resonance and not technology per se, that's why they can't see it or interact with it. It'd make sense based off fluff.

Lolwut. Augmented reality is not a Resonance phenomenon. It is generated by technology, specifically a commlink in conjunction with a display device (contacts, glasses, goggles, or cybereyes). I don't know where you got this idea that it springs from Resonance.

The entire Matrix is a layer of the Resonance realm, just the layer that mundanes can access. Spirits not being mundane can't even access the first layer of it. Or that's how I'm trying to think of it. AR is made from the same stuff that technomancers interact with, in an abstract sense. It's silly, sure, but magic is silly.

AR being a construct of Resonance is something I never thought of. That is an ingenious way of explaining it away in a sensible manner!

The Realms and their Connections
Resonance - Matrix - Physical - Astral - Metaplanes

In a strange way, it all makes sense. You cannot go to the Resonance Realms until you have Submerged. Same thing for going to the Metaplanes. No Initiations, no metaplanar trip for you.

Because we are native to the Physical Realm, we can reach out and touch the adjoining realms with a minor amount of effort. To go further, we have to significantly tie ourselves to that particular realm (initiate or submerge).

Spirits as natives to the Astral can easily go to the Metaplanes and with reluctance, to the Physical. They cannot do much with the Matrix because it's two realms removed from their understanding / capability. Likewise, I would suspect a Sprite cannot do anything with magic in any meaningful manner because they cannot perceive it.

That is an interesting way to explain it, nice.

I have always reasoned that spirits are unable to understand computer displays because it lacks the emotional and physical backing. Similar to why writing and such gets garbled in the Astral (Even the astral shadows of writing is illegible in the astral, it get's garbled). While materialized, spirits can see and understand more physical objects, maybe, but computer displays and other communication coming through the matrix is yet another level of detachment that they can't truly overcome as entirely magical creatures. I see it as just another example of the disconnect (and incompatibility) between magic and technology, and how they struggle (and mostly fail) to interact well.

Yeah, I'd think something like a alchera (Street Magic p115) is like AR. So say something like a machine sprite might not even be able to see them using sensors, but of course there is no fluff or crunch to say this is the case, but I think it makes sense. If Spirits can't see AR, I'd think Sprites can't see astral constructs. Should be interesting if we start to see technology get to the point where holograms can be physical, maybe sprites can manifest in to the real world, but never see any spirits and visa versa.

Spirits not being able to read computer screens is dumb. The whole concept of Resonance is also dumb. Use one dumb idea to handwave the dumbness of another? Sure, why the fuck not.

*recursive facepalm*

Its no dumber then magic.

The idea is that technology has become so advance that its beyond our understanding and out of our control now. That's why it doesn't act like real world technology. That's why there are things that cannot be explained that happens on the Matrix. That's kind of a cyberpunk trope. And technology and magic not mixing is a fantasy trope. I fail to see why keeping both of these tropes in a fantasy cyberpunk setting seems so offensive to you.

i REALLY like this idea, I'm totally stealing it!

one minor nitpick, spirits are native to the metaplanes i think,similarly for sprites.

*edit* the more I think about this idea, the more I like it. Spirits (native to the metaplanes) can access the astral very easily, as it's just one "step" away. Accessing the physical is much harder because it's farther away, and they're only able to do so in a limited fashion (mat/poss, etc). Going 3 steps away is just too difficult for them. This can be reversed for sprites too.

I think it might be simpler than all of this.

I see that the spirit lacks the context to understand the electrons bombarding the display device (be it a monitor, AR, or VR) they can detect the presence but understanding the content is what prevents them from reacting to the information properly. Spirits and the Metaplanes in which they 'naturally' reside is based on emotive content and raw Ideas (Fire, Air, Water, Death, Hearth, and such).

While the Spirit can perceve the noises metahumanity makes, what they understand is the emotion and iedas that the generator/sender intends the noises to convey. Buy the reverse concept; Sprites are the hyper-logic step-children of the Spirits, as it were, and can understand the language/logic but the emotion of the noise is without a translation matrix as it were.

In fact, Resonance is considerably dumber than magic. Technology out of control is fine; technology spontaneously developing its own pocket universe is both ludicrous and moronic. The Matrix is not a separate plane of existence! You are flying in the face of both established SR canon and the source material it draws on, from Neuromancer on down. I'm perfectly fine with SR technology not acting like RL technology: it isn't RL technology. Resonance is the Shadowrun equivalent of midi-chlorians: it's an answer to a question that nobody asked, and is a particularly dumb and pointless answer on top of that.

I understand you hate the Resonance, and nothing I say will change your mind

BUT I feel that Neuromancer has something approaching the Resonance. Look at the Finn character, showing up after he's dead as some kind of AI. At the end of Neuromancer, they go "somewhere" to meet an alien AI. Look at the loa as they're presented - Mona has the biochips, she's basically a technomancer that gets possessed by free sprites.

All these could be interpreted as Resonance I think.

Finn's little robo-bunker is explicitly a ROM construct, a recording of the Finn's personality, same as the Dixie Flatline's construct that Case, Molly, and Armitage stole from Sense/Net in the first book. The loa are described (by Beauvoir in Count Zero, IIRC) as the shards/children of a merger between the alien AI and the AI that was, itself, the product of a merger between Wintermute and Neuromancer. The loa adopt the trappings of vodoun mysticism, but nowhere - nowhere - is there even a hint that they are anything other than software entities running, perhaps distributedly, on physical hardware. Mona's bioware is nothing more or less than a custom-built interface for the loa. Recall also that Bobby gets ridden by Baron Samedi in the climax of Count Zero.

You're really stretching. William Gibson's Sprawl trilogy definitely has themes of technology getting away from us, but it's still technology, not some bizarre magic-analogue that suddenly springs into being ex nihilo.